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Mineral Reminder & tips & discussion

Sligh1

Sligh1

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Hey guys, several folks have asked about minerals & what works, best prices, etc.
If you like minerals, see the benefits like I do AND like to get the best deals on the best quality, here's my thoughts & tips.....
-Get your minerals out NOW- you should have had em out a month or more ago BUT don't wait. Deer need to replenish vitamins, minerals in their skeletal structure and that stress comes with winter, etc. Before they start growing (which they are starting now) they need to up those nutrients so they are not taking from skeletal structure. Get them out NOW! Mine are already being torn to pieces. Guys that put minerals out in August and September are really, pretty much, wasting their time and money. Hopefully it's around for next spring when they need it though.

-OK, I've tested about a dozen varieties simply for quality of ingredients BUT as importantly- deer preference. I've put varieties next to each other to see which they preferred. SO FAR... So far I like Land O Lakes Pro-Phos 8 beef mineral. The deer prefer them much more handily than the hunting store brands AND they are a FRACTION of the price. Some of the hunting places have minerals with deer pictures on them that are like $10 for 5 lbs bags!!! That's $100 for 50 lbs! Pro-Phos 8 is about $20 for 50 lbs. Pro Phos 12 has a bit more phosphorus and it's a bit more. Get non-medicated if you were to look into this route. Don't buy something with tons of salt- if someone wants the ingredients to a good mineral mix, let me know. Not saying there isn't something better than Pro-Phos 8 BUT I haven't found it yet. Some of the expensive brands are also mainly salt too!!! *Nannyslayer has some liquid mineral he was telling me about- I'm getting some from him.

You can see the top few have some search results. Search around on their site for locations near you, can email them too....
http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&q=pro-phos+8%2C+mineral%2C+land+o+lakes&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=c99decee79d1fe4a

-If you wanted pro-phos 8, search online for land o lakes or purina dealers by you. Some may carry Rangeland 8 which they claim is the same or similar BUT I am not sure on that one. Do NOT get minerals with Altosid (medicated).

-I like 50 lbs of granular per location and I refill every month for next couple months, I have a lot of deer though. I also throw out Pro-phos 8 as a 40 lbs block with the 50 lbs of granular- I put out 1 block and 1 bag @ each location, I refill with bags only as months go on.

-Some of my best areas for pics are mineral licks in mid to late July. From my experience, they stop using minerals around Sept 1st.

-I believe the minerals are a nice part of the puzzle that has increased deer mass, amount of kickers/NT points, etc. I also believe they help with parasite resistance, milk for fawns, nutrition in general, etc. I believe that even in IA, deer lack in certain nutrients depending on the area. These are just my opinions. I've compared the 2.5's -4.5's on my farm when I bought it compared to 8 years later- absolutely believe antler size & health have gone up a lot and part of that puzzle is minerals, IMO.

-I put out about 1-2 licks per 80 acres BUT I can't remember what's suggested???

What do you guys use that works awesome AND what's the price you're paying??? I surely think there could be something better out there- I'd love to hear what other folks are having success with- please mention costs, etc too. Tips, ideas, suggestions, thoughts?

GET YOUR MINERALS OUT NOW!!!! :)
 
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I've compared the 2.5's -4.5's on my farm when I bought it compared to 8 years later- absolutely believe antler size & health have gone up a lot and part of that puzzle is minerals, IMO.
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I'm going to respectfully disagree with you Skip...the differences you have found are because you built an awesome habitat/management program. 8 years ago deer were being shot randomly on that farm but under proper management they responded by being allowed to mature and attracting more deer to your quality habitat. :way:

It is not possible to GROW big deer... age and genetics are the only possible ways to do this. If it were possible to feed livestock or people anything and create giants...we would be doing it. Shaq is a genetic freak of nature for instance and there is not a known feed, vitamins or minerals that can re-create that.

Giant whitetails are killed every year in Saskatchewan that have never ever tasted minerals or food plots and the same is true of Iowa whitetails.

Good quality food sources contain all the necessary minerals that deer need but having said that...there isn't a thing wrong with offering free choice minerals.

Proving that adding minerals effects the growth rate of antlers or horns on any animals is nearly impossible because there are too many other factors.

I always put out mineral but I don't do it because I think it will make any substantial difference in antler growth.

Just my thoughts...not meant to be argumentative...just food for thought in keeping things in perspective ;)

BTW...deer and livestock hate minerals...they LOVE salt :)

Page down to the last post in this thread to see a few more thoughts on this subject as well...Getting Started - Mineral Licks
 
See, this is one area I actually disagree with you! :).....

Let's say you have captive deer (or wild deer, doesn't matter for this example) named "WILLY" that on a "regular" diet will produce a 200" rack with 16 points at 4.5 years old- let's just say you MAGICALLY knew that information.... OK- then you give him AMPLE minerals, nutrients, calcium, phosphorus, etc. These things are going to keep him HEALTHIER, they are going to help him deal with parasites, stress, digestion AND they are going to make-up the building blocks of antler development and skeletal structure. So, instead of growing the 200" 16 point rack at 4.5 years old on a "REGULAR DIET" (Which I strongly argue is lacking in some areas of nutrition)- he gets ALL and more than he needs of calcium, phosphorus, selenium, B, A, etc- he will grow a bigger rack, have a healthier body and IN MY STRONG OPINION/BELIEF- he would - let's say in this made up AVERAGE example - grow a 212" rack- WHATEVER- he will be bigger on average.
It's SOMEWHAT LIKE HUMANS.... You don't get your 1000 mg of vitamin D and your 1400 mg of calcium (I forget actual numbers) - there's a good chance many woman and some men will develop osteoporosis in their lifetime (thinning bone). Now, if a HUMAN does not SUPPLEMENT that calcium and vitamin D OR take on unusually high levels of milk, cheese, sunlight, etc- they will have a very high rate of Osteoporosis- VERY HIGH- our natural diet is generally not enough (OK- I worked in the Biphosphonate Osteoporosis market for 5 years). Same thing with deer- there's areas ANYWHERE in Iowa that are lacking in many nutrients (and heck, even the land is lacking in all sorts of nutrients- why we have to supplement the farm land with so much fertilizer, etc). And same reason why humans take vitamins, captive animals get vitamins, minerals and supplements. I get there's folks out there that don't want to "supplement" wild animals (not going there here) but I find it hard to deny there isn't a benefit.

Now, does this mean that a buck in Iowa can't grow giant with age & genetics? Of course not- BUT, with better nutrition- does it mean that buck COULD potentially be 10-20" bigger for example if he had premium nutrition? Absolutely. Why in Canada, it usually takes an extra year or 2 of age class to get the quality of bucks we see here at 4.5 years old. And why southern canada with ag areas produce better quality bucks than the big timbered areas- NUTRITION. Put the same deer in a poor nutrition area VS an Ag-wonderland of prime soils and the size of rack they grow will be SUBSTANTIALLY different.

Now, you are CORRECT that a big part of the plan is simply managing a herd, adding tons of food, better quality FORAGE and most importantly- getting deer to mature age. Minerals are simply ONE piece of the puzzle like I had mentioned above. The deer grow antlers from certain nutrients and I guarantee you many of the deer are lacking in some or all of those categories. Even if it's just health/stress that you help- that in turn helps with racks. Just a piece of the puzzle. I still to this day know my WHOLE management plan is the reason for increased size BUT I'm unbiasedly convinced minerals play a PART. It helps cows, it helps humans, it helps plants and it helps deer.

Geez Paul, we don't disagree on much BUT every once in a while it's funny to discuss a different point of view :)
 
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I think you guys are spliting hairs. Both of you agree minerals help improve the overall health of the deer. Healthy deer allowed to mature will be able to reach their true genetic potential. I have to say that I have also noticed increased NT points/stickers and mass in my deer herd since adding minerals compared to what I had seen prior to minerals being implemented. But I also started food plots and TSI at about the same time. So what is causing it? The deer always had corn, beans and alfalfa. So I don't think adding clover to that mix or increased browsing food was the deciding factor for increased mass and NT points. I don't know for sure what is causing the increase. Probably a little bit of all the management practices I have implemented. Regardless of which practice, it's working so I'm not gonna change any of it. Minerals IMO are a valuable part of any whitetail management program.
 
See, this is one area I actually disagree with you!
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lol :D

I should have been from Missouri cause I say "sho me"...;)

Neither here nor there since I also use minerals but I say it's unprovable and therefore remains theory...so there :thrwrck: :moon: :D:D

I ought to have a farm full of 200" deer as much of this stuff as I have put out...:rolleyes:

MineralandTMsalt.jpg
 
I wanted to add a few thoughts on this subject because I try to avoid sharing opinion here and instead stick to facts. In regards to nutrition...in Iowa and most of the midwest nutrition is a non-factor because with few exceptions we grow some of the highest quality forages anywhere in the world. Those forages contain for the most part all the necessary minerals required by wild free roaming deer.

I have had the pleasure of being able to visit with several biologists who are paid to help landowners do every conceivable thing to raise the largest whitetail bucks they can. Those same biologists also agree that assuming we have normal forage, we cannot grow bigger deer and if their are not genetically superior deer there now...there never will be.

I used to milk 130 dairy cows that produced 80-100#'s of milk daily and I fed them neary 3 tons of home grown forage and grain all of which was tested repeatedly. To that daily mixture I added any minerals that the forage mix might be lacking and that amounted to a few pounds at best. Point being that because I kept my fields fertilized to produce high quality, high protein forages, they in turn contained everything those cattle needed and they were producing far more in a day then any whitetail would in a lifetime.

In some areas of the country where forage quality is poor or soils are nutrient deficient then supplementation might be helpful, but if soil nutrients are corrected and the quality of forage is high...no benefits will be seen from adding minerals.

These links are just a few that verify this...

from this link...Mineral Supplementation

A classic study on the mineral needs of deer was conducted at Penn State University in the 1950s (French et al. 1956). In this study, researchers did detect a difference in yearling buck antler development between supplemented and unsupplemented groups. However, these herds were fed a nutritionally deficient diet below what most whitetails would have access to in the wild.Furthermore, when the same deer were examined the following year as 2.5–year–olds, no differences were detected between the two groups.


In a similar study conducted at Auburn University (Causey 1993), researchers tried to detect differences in body and antler size between an unsupplemented and supplemented group. The difference in this study and the Penn State study was that both herds were fed a nutritionally complete diet. In addition, one group was provided a commercial mineral supplement. Over a 4–year period the researchers were unable to detect any differences between the two deer herds.


A Louisiana study (Schultz and Johnson 1991) compared supplemented and unsupplemented wild herds in similar habitats. Although problems always arise when studying wild populations, they were unable to show any differences in body size or antler development using mineral supplementation.
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Mineral Supplements

research has shown that mineral supplements provide little if any positive effect on antler size or body weight of wild free-ranging deer.
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I could go on but these are the facts and they leave little doubt that in reality mineral supplements in most of the midwest would be unlikely to have any effect at all on antler development.

I share this not to discourage anyone from offering free choice minerals but rather to get you to focus on the factors that will really make a significant difference.

As landowners we can keep soil nutrition and PH levels high and grow quality forage and browse that naturally provide all our whitetails need.

Managing for mature animals is something we can do but the only way to get superior genetics is to buy a farm where they exist...that is a hard cold reality that most of us don't wish to face. It's not an option for me yet it may be for others and I know people who have bought and sold farms until they found the one with the right genetics and then manage it to maintain those superior genes.

Establish mineral licks and have fun doing it...I do! Use them for trail cam surveys and be certain they aren't lacking anything but be realistic as to the value of minerals and keep your focus on the things that have a far greater effect....;)
 
No question genetics is huge, but just as important is age. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
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Putting out minerals is the same as planting high dollar clover<o:p></o:p>
If there is a chance it will help and your budget allows……no harm done.<o:p></o:p>
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Putting out salt you know nothing will be gained…..that’s logic<o:p></o:p>
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Also know you will never have 200" deer shooting 140-160” deer no matter the mineral of food.
 
I think stress has more to do with it than anything. Do your part in doing some predator hunting, provide them with ideal cover, and don't pressure them and I think then they have their best opportunity to grow to their potential. IMO that's why caged deer have the ability to grow so much bigger... no worries and always have a full belly.
 
And why southern canada with ag areas produce better quality bucks than the big timbered areas- NUTRITION
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Actually Skip, in Sk, aside from the wr, most of the top end bucks have came from areas that are predominantly timber.

Good thread, I personally just toss out trace mineral salt, it's the pics I'm in it for. I'm not sure what to think in terms of what a mineral program will do to antler growth, even if proven to add a certain % I'm pretty sure I'd keep my money to use on other things. No ill thoughts to anyone who does otherwise just a personal choice.
 
SaskGuy said:
Actually Skip, in Sk, aside from the wr, most of the top end bucks have came from areas that are predominantly timber.
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OK- I stand corrected on that, for some reason I thought the Ag-areas were where the highest quality bruisers came from.


Now, in response to Dbltree- I can find very little for studies & I've known that for a long time. You can find lots of information on benefits of minerals if you do google search BUT I have a hard time finding studies- I haven't seen the studies you site, interesting though.
I do know that folks will never be able to prove their clover plots are adding inches to deer. No one will be able to prove their 10 acres of beans they leave for deer will leave them less stressed, better fed and bigger racks. No one on my place will prove that increased rain fall in a year which provides better forage, more forage and in turn bigger racks. And the same goes for minerals, I can't prove that provivding the building blocks for nutrition, stress reduction, building blocks of antler growth, etc will provide larger racks. I just have a strong belief that ALL of those things I listed will help and grow bigger racks. I'm sure if we dropped 1 million bucks in some scientific study of the benefit of clover, alfalfa, leaving standing crops, rain fall, MINERAL supplementation, soil nutrients- we would see a major difference in the racks created. I want to read the studies above later and will a little more depth- I'm not dismissing them.

Here's another reason I believe if we put enough into research, we'd find a major benefit.... We have COUNTLESS studies on nutrients/vitamins/minerals in humans, cows, plants, etc. We can show in every animal in almost any situation there's major deficiancies- why almost ANYTHING out there takes supplementation for proper health. Yes, IA has great nutrients BUT how often are farmers testing their soil finding they are way to low on PHOSPHOROUS for example? Quite often. That goes for all sorts of other nutrients as well & ESPECIALLY TRACE MINERALS.
Again, there's lots of different angles the minerals help.... FOR EXAMPLE, I don't think you'd argue that minerals you put out help with PARASITE RESISTANCE would you? (one of a TON of examples beyond just supplementing antler ingredients) There's TONS of benefits minerals do that allow for less stress, better nutrition, better health in general. OK- so if you're deer are less stressed and in better general health, wouldn't you SUSPECT that's going to lead to better antler creation when growing time comes around? The same reason why folks who leave standing corn and standing beans in the winter will have larger bucks in my opinion- less stress, better health. Also unique how the areas in IA with far better feed have the bucks carrying their antlers FAR LATER in the spring (like March) where poor nutrition areas without lots of food have them dropping like flies in January and February- I see that difference all over and it's night & day.

So, at a minimum, stress and general health can greatly be enhanced by minerals - parasites, digestion, skeletal structure, fertility, etc. There's vast differences in many parts of IA too for nutrition, food left around, fertilization, soil quality, soil minerals/nutrients, etc.

You're right, until I have a million bucks to drop in an IOWA located study on minerals and antler development, part of my thought process is a hypothesis BUT I know it's worked on my farm and I guess that's all that matters! :)

**HERE'S SOME TAKE-AWAY'S AND TID-BITS FROM THE STUDIES....

"Clearly minerals are important in antler development. Because of the large quantities of minerals required for antler growth, whitetails actually deposit calcium and phosphorous in their skeletons prior to the onset of antler growth and then transfer these minerals during active growth (Stephenson and Brown 1984). However, these body sources of calcium and phosphorous provide only a portion of that needed for optimum antler growth. The remainder must come directly from their diet while their antlers are actively growing. Therefore, supplementation of these minerals prior to and during antler growth may be beneficial. While deer have the ability to “stockpile” calcium and phosphorous, this is not true for the majority of other minerals found in antlers. As in humans, many “trace minerals” such as barium, aluminum, zinc, and strontium are toxic in large quantities and must be excreted from the deer’s body. As a result, these minerals must be consumed in very small quantities (parts per million) on a regular basis. Despite their presence in antlers, the role of trace minerals in antler growth is largely unknown."

"Research on several species of domestic livestock has documented numerous benefits of mineral supplementation including increased forage intake, improved forage digestion, and increased reproductive success. In contrast, most studies on mineral supplementation in whitetails have focused on the impacts on body weight and antler development."

"These studies suggest that in areas where soils are highly deficient in phosphorous and where additional phosphorous was not provided through fertilized food sources (e.g., food plots), phosphorous supplementation may increase antler growth." It's my strong opinion there's plenty of areas/forage/soil in IA that's highly phosphorous deficient- sure many areas get added/supplemented with fertilizer. BUT- think of 1/2 a deer's diet coming from forest browse & forage that will almost surely have major mineral deficiencies and all the other areas that don't get brought up to appropriate levels.

"The results of these studies suggest that mineral supplementation (especially calcium, phosphorous, and sodium) may provide some benefit in situations where deer are nutritionally deprived or areas with minerally–deficient soils."

***I will say, personally working in a field of NON-STOP STUDIES (medical field)- minerals and deer have about the poorest amount of studies you can find. 1, 2 or 3 small studies is NOT near the evidence we need to make any determinant. Medical field has thousands of studies on one topic and many disagree & are in so many different settings, finding different results and conflicting results. If we really wanted to do this right, you'd have several studies done in IOWA & take into account all the nutritional information for all locations and it would need to be followed for YEARS. For the time being, we don't have that kind of information.
 
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They come from all over really, the wr from agricultural predominantly for sure, of the 4 other 200" net typical, 3 came from heavily timbered areas as did all of the top 3 non typicals in our record books.
 
I couldn't tell you if it works but deer like it, we like pictures in the summer, therefore we put out minerals!:D

We couldn't get our hands on any Phos8 so I wrote down the ingredients it is made up of and went to Theisens to find the closest thing I could... came up with this bagged mineral. It is"Right Now Mineral : Onyx". One of the differences I noticed was molasses was way lower on the ingredients list. We'll see if the deer like it and how many more booners are around this fall... :D Looks like it is a littler higher on the trace minerals too.

Calcium - 12.5 to 14%
Phosphorus - 7%
Salt - 14-16.5%
Sodium - 5-6%
Magnesium - 2%
Sulfur - 0.1% - 6%
Potassium - 2%
Cobalt - 20 PPM
Copper - 2,000 PPM
Iodine - 200 PPM
Maganese - 4,000 PPM
Selenium - 26 PPM
Zinc - 4,500 PPM
Vitamin A - 200,000 iU/LB
Vitamin D - 20,000 iU/LB
Vitamin E - 200 iU/LB

I also saw their deer blocks and compared the ingredients on there to those in the bagged mineral I bought above. I noticed the deer blocks had crude protein, fat, and fiber in them. So I bought the Horse blocks next to the deer blocks... half the price... double the crude protein, fat, and fiber! :rolleyes: What does crude protein in the form of a mineral block do for deer, any guesses?
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Looks like a winner, keep posted on how the deer like it. what was the price and was it 50 lbs?
 
I like the 1st mineral you listed better at quick glance, 7% phosphorus VS 2%. Not sure on the protein?!?! As long as the deer like eating your mineral, the protein sure can't hurt!!!
 
Sligh1 said:
I like the 1st mineral you listed better at quick glance, 7% phosphorus VS 2%. Not sure on the protein?!?! As long as the deer like eating your mineral, the protein sure can't hurt!!!
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Ya, the crude protein was the only reason I got that one? Thought we'd mix it up. Going to put 1/2 of a 25lb "horsepower" block and 1/2 a 50lb bag of "Onyx" at each sight... we'll see how they like it.
 
Jordan, if you really get in a pickle and really want some Pro-Phos 8, I could get you some as I drive through from Des moines to Sioux City & above. I think that highway goes through Monona, Harrison, etc counties. You email Ted? Keep posted!
 
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