Acorns to Oaks!

[SDHunt24/7]

I have not been able to plant my seedlings so they are still in the rootmakers. SOme are having leaves turn brown and drop off. Is this heat related? I water routinely and add Miracle grow about once a week. Not real worried as this was just a small fun side project but was curious what went wrong. Bothering the Burr Oak more than the Northern reds.

I am having the same thing happen to some of my oak seedlings. They are planted in the rootmaker 18 cell trays from Big Rock. They look green and healthy one day and then the next time I check them the edges of the leaves are turning brown and falling off and the stem gets darker and brittle. I have had them in the garage on the very hot days so don't think its heat. I may have watered them too much. Could that cause this problem.

 

[letemgrow]

I am having the same thing happen to some of my oak seedlings. They are planted in the rootmaker 18 cell trays from Big Rock. They look green and healthy one day and then the next time I check them the edges of the leaves are turning brown and falling off and the stem gets darker and brittle. I have had them in the garage on the very hot days so don't think its heat. I may have watered them too much. Could that cause this problem.

Its very easy to over-water in those cells. I have ran a few tests and they can go 4 days or more without watering when the temps are in the 70s. How much have you been watering them?? I believe that is a very common problems for seedling mortality.

 

[dbltree]

I water mine twice daily and soak them done heavily or they dry out quickly and no plants have done anything but thrive, this year and last. I use Miracle Gro potting soil so perhaps it is different but I have found it impossible to over water mine.

They are also out in the hot sun and wind so not sure what is going on with the ones that are turning brown?

 

[DH1]

generally with most plants:
- if watered too much the leaves turn yellow
- if not watered enough leaves turn brown

 

[dbltree]

generally with most plants:
- if watered too much the leaves turn yellow
- if not watered enough leaves turn brown

I would agree...last year mine didn't get watered for a week in very hot dry weather and I really thought many of them died. The leaves turned brown and fell off but I started watering them like crazy and 95% of them sprouted new leaves and eventually came back!

The RM cells are very small and of course perforated making it impossible for them to "hold" water unless very heavy clay like soils are used. The potting mix soils are actually "soilless" and designed to absorb and retain moisture but in a vented container could never hold enough water to drown seedlings.

This is something we need to explore in depth and determine why some of us are finding different results?

How long can trees go between watering give the same soil medium in the same RM cells?

Is there a difference in growth if different soil mediums are used and varying amounts of water used?

Phil was kind enough to send me some Root Trapper bags and I took his advice and mixed up a more normal soil mixture. In those bags my Kazak and Concordia trees are thriving despite being outside in constant relentless flooding rains and I have left them for a week in hot dry weather without watering...very different of course then the tiny RM starting cells.

I have Eastern Gamagrass growing in the very small 32 cell RM cells and they can not last a day in hot dry weather without watering using the soilless potting mix.

The whole idea behind the RM cells is to grow the seedlings until the root systems completely displace the soil, all the while growing outward rather then swirling in circles and becoming root bound.

My feeling is this...corn can be grown with out irrigation, but yields can be significantly higher when the crop has an almost constant source of water. Combined with proper nutrient levels, peak yields can be achieved...that same principle I believe can be applied here.

Constant watering combined with fertilizers like Osmokote and MiracleGro can force more rapid and aggressive growth. The RM seedlings I planted last fall (started in the spring) have far outpaced and seedlings started from seed by planting them conventionally.

Those growing a few seedlings just for fun may not be concerned with much of this, but others (like myself) are hoping for maximum growth from seedling to fist mast production...in which case aggressive watering and feeding can help us achieve that.

Share the type of soils you use in your cells and how often you typically water during hot summer months (80 degrees and up) and how often you use any added nutrients....

 

[letemgrow]

My problem has been over-watering while they are still young. Once the roots fill up the cells then constant watering is needed IMO when it gets really hot out and that is a sign its time to,"move em on up".

The soiless surely need more watering than using a soil since the aeration is much better. An easy way to test is to use 3 trays side by side...then water one daily, one every 3 days and one every 5-6 days and see what happens. Then again, you would have to put them where rainfalls would not hit either.

 

[dbltree]

My problem has been over-watering while they are still young. Once the roots fill up the cells then constant watering is needed IMO when it gets really hot out and that is a sign its time to,"move em on up".

The soiless surely need more watering than using a soil since the aeration is much better. An easy way to test is to use 3 trays side by side...then water one daily, one every 3 days and one every 5-6 days and see what happens. Then again, you would have to put them where rainfalls would not hit either.

That makes sense Phil! When the seedlings are inside and just starting I don't use much water either but when they are moved outside it's a different story.

Your thoughts on comparing "watering" are exactly what I had in mind, especially in hot summer months when rains might be few and far between...

 

[goatman]

This is my first year with growing seedlings. I use MiracleGro soiless with no extra fertilizer. In the 18 cell I'm watering everyday since it got hot. In the round gallon RM pots I'm watering once a week. Oaks and 2 catalpa are still putting on growth. It does make a difference when the roots fill the 18 cells. Thats when I'm transferring to gallon pots. And so far I have no shock to the trees when transferring.Can't wait for acorn drop this fall.

 

[SDHunt24/7]

Its very easy to over-water in those cells. I have ran a few tests and they can go 4 days or more without watering when the temps are in the 70s. How much have you been watering them?? I believe that is a very common problems for seedling mortality.

I water mine every other day. They are in partial sun and when it gets in the 90's I put them in the garage in front of the window. They will go home with me to the farm and into the ground in two weeks. More rain back home so they should do ok in the ground right?

 

[dbltree]

I water mine every other day. They are in partial sun and when it gets in the 90's I put them in the garage in front of the window. They will go home with me to the farm and into the ground in two weeks. More rain back home so they should do ok in the ground right?

If the root systems are very well developed I have had great luck planting them out almost any time all summer long. If it doesn't rain for a month after planting you may lose some but if you get periodic rains they do fine.

Make sure you cover the roots/soil medium well with top soil otherwise the soil medium will quickly dry out...

 

[dbltree]

July 27th, 2011

The seedlings growing in the Rootmaker cells are doing great! Sure is a fun, economical way to start your own oak and chestnut seedlings from seed...

Red oak seedlings from acorns I picked up at a friends farm...

Timburr chestnuts from seed purchased from Oikos Tree crops

White Oaks from seed sent to me by my friend letemgrow

and Dwarf Chinkapins from seed purchased from Advantage Nursery

The next step up from the Rootmaker cells is the Root Trapper bags or at least one of the possibles offered...and I have Concordia oaks and Kazak apples in those

Despite blast furnace heat and no rain for a month now, I only water the trees in the bags once a week

I have had zero mortality and using MiracleGro and slow release Osmokote fertilizers these things grow like weeds and develop some amazing root systems unlike any normal bare root seedling purchased from a nursery... :way:

 

[huntdoc]

My seedlings continue to turn brown, drop leaves, then sprout new healthy looking leaves. Only one has dropped and then died. Been keeping them watered regularly so I think I'm going to increase the frequency of fertilizing. If the weather weren't so dry and hot I would just get them in the ground.

 

[dbltree]

I noticed that Big Rock Trees is carrying the mesh Root Trapper bags also now

Big RockTrees

This nursery has some great pictures of different Root Maker products in use including the mesh bags

Nettle Creek Nursery

and the Root Maker site itself

Root Maker

I have found the difference in growth between the ones grown in RM products to those planted as an acorn or seedling are quite amazing! Worth taking a look at it if you enjoy starting your own trees from seed... :way:

 

[dbltree]

August 5th, 2011

I transferred some Timburr chestnuts that I started from seed this spring in Rootmaker cells to Root Trapper bags the other day. This gives you an idea of growth and root development...

The chestnut seedlings grow like crazy in the RM cells

One nice thing about the RT bags is they don't need constant daily watering

I'll plant these out this fall and use tubes to protect them....

 

[letemgrow]

Anyone looking for a timber quality red oak that will grow in a creek/river bottom should seriously consider a shumard oak. This tree has some amazing growth from what I can tell...even with the month dry spell it just kept growing.

I am in zone 5A like the bottom half of IA and they made it through this past's bitter winter in great shape!! The growth in the rigid mesh tube portion is all new for this year. These were XL one year old seedlings from the MDC nursery for 12 bucks per 25 seedlings. XL seedlings are those with the best growth for that particular year out of the whole bunch and are usually 30+ inches. Some are over 4 feet tall in one growing season!!

 

[DH1]

Some questions for thing’s that I’m not able to piece together:
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I’m looking at planting some Oak hybrid seedlings this fall, compliments of our friends at Idaho State Nursery and Oikos. They are getting planted in zone 4, I have several sites coving these four conditions from high and dry sandy rocky and sandy loam to sandy loam low well drained and sandy loam low poorly drained. Even the sandy rocky is growing alfalfa and in the lower areas, clover so it’s decent soil, just somewhat lower in fertility is the knock on it. Over the next few years I’ll be looking into something best suited for each location. Although I’m picking up a few Burgambles from ISU for this fall;
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- I’m also looking for a hybrid with a reputation for dropping acorns later in the season, ideally over late October and early November, any recommendations (zone 4)?
- I was planning to plant about 80% of the trees ordered for this fall and the remaining 20%, put in the 5” roottrapper bags over winter and into spring and then plant next year once they out-grow them. I was looking at it as experimental and considering the benefits of the additional root branching versus putting the plugs or pots straight into the ground. But, I have been reviewing some of the post from last year and I am doubting if this is still a good plan. Is this insane?
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I’ll be out in the woods the next few days, camping, but I’m trying to sort it out by next week, so I can put an order in before too long without worrying about running out of stock.

 

[dbltree]

If you plant anything in root trappers to over winter, "plant" the bags int the dirt for the winter, above ground they seem to free to hard and the trees may winter kill. Otherwise I think it's a great plan!

I plant some of everything just for fun so not sure on the late acorns? Send Ken Asmus an email at Oikos and get his thought son that subject?

The swamp white oak hybrids are very winter hardy and bear 8-10 years...that much I know...:way:

 

[SDHunt24/7]

When are acorns available

I was wondering when the sources from the first page of this thread normally have this years crop of acorns for sale. I am interested in some DCO and some burgambel for sure. Anything else I should try in north central Nebraska? Several red and white oaks currently on my property and have planted swamp, white, and more red oak. Thanks guys.

 

[dbltree]

I was wondering when the sources from the first page of this thread normally have this years crop of acorns for sale. I am interested in some DCO and some burgambel for sure. Anything else I should try in north central Nebraska? Several red and white oaks currently on my property and have planted swamp, white, and more red oak. Thanks guys.

Oikos will offer acorns and chestnuts later this fall but may not always offer DCO seed...I'll keep you posted if I run across sources for seed later this fall.

 

[SDHunt24/7]

Oikos will offer acorns and chestnuts later this fall but may not always offer DCO seed...I'll keep you posted if I run across sources for seed later this fall.

That would be great! I have really enjoyed Growing my own trees. Thanks Dbltree.