letemgrow
PMA Member
It sounds like a very interesting hybrid, you may just talk me into a few of them with some pics. :way:
It sounds like a very interesting hybrid, you may just talk me into a few of them with some pics. :way:
Hardwood11
It is going to be a good fall!
bur gambel hybrid
Ah yes, I forgot about the bur/gambel hybrid. I planted several from the Idaho Nursery here in MN. They are nice plugs, easy to plant. I will have to try some in Iowa. (Last time I checked is they were low on numbers of bur x gambel oak, so they may not have any for next spring.)
Any other nurseries that sell this hybrid (besides Oikos and Morse)?
Ah yes, I forgot about the bur/gambel hybrid. I planted several from the Idaho Nursery here in MN. They are nice plugs, easy to plant. I will have to try some in Iowa. (Last time I checked is they were low on numbers of bur x gambel oak, so they may not have any for next spring.)
Any other nurseries that sell this hybrid (besides Oikos and Morse)?
dbltree
Super Moderator
Here's a few more sources with varying seedling size, minimum quantity and prices...:way:
Lawyer Nursery
McKeone Nursery
UI Nursery
OHIOshedder
New Member
I'm looking for some help with oak tree identification:
1) Subject #1 has long, relatively oval shaped leaves with jagged edges similar to chinkapin, but each jagged point on the leaf has a barb like a thorn. The acorn caps are hairy like a bur oak, but the cap is much smaller and only covers the very top of the acorn unlike a bur oak. I'm torn between swamp white and chinkapin, but I don"t think either have hairy caps.
2) Subject #2 has typical red oak leaves that are pointy (not rounded lobes like a white oak). I'm pretty sure its a pin oak, but the acorns are medium size (at least 2-3x bigger than the typical tiny pin oak acorn). The acorns are orangish colored with black vertical stripes. The acorn size is probably between 1/2-3/4" diameter. I'm used to seeing pin oaks a hair over 1/4" diameter, but don't know of any other acorn that would be orangish with black stripes.
Any help?
1) Subject #1 has long, relatively oval shaped leaves with jagged edges similar to chinkapin, but each jagged point on the leaf has a barb like a thorn. The acorn caps are hairy like a bur oak, but the cap is much smaller and only covers the very top of the acorn unlike a bur oak. I'm torn between swamp white and chinkapin, but I don"t think either have hairy caps.
2) Subject #2 has typical red oak leaves that are pointy (not rounded lobes like a white oak). I'm pretty sure its a pin oak, but the acorns are medium size (at least 2-3x bigger than the typical tiny pin oak acorn). The acorns are orangish colored with black vertical stripes. The acorn size is probably between 1/2-3/4" diameter. I'm used to seeing pin oaks a hair over 1/4" diameter, but don't know of any other acorn that would be orangish with black stripes.
Any help?
OHIOshedder
New Member
Just answered my own question.
Looks like #1 is a sawtooth- never seen one in person before...
I'm becoming more convinced #2 is a pin oak with giant acorns unless anyone else has an idea
Looks like #1 is a sawtooth- never seen one in person before...
I'm becoming more convinced #2 is a pin oak with giant acorns unless anyone else has an idea
dbltree
Super Moderator
Easier to tell by the leaves and bark and I have pictures in both the Tree Planting and TSI threads to help you better ID most oaks.
Shingle oaks are very much like sawtooths but by the acorn description I suspect sawtooths.
letemgrow
PMA Member
I believe you have Cherrybark oaks in certain parts of Ohio, they have the striped acorns too so that may be an option for ya to check out. If the leaves for sure look like a pin oak, some black oaks have that same leaf structure too.
dbltree
Super Moderator
Finally! My sawtooths are starting to drop some acorns...after 15 years! :way:
I happened to notice the "feathery" acorn cap still hanging in the trees
While the sawtooths can bear at 7-10 years, they took much longer then that here in Iowa compared to the white swamp oak hybrids that produced in less then 10 years.
The sawtooths grew faster then the hybrids and seemed to withstand the yearly onslaught by "killer" bucks better as well. Hormone charged bucks seem to find the scaly bark of the white swamp oak and bur-x-gambel oaks more attractive which of course didn't help growth any but here's a shot of the still green sawtooths towering over the other oaks
I suspect that the low tannin sweet acorns the white oak hybrids drop will be far more attractive then those of the sawtooths but...time will tell....
I happened to notice the "feathery" acorn cap still hanging in the trees
While the sawtooths can bear at 7-10 years, they took much longer then that here in Iowa compared to the white swamp oak hybrids that produced in less then 10 years.
The sawtooths grew faster then the hybrids and seemed to withstand the yearly onslaught by "killer" bucks better as well. Hormone charged bucks seem to find the scaly bark of the white swamp oak and bur-x-gambel oaks more attractive which of course didn't help growth any but here's a shot of the still green sawtooths towering over the other oaks
I suspect that the low tannin sweet acorns the white oak hybrids drop will be far more attractive then those of the sawtooths but...time will tell....
Hardwood11
It is going to be a good fall!
Oaks
Dbltree: The sawtooths finally produced. I guess it is patience and then some!
I talked to a MN DNR forester yesterday and he gave me some typical time frames on when oaks first produce acorns in MN...or course that could very in Iowa or other states. Here is what he told me...
Northern Pin Oak- 10-15 years
Bur Oak 10-18 years
Red Oak 10-15 years
Swamp White Oak- most often right around 10 years
He really didn't have much background on hybrids. He did say that every so often he'll see exceptional trees that will produce young, and then he will see trees that have not been managed that are 20 years or older and they still do not produce acorns...it was interesting.
Dbltree: The sawtooths finally produced. I guess it is patience and then some!
I talked to a MN DNR forester yesterday and he gave me some typical time frames on when oaks first produce acorns in MN...or course that could very in Iowa or other states. Here is what he told me...
Northern Pin Oak- 10-15 years
Bur Oak 10-18 years
Red Oak 10-15 years
Swamp White Oak- most often right around 10 years
He really didn't have much background on hybrids. He did say that every so often he'll see exceptional trees that will produce young, and then he will see trees that have not been managed that are 20 years or older and they still do not produce acorns...it was interesting.
http://www.coldstreamfarm.net/t-faq.aspx
I only planted my sawtooth oaks 2 seasons ago, was hoping to see acorns sooner but looks like it will be later...
oaks or apples?
2 years ago was the first time I tried planting oak and hazelnut seedlings using tree tubes (5 foot vented orange ones from Plantra). 1st year lost a few, but over all had pretty good success, I didn't keep records, but I'd say around 80% sucess compared to in the past 0% without the tubes. Anything that made it through the summer drought the deer chowed down before the next spring (not the most cost effective way to feed the deer). But this summer it seemed like almost half of what I had just died out. Not sure if they fried out early in the year (April was dry by us, May made up for it) or if the time released fertilizer packet put in by each seedling burned-out the roots.
I was thinking of trying some of these hybrid oaks next year that you've been mentioning, but now I'm thinking maybe I should just put in a dozen apple trees, maybe dwarfs, cage them and use smaller tubes (3-4 foot). I'd think I'd see apples in less than 5 years and it seems like many of these oaks end up not prodcing until 7-10 years out, I don't mind planning for the future, but I'm down to 40% of what I started with.
- Is the feed value that much difference between oaks and apples?
- Generally I can only take on limited projects due to the distance from where I live to the planting site, would oaks or apples normally have a higher chance for suceess over the other?
- What reasons would you prefer one over the other?
2 years ago was the first time I tried planting oak and hazelnut seedlings using tree tubes (5 foot vented orange ones from Plantra). 1st year lost a few, but over all had pretty good success, I didn't keep records, but I'd say around 80% sucess compared to in the past 0% without the tubes. Anything that made it through the summer drought the deer chowed down before the next spring (not the most cost effective way to feed the deer). But this summer it seemed like almost half of what I had just died out. Not sure if they fried out early in the year (April was dry by us, May made up for it) or if the time released fertilizer packet put in by each seedling burned-out the roots.
I was thinking of trying some of these hybrid oaks next year that you've been mentioning, but now I'm thinking maybe I should just put in a dozen apple trees, maybe dwarfs, cage them and use smaller tubes (3-4 foot). I'd think I'd see apples in less than 5 years and it seems like many of these oaks end up not prodcing until 7-10 years out, I don't mind planning for the future, but I'm down to 40% of what I started with.
- Is the feed value that much difference between oaks and apples?
- Generally I can only take on limited projects due to the distance from where I live to the planting site, would oaks or apples normally have a higher chance for suceess over the other?
- What reasons would you prefer one over the other?
letemgrow
PMA Member
Were the trees planted on their ideal site DH1? Sometimes mother nature tells us when things are not planted correctly. Also, are they proven winter hardy for your area? There could be lots of issues really on why some died out, but if 40 out of 100 make it, you have the seeds started for the next generation.
I would for sure plant some apples, but 4 foot tall tubes will not be enough if you have any deer I doubt. They browse apples very very hard.
I would for sure plant some apples, but 4 foot tall tubes will not be enough if you have any deer I doubt. They browse apples very very hard.
Oaks or Apples:
- Sawtooth Oak came from Cold Stream Farms, others from County Soil Conservation District
- Going through those tubes (I used mats too) in the late spring sure was an adventure; found a dead bird in one, a mouse attacked me (sort of, when it jumped out of one), some loaded down with ants and a few with hornets nesting in them...can't be sleeping on that job.
- thanks for the guidance on the oaks and apples, I have to admit after looking at dbltree's recent post on the Tree Planting thread, I'm back to thinking about putting in some of both. Nice CRP information and very nice wind breaks/road screens.
- Sawtooth Oak came from Cold Stream Farms, others from County Soil Conservation District
- Going through those tubes (I used mats too) in the late spring sure was an adventure; found a dead bird in one, a mouse attacked me (sort of, when it jumped out of one), some loaded down with ants and a few with hornets nesting in them...can't be sleeping on that job.
- thanks for the guidance on the oaks and apples, I have to admit after looking at dbltree's recent post on the Tree Planting thread, I'm back to thinking about putting in some of both. Nice CRP information and very nice wind breaks/road screens.
dbltree
Super Moderator
Now your talkin'! :way:
Remember...our goal is to hold whitetails on our property year around, to adapt them to living on our place and not leaving and hoping they will return.
The best way to do that is to have diversified cover and food sources and having apple trees drop apples from July until December and oaks from Sept thru late October is a perfect way to help accomplish our goals.
That means you not only need apples and oaks but you need a wide array of varieties of each so don't plant only one variety of apple or oak...plant a few of many different varieties and species.
Often our budgets don't allow everything at once but we can plant a few apple trees and a few oaks each year and before you know it you have an awesome habitat program going on....:way:
dark_viper42
New Member
Is there a rule of thump you guys use for how long to keep tree tubes on your trees as they grow?
letemgrow
PMA Member
I keep them in tree tubes through the year they emerge out of the top, then they get poultry fencing or some woven wire I have laying around to keep the deer from browsing them. Basically they are in the tubes for about 2 years for me.
So bags of acorns labeled in the frig, moistened them a little more couple weeks ago. DO I forget about them for 3-4 months now or what kind of upkeep should I do for them? If I am disturbing them when I get them out to check will it mess anything up? Planning to order some rootmaker pots etc once hunting season slows down.
letemgrow
PMA Member
Just check them once a week to make sure they are not molding. Did you use peat moss? It blocks mold from forming and is why I use it.