I think I'm the boat where the deer don't know what to do. Hopefully, once we get a nice cold snap (come on colder weather) the deer will wake up to the new food source. At least they have plenty of clover, chicory, standing corn and beans, winter rye, oats and apples to keep them busy.
WIwhitetail
New Member
Seems like the deer have transitioned to acorns and corn fields in my area... giving the brassicas a break. Can't wait for freezing temps to heat things up
dbltree
Super Moderator
October 17th, 2011
Couple contrasting examples of food plot usage on two different feeding areas on one large farm....
One is split in half using Egyptian Wheat screens and runs along an area of great cover, timber on one side and switchgrass on the other.
Roughly 3 acres total...made up of 1/2 brassicas and 1/2 the winter rye/oats/peas/radish and clover mix
Plenty of grazing but certainly not extreme yet
The brassicas are lush and healthy although perhaps a little on the thick side
The rye mix is also doing very well and grazing is obvious
Cams reveal plenty of active use
and deer in the plots feeding on both brassicas an rye on a daily basis but at this point it appears there will be plenty of feed to attract and hold deer on into winter.
In stark contrast however...a same size feeding area (on the same farm) surrounded by a very large area of timber is being decimated!
It to is screened by EW
neighboring soybean fields are literally wiped out...eaten to the dirt!
The brassicas here are being ravaged!
Every plant heavily grazed
Root development was good
but they are eating both turnip....
and radish roots already!
The rye here was slow to germinate due to the drought and low organic matter in this field and now they are grazing it off as fast as it comes up!
The cam here is located on a funnel only yards from the entrance to the field and was filled with over 5000+ pics in less then a week! :shock:
Each landowner will encounter different situations, possibly even on the same farm depending on the availability of other crops or food sources, deer density, bedding cover etc. While keeping deer numbers in check is important, it's not always possible where neighboring landowners may not hunt nor allow hunting and this is another reason to utilize a good hardy white clover such as Alice, Durana, Kopu II and others to take some of the runt of the grazing. In these cases we are in the process of that right now having planted both white and red clovers with the rye planting.
Good white clovers will take a beating and still keep producing (warning...many clovers such as those used by many big name companies can NOT withstand heavy grazing and will be eaten to the dirt) and deer will dig through the snow for it even thru the winter.
A common mistake I see is landowners planting the whole field or farm to brassicas...then they have no means of rotating crops, no back up by means of another crop such as clover, no all winter food source such as rye and are disappointed when the brassicas get wiped out before the rut.
Establish multiple crops in every plot and make sure white clover is at least a portion of your habitat plan...not in a separate field but within the same plot. Screen your plots, plant crops that are easy to rotate in strips or blocks as you see in the pictures above and doing so will help attract and hold whitetails year around, adapting them to feeding there rather then the neighbors. It will also help improve your soils and done correctly withstand heavy grazing associated with high deer densities.....
Couple contrasting examples of food plot usage on two different feeding areas on one large farm....
One is split in half using Egyptian Wheat screens and runs along an area of great cover, timber on one side and switchgrass on the other.
Roughly 3 acres total...made up of 1/2 brassicas and 1/2 the winter rye/oats/peas/radish and clover mix
Plenty of grazing but certainly not extreme yet
The brassicas are lush and healthy although perhaps a little on the thick side
The rye mix is also doing very well and grazing is obvious
Cams reveal plenty of active use
and deer in the plots feeding on both brassicas an rye on a daily basis but at this point it appears there will be plenty of feed to attract and hold deer on into winter.
In stark contrast however...a same size feeding area (on the same farm) surrounded by a very large area of timber is being decimated!
It to is screened by EW
neighboring soybean fields are literally wiped out...eaten to the dirt!
The brassicas here are being ravaged!
Every plant heavily grazed
Root development was good
but they are eating both turnip....
and radish roots already!
The rye here was slow to germinate due to the drought and low organic matter in this field and now they are grazing it off as fast as it comes up!
The cam here is located on a funnel only yards from the entrance to the field and was filled with over 5000+ pics in less then a week! :shock:
Each landowner will encounter different situations, possibly even on the same farm depending on the availability of other crops or food sources, deer density, bedding cover etc. While keeping deer numbers in check is important, it's not always possible where neighboring landowners may not hunt nor allow hunting and this is another reason to utilize a good hardy white clover such as Alice, Durana, Kopu II and others to take some of the runt of the grazing. In these cases we are in the process of that right now having planted both white and red clovers with the rye planting.
Good white clovers will take a beating and still keep producing (warning...many clovers such as those used by many big name companies can NOT withstand heavy grazing and will be eaten to the dirt) and deer will dig through the snow for it even thru the winter.
A common mistake I see is landowners planting the whole field or farm to brassicas...then they have no means of rotating crops, no back up by means of another crop such as clover, no all winter food source such as rye and are disappointed when the brassicas get wiped out before the rut.
Establish multiple crops in every plot and make sure white clover is at least a portion of your habitat plan...not in a separate field but within the same plot. Screen your plots, plant crops that are easy to rotate in strips or blocks as you see in the pictures above and doing so will help attract and hold whitetails year around, adapting them to feeding there rather then the neighbors. It will also help improve your soils and done correctly withstand heavy grazing associated with high deer densities.....
I have a foxtail problem in my brassicas, wasn't there over Labor day, now plots are full of it. I don't think that its worth worrying about now, but is clethodim the solution if the same thing happens next year to my GFR/DER/PT mix? Looks like it is okay to use on "rape greens and turnip greens". I amazes me how much foxtail grew in that amount of time with less than .5" of rain, while the brassicas suffered and didn't grow.
Central Iowa
Life Member
Yes Boz it works well. 8 oz. clethodim and 1 quart crop oil to the acre.
Central Iowa
Life Member
dbltree
Super Moderator
Same here Travis...thanks for the update from your place...:way:
October 23rd, 2011
The Purple Top turnips have gotten huge!
Incredible amount of great late fall and winter feed!
The Groundhog forage radish roots have also done well
Despite being heavily grazed and very little rain!!
and on every farm...the Purple Top turnip, Dwarf Essex rape and Groundhog forage radish mix is being heavily grazed.
Despite standing soybeans, freshly combined corn and lush alfalfa fields...this simple and economical brassica mix is a huge attraction!
Even my little garden sized test plots where deer originally refused to eat them...have become very popular!
No expensive "buck on a bag" seed is required and this mix is readily available from local co-op's of places like Welter Seed
That doesn't mean you should plant the farm to brassicas either...because they must be rotated
So incorporate a mix of crops in one central feeding area that includes strips of white clover, strips of brassicas, strips of rye and peas and where possible strips of soybeans and rotate them yearly.
Brassicas are a great draw and easy to grow but like soybeans can also be wiped out...all the more reason to have winter rye as part of your program. My 2011 Archery Buck was returning from a night of foraging in my field of winter rye/oats/peas/radish and clover...so no one crop is ever the answer to success...
Congrats on the great buck Paul! I am looking forward to watching the deer on my 160 grow as I implement some of your practices. I was able to harvest a 4.5 yr old 8 point on some other property I hunt. I have watched him over the last two years and finally was able to connect.
dbltree
Super Moderator
Kale
Kale is a long season brassica, typically planted in the spring and requiring 120 day growing period for maximum growth but even planted in July it can produce some great forage! I planted some in the garden in some test plots and it has done pretty well...
It looks much like rape or canola only with a much larger stem and overall plant height
Apparently deer don't like it as well as forage radish how ever because they have demolished the forage radish only 2 feet away!!
Most Daikon forage radish seed is grown in New Zealand and shipped to the U.S. as VNS (variety not stated) seed and then sold under trademarked names that include Groundhog, Tillage and Trophy to name a few but as a consumer you should be aware that it is all the same and the only different is the name...and the price! Forage radish seed should run $2.50-3.25 a pound so purchase it wherever you can buy it at a reasonable price regardless of what "name" is on the bag.
In this case I planted all three knowing it is all the same and as you can see...deer ate it all with no preference for one then another...
Forage Radish seed source
Kale is a long season brassica, typically planted in the spring and requiring 120 day growing period for maximum growth but even planted in July it can produce some great forage! I planted some in the garden in some test plots and it has done pretty well...
It looks much like rape or canola only with a much larger stem and overall plant height
Apparently deer don't like it as well as forage radish how ever because they have demolished the forage radish only 2 feet away!!
Most Daikon forage radish seed is grown in New Zealand and shipped to the U.S. as VNS (variety not stated) seed and then sold under trademarked names that include Groundhog, Tillage and Trophy to name a few but as a consumer you should be aware that it is all the same and the only different is the name...and the price! Forage radish seed should run $2.50-3.25 a pound so purchase it wherever you can buy it at a reasonable price regardless of what "name" is on the bag.
In this case I planted all three knowing it is all the same and as you can see...deer ate it all with no preference for one then another...
Forage Radish seed source
dbltree
Super Moderator
Mike's farmer friend has apparently been watching Mike grow brassicas for a few years now and decided he might like to try some. So he applied liquid manure to 2 1/2 acres of alfalfa hay ground and planted the following mix...
and here is the results despite having a very dry summer in their area of WI
The farmer commented that maybe he ought to grow some for the cows next year because of the amazing tonnage produced.... :way:
and here is the results despite having a very dry summer in their area of WI
The farmer commented that maybe he ought to grow some for the cows next year because of the amazing tonnage produced.... :way:
dbltree
Super Moderator
November 3rd, 2011
There are pics of brassicas that were planted in July but didn't germinate until late August when I disced them under to re-plant the rye mix. While it seems like they did fairly well...(and they did all things considering)...this is not the way to plant them! Plant brassicas in July to get optimum yields of both forage and roots...note here that while we gained some brassica forage...it has nearly suffocated the rye, oats, peas and made it impossible to establish clover!
Root growth is small at best
certainly not comparable too
the mammoth turnips planted in July!
A smattering of GHFR planted with rye works well but plant the other brassicas alone in July and the cereals, peas and clovers in the fall for best results. This also allows us to rotate crops to keep pests and disease at bay and avoid having problems by continually planting the same crops back to back....
There are pics of brassicas that were planted in July but didn't germinate until late August when I disced them under to re-plant the rye mix. While it seems like they did fairly well...(and they did all things considering)...this is not the way to plant them! Plant brassicas in July to get optimum yields of both forage and roots...note here that while we gained some brassica forage...it has nearly suffocated the rye, oats, peas and made it impossible to establish clover!
Root growth is small at best
certainly not comparable too
the mammoth turnips planted in July!
A smattering of GHFR planted with rye works well but plant the other brassicas alone in July and the cereals, peas and clovers in the fall for best results. This also allows us to rotate crops to keep pests and disease at bay and avoid having problems by continually planting the same crops back to back....
dbltree
Super Moderator
November 9th, 2011
It is amazing how long and how much the turnip and radish roots will continue to grow in the fall, despite have killing freezes down to 25 degrees several times thus far.
The old reliable Purple Top turnips are huge!
The roots provide a tremendous amount of late fall and winter feed to help hold whitetails on your property and the tops of course are readily eaten all fall.
I'm not sure if they will top Andy's 5.65# PTT !
The Groundhog Radish have "protected" the PTT's so to speak because deer have focused on the GHFR tops since August....note they have eaten the foliage right to the root...yet the root has continued to grow!
The forage radish roots of plants planted in July will help loosen compacted soils since they have a long time to grow and send roots down several feet.
Adding GHFR to your brassica plantings is a win win because deer love the tops and will eat the roots to the dirt as the weather turns colder and along with that, they break up hard pans soils, scavenge nitrogen and pull up potassium
From this link: Cover Crop USA
picture was taken in Avis, PA with Mark Lingle holding a 21" GroundHog Radish. Field was seeded after a field bean crop. Radishes were sown at 5#/acre along with Hairy Vetch.
picture was taken in the spring and is the hole left by where a GroundHog Radish had been. GHFR decompose quickly in late winter and water flows into the channels, freezing and thawing pulverizes hard pan soils.
Tom shared this 15" GHFR grown in WI...note the tap roots grow far beyond the main root and that allows them to mine sub soil nutrients that will then be available for the next crop.
Brassicas (turnips, rape, forage radish, kale and swedes) are an important tool in our habitat program but remember not to make them the ONLY tool....they can NOT provide year around food sources and they MUST be rotated with other crops. So include them as a part of your food sources within one centrally located feeding area (for every 80-120 acres) and plant them in strips or blocks that can be rotated with other crops.
Here we have strips of brassicas, soybeans (overseeded with winter rye and red clover) and white clover and the combination of ALL of those crops will keep deer coming to that single source feeding area every single day of the year. That allows us to adapt deer to coming there and draw large mature whitetails from surrounding farms who do NOT provide feed year around...
The most productive brassicas are not those found in hunting magazines but rather from local co-ops and sources such as this:
Brassica seed source
If you have some brassica roots to show off , please post them in this thread or send me a pic and I will post for you...
dbltree2000@yahoo.com
It is amazing how long and how much the turnip and radish roots will continue to grow in the fall, despite have killing freezes down to 25 degrees several times thus far.
The old reliable Purple Top turnips are huge!
The roots provide a tremendous amount of late fall and winter feed to help hold whitetails on your property and the tops of course are readily eaten all fall.
I'm not sure if they will top Andy's 5.65# PTT !
The Groundhog Radish have "protected" the PTT's so to speak because deer have focused on the GHFR tops since August....note they have eaten the foliage right to the root...yet the root has continued to grow!
The forage radish roots of plants planted in July will help loosen compacted soils since they have a long time to grow and send roots down several feet.
Adding GHFR to your brassica plantings is a win win because deer love the tops and will eat the roots to the dirt as the weather turns colder and along with that, they break up hard pans soils, scavenge nitrogen and pull up potassium
From this link: Cover Crop USA
picture was taken in Avis, PA with Mark Lingle holding a 21" GroundHog Radish. Field was seeded after a field bean crop. Radishes were sown at 5#/acre along with Hairy Vetch.
picture was taken in the spring and is the hole left by where a GroundHog Radish had been. GHFR decompose quickly in late winter and water flows into the channels, freezing and thawing pulverizes hard pan soils.
Tom shared this 15" GHFR grown in WI...note the tap roots grow far beyond the main root and that allows them to mine sub soil nutrients that will then be available for the next crop.
Brassicas (turnips, rape, forage radish, kale and swedes) are an important tool in our habitat program but remember not to make them the ONLY tool....they can NOT provide year around food sources and they MUST be rotated with other crops. So include them as a part of your food sources within one centrally located feeding area (for every 80-120 acres) and plant them in strips or blocks that can be rotated with other crops.
Here we have strips of brassicas, soybeans (overseeded with winter rye and red clover) and white clover and the combination of ALL of those crops will keep deer coming to that single source feeding area every single day of the year. That allows us to adapt deer to coming there and draw large mature whitetails from surrounding farms who do NOT provide feed year around...
The most productive brassicas are not those found in hunting magazines but rather from local co-ops and sources such as this:
Brassica seed source
If you have some brassica roots to show off , please post them in this thread or send me a pic and I will post for you...
dbltree2000@yahoo.com
letemgrow
PMA Member
If you have some brassica roots to show off , please post them in this thread or send me a pic and I will post for you...
Wish I had some to show off, but the deer have ate the ground hog forage radishes to the dirt!!! Maybe that is a better photo anyways tho huh?? :way:
dbltree
Super Moderator
I believe it is Phil! :way:
November 14th, 2011
I've lost count of the number of "hard freezes" we have had where temps dropped down into the mid to upper 20's and freeze water solid by morning...
Yet the brassicas appear unscathed including this mix of kale, turnips and forage radish
it takes an awful lot of severe cold weather to phase most brassicas which makes them great late fall and early winter food sources
When the foliage is gone the turnips and radish roots are left behind and Mike sent some pics of his Groundhog forage radish roots that did outstanding!
A tremendous amount of deer feed in roots like this
Along with soil pulverizing and nutrient mining from the radish plants, not to mention some of the most highly attractive forage you can plant for deer to boot!
Deer will eat the roots to the ground and what's left below the soil will decompose leaving scavenged nitrogen behind along with loose fluffy soils from water flowing into the channels and freezing and thawing all winter. If that were not enough, the radish plants have strong allelopathic chemicals that inhibit small seeded weeds from germinating the following spring...great food crop and cover crop in one! :way:
dbltree
Super Moderator
Pretty rare to hear anyone say that deer didn't devour their GHFR...:way:
November 22nd, 2011
Working on TSI projects now and I end up driving home just before dark...slowly and cautiously I might add! Doe groups are starting to return to more regular feeding patterns and plenty of cruising bucks dash across the fields and roads in search of.
Each field has the same deer in it every night, alfalfa, corn and bean stubble often literally right beside each other, yet all the deer do not gather in any one field. The number of deer in the fields correlates with the amount/size of adjacent cover...more/larger cover...more deer, the type of food source being irrelevant and therein lies the point I try to get through to landowners managing their properties for whitetails. Deer are opportunistic feeders and as long as they have a food source adjacent to their home bedding area they will seldom leave that feeding area, unless of course that food source disappears.
One of the fields happens to be a large combined corn field that has been sub soiled already, it is large, flat as a pancake with no cover long the road. As many as 30 deer are in that field before dark and no telling how many after dark and these deer are leaving a farm that has standing corn and soybeans along with many food plots scattered through out. It's not that they like picking thru the half buried corn stubble, it's just that it is closer and easy pickin's.
That field is right beside a large field that is soybean stubble and that area is also covered with deer who would rather not walk 400 yards to the corn field and across the road is an alfalfa field with it's own group of deer. If any one of these crops were preferred over another...ALL of the deer would be in that field...but such is not the case. Many landowners are under the false impression that some food source or brand of seed will somehow perform magic and attract deer from miles around but in truth there is no such thing.
Within a field adjacent to great cover, deer may choose one over another at different times...Groundhog forage radish comes to mind but while this is "deer candy"....deer won't travel a mile to get it if they have any options at all next to their bedding area.
The point here is that it is COVER that is the most important factor...NOT any particular food source!!
My friend Rich Baugh sent me pics from one of his food plots where he was hunting...(moments before he shot a giant 194" buck that has lived on his farm his entire life I might add) The food plot is split between brassicas and the rye mix and he noted via several texts to me that deer moved from one to the other with no real preference over the two. Did I mention that Rich also has standing soybeans on his farm??
Note here the outstanding cover...timber and NWSG surrounding this hidden secluded feeding area....the pics are from his phone but there is a 150" buck along with the does...first in the rye
then to the brassicas
Next year the third element...white clover...will be established in this (and other plots) to help provide feed year around and thereby adapt deer to always finding what they need in that one spot!
On another farm we find the same thing...deer feeding in brassicas
and then in soybeans
The landowner observed these deer the other night from a blind and watched them move from brassicas to beans to white clover where they spent a great deal of time. These deer are already adapted to finding ALL of their needs met in this centralized feeding area adjacent to premium cover.
People argue incessantly over the the appearance of "preference" of one food type over another and in so doing completely overlook the factors that are really important.
1) Safe secure bedding areas
2) A combination of food sources that provide food YEAR AROUND
3) A safe, hidden, well screened feeding area
4) ONE centralized feeding area per 80-120 acres
In our endeavor to provide year around food sources the value of root crops cannot be underestimated...and ordinary Purple Top Turnips are hard to beat! With proper fertilization and seeding rate...these things can get huge and my friend Walt pulled one up to see just how big it was!
A few feet further we found even bigger ones but...best we leave them for the deer!
The Groundhog forage radishes did very well too
Even though nearly every plant was eaten to the root top!!
Here's a pic of a GHFR next to an uneaten rape plant...which might cause some of you to think...why plant the rape then? Because the GHFR garnered all the attention so far, it allowed the rape and turnip to grow and they in turn will provide feed well into mid winter. Having the right combination of plants/crops then is extremely important because having one alone can leave you with a bare plot and your deer at the neighbors...
Each case is different of course and one property may see little activity while another may end up with food sources completely wiped out so it is important to assume you will have the latter and plant a combination of crops that will prevent this from happening. Rye and clover for instance can take a pounding and still keep attracting deer while corn, beans and brassicas can be annihilated and that's it...nothing to hold deer.
Rich does an outstanding job of managing his farm for big whitetails and leaves no stone unturned in doing so and in turn consistently kills giant whitetails...if Rich can see the value in splitting his plots and providing multiple crops within that plot to keep deer coming there year around....perhaps you may as well....
On the property my family currently owns, we have several fields we allow the farmer to harvest for hay. He does his last cutting in August, leaving the field pretty short for the fall. I personally would rather the fields be planted to trees or NWSG so that the deer have more bedding areas and less food. Do you think I should tell him that he can no longer take hay from these fields so that I can allow them to become overgrown? (he doesn't pay us enough to justify allowing them to stay in fields)
dbltree
Super Moderator
I can't say for certain without seeing the entire farm but in many cases fields that produce little or no income are certainly better off in cover. Your welcome to email me an aerial map if you wish...
dbltree2000@yahoo.com