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BOW GUYS HELP- 80 lbs bows & busting thru shoulders???...

Crazy timing of this post. I just got back from my hunt in Illinois and had an issue while there. I'm shooting 80lbs 29 inch draw. Axis 300's and rocket sidewinders. I'm shooting 296fps creating around 90lbs of KE I believe. Prior I was shooing 70 lbs and FMJ's shooting 272 fps creating about 84 KE with muzzys. My previous setup I aimed for the shoulder every time. I hit nearly every doe and 3 mature(4.5+) deer in the shoulders and passed through every one. Except one spine shot buck. The follow up arrow did burn through his off shoulder though. I have also blown through the "socket" on my 2010 buck who dressed at 208 lbs on his opposite shoulder.

My new set up had broken both shoulders and passed through on does field dressing from 110 to 131 lbs until last week.

Last week I had a decent doe(probably dress 120-130 blow at me three times in the stand. That was enough for me and I decided she had to go. She was quartering to me at 35 yards. I put my pin on the point of her shoulder expecting to hit the opposite shoulder and break both of them. To my complete surprise my arrow did not pass through and appeared to get bad penetration. She ran approximately 100 yards(watched my lighted knock) before appearing to summersault down. It was last light and the outfitter required me to come back to camp before finding blood. Upon return we found no blood and I obviously only had an entry wound through a shoulder that wasn't going to bleed much. We searched quite a while for blood and to no avail. I was very confident I watched her flip, but because she ran into a bedding area(crp) and I didn't have blood I was not allowed to search for my deer or arrow at any point. That's a whole other issue for a separate discussion. The point being that I'm shooting a pretty wicked setup and a doe stopped my arrow, which I didn't think was possible.
 
I have shot #80 for about 4 years until this fast fall. Used it for turks, moose, bison and an elk hunt through the years. I have a short draw of 26.5-27" depending on whether I shoot side plates or not. What I have found is that if you hit them square in the "blade", its a flip of a coin-50-90#.

I have friends that have shot #90 and not busted through, and others at #60 that have.
Great photo of the blade above as the shoulder, like ours, is mostly muscle, and is a great shot if can get through, but the blade, which is again "part" of the shoulder..not so much.
alot of guys think its a GIANT piece of bone but you can see how small it really is. That musculature can be tough also though.

One things that you have to also consider is longevity in archery and shooting in bitter cold etc. Makes that draw just a bit tougher and your practice sessions shorter. I promise :(

One thing is for sure, if you pass through in a bad location, your probably worse off than if you got marginal penetration on a good location. If you shoot #80, and use that stored energy wisely (push a heavy arrow at a reasonable speed 250-280), youll not only quiet the bow, but enhance your momentum which trumps KE anyday. KE sounds good but it evaporates quickly and has nothing on momentum-just ask a traditional guy :)

Whitetails overall aren't that hard to get through, but they can still stop an arrow dead in its tracks if hit poorly. I think if wanting to enhance penentration on bone was my goal, Id shoot 70-80#, you have to decide, with sharp, COC fixed heads and smaller diameter shafts. Of all those, Id pick the COC head as most important to get through a blade, then arrow weight and finally, arrow diameter.

Just my 2 cents :)
 
Something else that can affect penetration is arrow spine. A stiffer spined arrow should transfer more energy via less flexing through the shot, during and immediately after impact.
 
Not really looking at a "fad" or "newest gig or set-up here".... this is actually just more basic physics I'm asking about. More poundage, heavier arrow - that's about the nuts & bolts of it. Can a shoulder be busted through? And, yes, 50 lbs, 70 lbs, 65, whatever, I just help too many guys track deer they hit "well" (not in bone) and get 8" of penetration with carbons and good broadheads, fixed of mechanical. I think the industry belief of "50 lbs is plenty for a silly little whitetail" is just WRONG unless you hit it money, which, heck, 30 lbs can do or a .22 long rifle. But, when you've hunted 20 years with a bow and helped 30 guys track deer they hit "well" and had 8" of penetration or less without sometimes hitting big bones, it's troubling. (Don't get me wrong, I've tracked many deer over 20 years, found most I just mentioned & compared to dead in 50 yards or less, it's a tiny amount - but I've seen a lot in 20 years and a lot of disappointment with penetration) Like i said, I got 8-10" and I hit at least 8" behind shoulder with 70 lbs at 15-20 yards. That's messed up.

SO, this isn't a "NEWEST GEAR" discussion, it's talking about 75-80 lbs (which is no problem for me, I'm a ripped, monstrous muscular miracle & freak of nature ;) *Basically visualize ARNOLD in his late 20's, maybe early 30's) - it's just saying.... More poundage, heavier arrow, which will probably equal about the same speed as my lower poundage bow with a lighter arrow & trajectory be similar.

Any opinion on what is better for arrows, arrows designed for busting through bone, penetration & strength (not just a fad)... FMJ by Easton VS HT-1 (Muddy or Bloodsport) or Victory VAP's seem to be the favs from most as a gold standard but one of the 3 has to be a better arrow I would imagine or have an edge (ups & downs to anything & each product I suppose). However you slice it, we're simply talking, at a mimimum of 3 strong, well designed arrows that are built well and should shoot great behind a lot of poundage (which factually will fly better in wind, less shock, quieter, etc). But, will it go through a shoulder and I think several have answered and I read it and super appreciate it!!!! My last 2 cents again, I think whitetails don't get NEAR the credit they deserve at how hard they are to kill and pass through, they just don't. Sure, a 1.5 year old doe in the lungs to guts hitting no bone of any type, sure, arrow will be buried 2' deep in ground. A 300 lbs buck & you catch some ribs or some bones of any type, sorry, I've seen so many with 2-10" of penetration out of "good set-ups" it's unreal.
 
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I have not read the whole thread. But from my experiences. The best thing that has helped out penetration is to shoot an arrow that will take a brass insert. I shoot Easton Da Torch and 50 grains of brass out front and a 100grain slick trick. The FOC is great and it hits HARD.
 
My 60# hunting bow will probably out penetrate most 70 or even 80# bows out there for a few simple reasons. (unless they use these tips too - then they are ready for anything!)
- Perfectly tuned bow - arrow shoots like a dart with zero wobble - Wobble scrubs speed and inhibits energy transfer upon impact.
- Top quality super sharp cut on contact head - mechanicals take a lot of energy to open and don't penetrate as well, modular heads take some energy away and dull heads are a disaster waiting to happen.
- Heavy arrows - Better kinetic energy and more importantly - more momentum
- 125 grain broadheads - better FOC and better arrow flight
- Small Diameter shaft - A/C injections are as small as are made for hunting arrows and have less drag (not as big of a factor but still has some impact)
- Plus I still shoot a fast bow to maintain good arrow speed

Shot placement is still the main factor to consider but when things go wrong, I want to have the setup that still gets the job done.
 
gunrunr said:
My 60# hunting bow will probably out penetrate most 70 or even 80# bows out there for a few simple reasons.
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So to clarify- if u shot same set up but 70 lbs vs your 60 lbs- u would have more penetration with 70 right?
I see no reason, for me, to shoot less poundage. More vs less. 70 pulls like nothing. So, as long as I can shoot 80 with ease (which I will have no issue) - ill have proper spined arrow at proper gpi, shoot what's comfy & have more penetration. That's my logic so far.
 
Im a firm believer that a lower pound bow, we will say 60 for arguments sake. That is 100 percent tuned to the T with the correct arrow and a sharp broadhead will out penetrate a higher weight bow "80 lbs" thats out of tune, not a doubt in my mind.

My wife shoots 46 lbs and sticks arrows in the dirt on the other side of big mature bucks.
My next bow will be more than likely 80 lbs, just because in my mind, if you can shoot it completely comfortable then why not! No such thing as a deer being too dead.
I have a .223 set up for shooting coyotes but i end up grabbing the 25-06 99% of the time.... yeah a lighter bullet will work but one thats 75 grains heavier going the same speed sure does the job alot better.

In terms of a bow, ive been shooting heavy arrows for the last 8 years and never bought into the speed craze. I want to shoot a heavy small diameter arrow as fast as possible, im more than happy 265-275 fps as long as its a heavy arrow with something razor sharp on the end of it!
 
All newer bows I've ever got have been tuned perfectly so far and shoot darts. 20 years ago I did have issues and spent a lot of time paper tuning & dealing with issues on gear. I mean, I guess a bow that's 100 lbs or 25 lbs draw- if it's not tined right would not shoot as well. The new elites, for example, have synchronized cams that make tuning much easier too. I have never had an issue with having a bow tuned right in the last 8-10 years I would say. but ya, i guess I'd take Lower tuned right vs higher weight that's out of whack- wanna make sure whatever poundage bow is tuned right. What else do I need to do so I'm tuned right in addition to arrow weight, spine, etc? The weight of arrow - ill make sure I shoot a touch more than needed so I'll make sure after that all things r dialed in. I'm not a gear expert so tell me if I'm missing something. Like above post- I know I can pull 80 with "ease", even in the cold, no problem. Totally agree u can't "kill em too dead". Exactly. For me, ya, if it was a struggle to pull 65, Id do 55 lbs but again, when u r rippling with muscles, a physical masterpiece & shooting a 200 lbs bow all night is a breeze- do it while u can ;).
 
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Sligh1 said:
So to clarify- if u shot same set up but 70 lbs vs your 60 lbs- u would have more penetration with 70 right?
I see no reason, for me, to shoot less poundage. More vs less. 70 pulls like nothing. So, as long as I can shoot 80 with ease (which I will have no issue) - ill have proper spined arrow at proper gpi, shoot what's comfy & have more penetration. That's my logic so far.
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Absolutely, my setup at 70 would outpenetrate the same system as 60. What I am trying to say is that are other better ways to increase penetration rather than brute force of pulling an 80#er.

I've been selling bows for over 25 years and have seen a lot of people saying exactly the same thing as you "I can pull 80# bow easy" and right now years later a lot of those same guys are shooting crossbows because they blew out their shoulders. I'll stick with my 60# bow even though I could shoot an 80# bow - I've even shot 100#ers at trade shows (helps when you shoot bow practically every day having your own indoor range). I hope to still be shooting a compound when i'm 80 - although it might be a 50#er by then. I hope your shoulder survives your years at 80# so you can too.
 
Ya- I get u. I understand the body taking a beating over the years. For now, I think the fact that u can dial an 80 lbs bow down to 75 or 73 or whatever if needed- that's kinda nice. I actually will probably keep my 70 lbs bow and if I do feel like it's a strain on my body at all- I'd address it. I hear ya. I guess, I'll keep good "tune of my body" and keep close tabs if it's hard on me at all. Good thing, for now, my 70 lbs bow can sit on shelf all yr- I pick up 1st time in summer & pull back like nothing. I know our bodies don't last forever though. ;)
 
Speed isn't everything on a bow either but it can help maintain energy better
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A 350 FPS IBO bow at 60# will shoot the same arrow at the same speed or even faster than a 330 bow set at 70#.

I get guys buying new bows all the time dropping from 70# bows down to a new 60# bow and getting more speed and energy at the lighter draw weight. In instances of slower bows you can drop 20 or 30 pounds of draw weight and still maintain your speed.
 
If you have access to a hooter shooter. Let the machine shoot the bow first and tune with no human error. I dont do a whole lot of paper tuning anymore these days, just a few shots to get it close.
Broadhead tuning/bareshaft tuning /walkback tuning have yeilded 10× better results.
Ive shot mechanicals the last few yrs but i know for certainty that i can screw any fixed blade on and hit right with my field points out to as far as id like to shoot.
One great thing you can use to double check arrow flight is a camera and a lighted knock. It will show you if your arrow is flying straight or wobbling.
Cam timing/cam lean/ knock travel all have a huge part in arrow flight.
My guess is that 90 percent of fellas shoot the bow when they buy it, spend all summer shooting field points and then screw on the most popular expandable and go hunting without ever truly tuning their bow....
 
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