BOW GUYS HELP- 80 lbs bows & busting thru shoulders???...
comenovember150+
comenovember150+
Hoyt Spyder 34, 72 pounds 30" draw. Shooting a Gold Tip XT Hunter with Slick Trick 125 mags. Total arrow weight with broadhead is 505 grains. I have absolutely no trouble penetrating through the shoulder blade on big bucks with this set up.
I shot a 72lb mathews z7 with a 560-570 (dont remeber exact weight) fmj with brass insert and weight tube tipped with a 125 grain magnus buzzcut.
I was planning for the best but wanted enough arrow to get through a shoulder if things went wrong.... i had a bad habit of holding tight to the shoulder and it finally. Happened one day.
I got less than 2 inches of penetration at 12 yrds.... only deer ive ever wounded and he healed up just fine.
Im now shooting a 450 grain arrow and aim towards the back of the lungs or wait for a quartered away shot if possible and have had avoided the shoulder completely.
I think there are certain situations where your arrow wont get through that shoulder ridge and if it does it may only end up as a single lung hit
I was planning for the best but wanted enough arrow to get through a shoulder if things went wrong.... i had a bad habit of holding tight to the shoulder and it finally. Happened one day.
I got less than 2 inches of penetration at 12 yrds.... only deer ive ever wounded and he healed up just fine.
Im now shooting a 450 grain arrow and aim towards the back of the lungs or wait for a quartered away shot if possible and have had avoided the shoulder completely.
I think there are certain situations where your arrow wont get through that shoulder ridge and if it does it may only end up as a single lung hit
buckill
Member
If you want to break through shoulders look at the heads and shafts on alaska bow hunting supply as previously suggested. They are made for breaking and penetrating through bone on dangerous african big game.
I use the silver flame 100 grain head and get great penetration. Haven't hit bone and hope I don't.
I use the silver flame 100 grain head and get great penetration. Haven't hit bone and hope I don't.
From that site u listed, here's quote- this is the EXACT thinking that has my wheels turning..... Here's my problems of the past I've seen (others who I've hunted with, been around or myself)...... Some fixed blades getting the penetration u would want but the blood trails are very poor. Fixed blades in gut area not doing near the damage of mechanical. Then, on mechanical side- not busting thru bone or good penetration in areas u should be blowing through. Or them not working right (not opening, planing off deer, etc). Now, there's more to it than heads alone (which im not making a debate on heads & what r best- very good points made by previous posts & links).... I wanna do all I can in bow & arrow department and 3rd (not of least importance at all!!) address best tip options. I don't want to "have to" choose what's a better gamble "guts or shoulder" (which statistically guts would cover more area) - ideally I'd like to find solution that would ravage both. Even though vast majority of my shots i have no issues. I want to prepare for the worst like above quote - ravage bones and guts if either happened and have not seen a near flawless solution for both yet, but getting closer. My actual bow and arrow choice should help with both problems. History kinda sucks where it "seemed" with broadheads u sorta had to choose which area u wanted "advantage on". I don't wanna choose
HorseDoctor
PMA Member
Sounds like you need a 400# crossbow. Not sure the "silver bullet" you're looking for exists, at least it's not shot out of a bow. If you aim right behind the shoulder, a shot a little forward hits bone. A little back hits liver. Only a lot back hits guts and only guts. Think you'll have to decide which hit you want the upper hand on. Good luck with your deliberation.
Not sure the "silver bullet" you're looking for exists, at least it's not shot out of a bow. If you aim right behind the shoulder, a shot a little forward hits bone. A little back hits liver. Only a lot back hits guts and only guts. Think you'll have to decide which hit you want the upper hand on. Good luck with your deliberation.
View attachment 2763. Here's the "gun version" of what goals I want with bow. And yes, I know this really doesn't exist with a bow, I get it. With this gun, Kansas rifle hunt long ago, I used a .300 Remington ultra mag with ballistic tips. Exploded deer (yes, I understand my bow has totally different results & how they kill, outcome, etc) and they got "destroyed." I can afford 2 lbs of extra beef at store from what that gun did.
Lot of guys said "overkill". I never understood u could overkill a deer?!?? I didn't want to wound one and never did. Pumelled them. The gun shot nice, kick didn't bug me, shot flat, hit hard and no situation would get in the way of a kill. Same hunt the neighbor hit a deer in shoulder with .243 & didn't find it. The analogy is just - getting the most I can handle with ease to inflict as much damage as I possibly can. I'd use a bow made for elephants if that's what i had to do. (Thankfully I dont). I want them down as quickly as possible as long as I'm shooting a weapon I can handle (yes, 90% of my bucks and hunting are bow & arrow hunting so rifle is just fun analogy) that will do as much damage as possible. If I could shoot a bow that would cut deer in 1/2- I would.. I know all this sounds extreme but u get my point.
Lot of guys said "overkill". I never understood u could overkill a deer?!?? I didn't want to wound one and never did. Pumelled them. The gun shot nice, kick didn't bug me, shot flat, hit hard and no situation would get in the way of a kill. Same hunt the neighbor hit a deer in shoulder with .243 & didn't find it. The analogy is just - getting the most I can handle with ease to inflict as much damage as I possibly can. I'd use a bow made for elephants if that's what i had to do. (Thankfully I dont). I want them down as quickly as possible as long as I'm shooting a weapon I can handle (yes, 90% of my bucks and hunting are bow & arrow hunting so rifle is just fun analogy) that will do as much damage as possible. If I could shoot a bow that would cut deer in 1/2- I would.
. I know all this sounds extreme but u get my point.
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Forestryguy
Member
Sligh, I get what you are trying to accomplish and I am sure that others do also. It is a bad habit, that I know I have and others probably do also, to over think these things and end up getting no where. I do it all the time with stand placement.
My suggestion is to go and build different arrows that you think will give you what you are looking for and others that may or may not work and try them out on plywood and a target. There is no substitute for actual trial and error. My guess is that even with an 80# bow a mechanical will punch through, but will not deploy or the blades will shear off. A fixed BH will penetrate through, even with a lower draw weight, and you will still get cutting action.
I shot Rage BH a few years back, while I was doing a damage control hunt for a farmer. This was early Sept. I shot a fawn one evening, the Rage had a great entry cut, but closed up and left a whole the size of the BH when closed. After 15 yds, I was following pin drops. That was a perfect Broadside shot. Later that season I missed a doe and hit a rotting stump. Both blades sheared off. I switched to NAPs 2 blade expandable BHs. I have had no problems with small entry or exit cuts and the blades bent, but stayed intact, when I missed a deer and skipped the arrow off a rock in the ground. I am now going back to a fixed BH and heavier arrow for durability and ability to break bone structure down if needed.
My suggestion is to go and build different arrows that you think will give you what you are looking for and others that may or may not work and try them out on plywood and a target. There is no substitute for actual trial and error. My guess is that even with an 80# bow a mechanical will punch through, but will not deploy or the blades will shear off. A fixed BH will penetrate through, even with a lower draw weight, and you will still get cutting action.
I shot Rage BH a few years back, while I was doing a damage control hunt for a farmer. This was early Sept. I shot a fawn one evening, the Rage had a great entry cut, but closed up and left a whole the size of the BH when closed. After 15 yds, I was following pin drops. That was a perfect Broadside shot. Later that season I missed a doe and hit a rotting stump. Both blades sheared off. I switched to NAPs 2 blade expandable BHs. I have had no problems with small entry or exit cuts and the blades bent, but stayed intact, when I missed a deer and skipped the arrow off a rock in the ground. I am now going back to a fixed BH and heavier arrow for durability and ability to break bone structure down if needed.
Shovelbuck
Active Member
Well,............... it seems you want to drop a deer no matter how bad the shot, maybe you need these.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-20-PACK-Large-MISSISSIPPI-PODS-Bow-Archery-HUNTING-/290366820401
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-20-PACK-Large-MISSISSIPPI-PODS-Bow-Archery-HUNTING-/290366820401
Forestryguy
Member
Just thought of this. Look at the old arrows that archers from Europe and Asia used, I'm not sure is Native American arrows were the same. They all were tapered in design with a ton of weight up front. This was to get max KE to penetrate armor (bone). A lot of these arrows were tipped with a slender hardened point, to pierce armor. Just like armor piercing bullets are now. These were designed to do more manning than actual killing.
Maybe the best answer for hunting is a two blade single bevel, long tapered BH on a heavy shaft.
Maybe the best answer for hunting is a two blade single bevel, long tapered BH on a heavy shaft.
Forestryguy
Member
Well,............... it seems you want to drop a deer no matter how bad the shot, maybe you need these.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-20-PACK-Large-MISSISSIPPI-PODS-Bow-Archery-HUNTING-/290366820401
What are those. There was no real description.
JNRBRONC
Well-Known Member
Poison pods that fit around an arrow.
HA! Those used to be big down south (going back in my memory of reading about them long ago) I think and ya, put poison in em. Pretty messed up BUT of course I've thought "how cool would it be to never lose a deer if you hit it?!!?". Sure, I'd probably cut myself and die within a season or 2 but well worth the risk! I remember arrows with the light string & spool for a stabilizer many in 80's & 90's used to track deer. Then, the tracking devices like "bow bug" or something like that?!?!?? I think my next round of research will be EXPLODING ARROWS!!! Remember Rambo III where he takes down Russian Helicopters with them??? That's what I'm trying to buy if you guys have any leads???
Ok, seriously though, I think we're all on the relatively similar page.... We all know there's no "magic solution" and I don't want to over-think it, correct. If I was stuck with my 1999 PSE bow & my old Easton aluminum arrows w/the early Muzzy 3 blades forever, I'd still kill deer til the day I died. I think some tests of my own will be done. I see so many on youtube I can't come up with a good conclusion.... SO, I'm gonna try to narrow down to about 3 options and test em.
The FOR SURES..... I'm getting Elite Synergy 80 lbs (I have another elite and like how all their models shoot) with either Full Metal Jacket or HT-1 (bloodsport) or maybe try VAP's & Easton injections too. Then, I'll try several heads you guys like and see which one does the best. That's where I'm at right now. At the end of the day, thank goodness, I've done this long enough to be PATIENT with my shot, wait for solid quartering away shots or "good shots" and I RARELY don't make a good shot. All this "planning for the worst" would have been better when I was 16 but I'll still have as good of stuff I can now "just in case". I think the one issue I was not happy about this year was just Penetration in general and seeing a few guys I know stick broadheads in shoulders. So, ya, don't wanna over think, just want a solid set up (like I said, Exploding arrows pretty much). Thx for the help guys! (Where can I get extra POISON REFILLS AT? Anyone a Veterinarian on here?!?! )
Ok, seriously though, I think we're all on the relatively similar page.... We all know there's no "magic solution" and I don't want to over-think it, correct. If I was stuck with my 1999 PSE bow & my old Easton aluminum arrows w/the early Muzzy 3 blades forever, I'd still kill deer til the day I died. I think some tests of my own will be done. I see so many on youtube I can't come up with a good conclusion.... SO, I'm gonna try to narrow down to about 3 options and test em.
The FOR SURES..... I'm getting Elite Synergy 80 lbs (I have another elite and like how all their models shoot) with either Full Metal Jacket or HT-1 (bloodsport) or maybe try VAP's & Easton injections too. Then, I'll try several heads you guys like and see which one does the best. That's where I'm at right now. At the end of the day, thank goodness, I've done this long enough to be PATIENT with my shot, wait for solid quartering away shots or "good shots" and I RARELY don't make a good shot. All this "planning for the worst" would have been better when I was 16 but I'll still have as good of stuff I can now "just in case". I think the one issue I was not happy about this year was just Penetration in general and seeing a few guys I know stick broadheads in shoulders. So, ya, don't wanna over think, just want a solid set up (like I said, Exploding arrows pretty much). Thx for the help guys! (Where can I get extra POISON REFILLS AT? Anyone a Veterinarian on here?!?!
)
shadowpeople
Active Member
As tough as many guys think they are, an 80# draw shooting lots of arrows over an extended period of time will certainly give you shoulder problems. I know too many guys who messed up their shoulders , and every one of them were tough as nails but attributed it to pulling 80# over the years. I don't think there is a magic combination out there that will guarantee a pass through on a deer. Tune your bow, shoot heavier arrows/heads, and practice a lot so you don't hit the shoulder. 80# is a lot to pull with a full load of cold weather gear on. Or you can pull 80# till your shoulder goes out, then you can hunt with a muzzleloader or crossbow or something with a disabled permit. Just my .02c
Just my .02c
Shovelbuck
Active Member
Little story..............At one time I shot 85 lbs with Muzzy 3 blades when they first came out. I hammered a doe at about 5 yds about 2 inches up from the shoulder leg joint. It hit her so hard that it knocked her down on her side and then she got up and ran through the woods with most of the arrow sticking out of her. sounded like a kid with a stick on a picket fence. Long story short..........when I finally caught up with her and put a better shot in her, it was found that the first arrow had gotten only a couple inches of penetration and had just barely broken into the rib cage, just nicking one lung. The bow was perfectly tuned so I really don't think poundage alone will be a cure all to penetration.
And yes.I do have shoulder troubles now.
It hit her so hard that it knocked her down on her side and then she got up and ran through the woods with most of the arrow sticking out of her. sounded like a kid with a stick on a picket fence. Long story short..........when I finally caught up with her and put a better shot in her, it was found that the first arrow had gotten only a couple inches of penetration and had just barely broken into the rib cage, just nicking one lung. The bow was perfectly tuned so I really don't think poundage alone will be a cure all to penetration.And yes.I do have shoulder troubles now.
HorseDoctor
PMA Member
Haven't seen or heard of the old poison pods for ages. They were/are designed to be filled with powdered succyninylcholine. This drug paralyses all the skeletal muscles and the animal suffocates within a few minutes (all while still conscious). Not a pretty way to die. Even when first introduced (50 +/- years ago), they were only legal in one or two southern states. Even if still legal there, one would have to have a contact with a compounding pharmacist to get the powder as the only commercially available forms (that I know of) are liquid injectable. Could always use the injectable in a MediDart system though. http://www.telusplanet.net/public/medidart/index.html
They even have a crossbow system so you can still use it when your shoulders go bad. Gotta be planning for the future Skip.
There; poison, cruelty and crossbows, all in pone post. That should keep things riled up for a day or two.
Merry Christmas and great hunting to all!
Even when first introduced (50 +/- years ago), they were only legal in one or two southern states. Even if still legal there, one would have to have a contact with a compounding pharmacist to get the powder as the only commercially available forms (that I know of) are liquid injectable. Could always use the injectable in a MediDart system though. http://www.telusplanet.net/public/medidart/index.html They even have a crossbow system so you can still use it when your shoulders go bad. Gotta be planning for the future Skip.
There; poison, cruelty and crossbows, all in pone post. That should keep things riled up for a day or two.
Merry Christmas and great hunting to all!
Forestryguy
Member
HA! Those used to be big down south (going back in my memory of reading about them long ago) I think and ya, put poison in em. Pretty messed up BUT of course I've thought "how cool would it be to never lose a deer if you hit it?!!?". Sure, I'd probably cut myself and die within a season or 2 but well worth the risk! I remember arrows with the light string & spool for a stabilizer many in 80's & 90's used to track deer. Then, the tracking devices like "bow bug" or something like that?!?!?? I think my next round of research will be EXPLODING ARROWS!!! Remember Rambo III where he takes down Russian Helicopters with them??? That's what I'm trying to buy if you guys have any leads???
Ok, seriously though, I think we're all on the relatively similar page.... We all know there's no "magic solution" and I don't want to over-think it, correct. If I was stuck with my 1999 PSE bow & my old Easton aluminum arrows w/the early Muzzy 3 blades forever, I'd still kill deer til the day I died. I think some tests of my own will be done. I see so many on youtube I can't come up with a good conclusion.... SO, I'm gonna try to narrow down to about 3 options and test em.
The FOR SURES..... I'm getting Elite Synergy 80 lbs (I have another elite and like how all their models shoot) with either Full Metal Jacket or HT-1 (bloodsport) or maybe try VAP's & Easton injections too. Then, I'll try several heads you guys like and see which one does the best. That's where I'm at right now. At the end of the day, thank goodness, I've done this long enough to be PATIENT with my shot, wait for solid quartering away shots or "good shots" and I RARELY don't make a good shot. All this "planning for the worst" would have been better when I was 16 but I'll still have as good of stuff I can now "just in case". I think the one issue I was not happy about this year was just Penetration in general and seeing a few guys I know stick broadheads in shoulders. So, ya, don't wanna over think, just want a solid set up (like I said, Exploding arrows pretty much). Thx for the help guys! (Where can I get extra POISON REFILLS AT? Anyone a Veterinarian on here?!?!
Hope you find a combination that you like. Let us know.
Thanks for all the help guys!!!
A few things I was thinking about that was mentioned on SHOULDER ISSUES.....
I can, now, pick up my 70 lbs bow and go shoot ANY TIME with EASE. No problem.
So, long term I have an 80 lbs bow and that could create some shoulder issues. Here's what I am hoping is a valid solution and makes sense to me, maybe I'm wrong, please chime in if you have anything to add or thoughts.....
1) Any time I want, even starting out, I can dial that bow anywhere from 70-80 lbs. So, I could really put at "73 lbs" forever if I wanted.
2) could shoot 70- 75 lbs whatever during general shooting (pretty much same as now) and crank up the month before season, that's an OPTION. If I kept bow at say, 75 lbs - I just personally don't think 5 lbs is going to "make or break" my shoulder in the long run but I will obviously watch carefully and have a good feel on things. If that point came where even 70 was an issue, I'd drop to 60 lbs or whatever.
3) Guys on here that shoot 3d all the time, shoot all year long, man, I can imagine 65 lbs + could eventually start to wear on shoulders. It's awesome they practice so much though. For me, (I might get some negative sentiment on this)... I don't shoot "a lot". I shoot late summer & just build strength and get used to shooting in general. I've spent so many years 14-25 years old shooting constantly that now it's kinda ingrained in me to shoot well. I really could shoot the bow now the day before season and be fine. I never would but I probably could (I know I know, that's not good to even mention). I'm a lot more careful with my shots, patient and accurate than I was when i was 16 too. For me, that just came from years of learning, patience and practice. So, all I'm really saying is, I'm not out shooting 40 arrows a day all year long.
4) Elite's & many other new technology has made a world of difference for pulling heavy bows back.... You only have to pull the full weight for 2.5" and it lets off poundage. Only benefit to that, you aren't really putting a ton of time/energy on your shoulder to damage it. Actually pulling 80 lbs will be no trouble strength-wise for me but at least the stress of 80 lbs (or 70-80) is only 2.5".
I like having the extra power there- this is a critical "must have" for me, as much power as I can get to inflict as much damage that I can shoot with ease. will have it tuned well & probably have it somewhere in the 70-80 lbs range, maybe 75-76 or something & adjust as needed. Maybe it won't cut the deer in half like I wanted but I also don't know of any bow companies making 200 lbs bow & arrows right now Appreciate all the feedback guys. I'll getter up and rolling and see how it goes.
A few things I was thinking about that was mentioned on SHOULDER ISSUES.....
I can, now, pick up my 70 lbs bow and go shoot ANY TIME with EASE. No problem.
So, long term I have an 80 lbs bow and that could create some shoulder issues. Here's what I am hoping is a valid solution and makes sense to me, maybe I'm wrong, please chime in if you have anything to add or thoughts.....
1) Any time I want, even starting out, I can dial that bow anywhere from 70-80 lbs. So, I could really put at "73 lbs" forever if I wanted.
2) could shoot 70- 75 lbs whatever during general shooting (pretty much same as now) and crank up the month before season, that's an OPTION. If I kept bow at say, 75 lbs - I just personally don't think 5 lbs is going to "make or break" my shoulder in the long run but I will obviously watch carefully and have a good feel on things. If that point came where even 70 was an issue, I'd drop to 60 lbs or whatever.
3) Guys on here that shoot 3d all the time, shoot all year long, man, I can imagine 65 lbs + could eventually start to wear on shoulders. It's awesome they practice so much though. For me, (I might get some negative sentiment on this)... I don't shoot "a lot". I shoot late summer & just build strength and get used to shooting in general. I've spent so many years 14-25 years old shooting constantly that now it's kinda ingrained in me to shoot well. I really could shoot the bow now the day before season and be fine. I never would but I probably could (I know I know, that's not good to even mention). I'm a lot more careful with my shots, patient and accurate than I was when i was 16 too. For me, that just came from years of learning, patience and practice. So, all I'm really saying is, I'm not out shooting 40 arrows a day all year long.
4) Elite's & many other new technology has made a world of difference for pulling heavy bows back.... You only have to pull the full weight for 2.5" and it lets off poundage. Only benefit to that, you aren't really putting a ton of time/energy on your shoulder to damage it. Actually pulling 80 lbs will be no trouble strength-wise for me but at least the stress of 80 lbs (or 70-80) is only 2.5".
I like having the extra power there- this is a critical "must have" for me, as much power as I can get to inflict as much damage that I can shoot with ease. will have it tuned well & probably have it somewhere in the 70-80 lbs range, maybe 75-76 or something & adjust as needed. Maybe it won't cut the deer in half like I wanted but I also don't know of any bow companies making 200 lbs bow & arrows right now
Appreciate all the feedback guys. I'll getter up and rolling and see how it goes.
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