Clover

[dbltree]

Is the inoculant the same as fertilizer?

No...Inoculation is the process of adding the proper Rhizobia bacteria to the legume seed so that N2-fixation can occur.

Most Welters clover seed is pre-inoculated but buying a fresh bag of it won't hurt...it's cheap enough!

Alfalfa/Clover Inoculation

I believe I posted pics earlier in this thread of how to mix it...little water (don't use soda)and take along something to wash your hands...won't hurt you but your hands will be black as coal!

Fertilizer is entirely different and for clover you can buy bagged 6-24-24 for a small area.

200-300#'s per acre will do the trick or dig up your soil test and see what it calls for.

Bulk fertilizer is cheaper of course but hard to get a cart/spreader for a small amount and if the area is steep it might not be safe anyway.

This link explains fertilizing and inoculating legumes:

Fertilizing Alfalfa and Clover

 

[Iowabowtech]

Well, I'm heading out Friday to clear up some areas I want to frost seed with clover. This will be my first try and I'm really wondering how I'm going to select a setting on either a hand operated seeder or a walk behind broadcast seeder to get the recommended 2-4 lbs/acre?

The seed seems to be a tad expensive to be going overboard for no reason. Any tips?

 

[dbltree]

Well, I'm heading out Friday to clear up some areas I want to frost seed with clover. This will be my first try and I'm really wondering how I'm going to select a setting on either a hand operated seeder or a walk behind broadcast seeder to get the recommended 2-4 lbs/acre?

The seed seems to be a tad expensive to be going overboard for no reason. Any tips?

I use a small grass seeder set on the lowest setting. I go at a fast walk until I've crossed the plot one way...and then turn and repeat the process the other way to keep from missing areas.

It is a little "by guess and by gosh" when hand seeding such fine seed.

If I have seed left over then I just go back over the plot until I've used it up...which is a whole lot better then running out

It's even difficult to close down a bag type seeder so I use a small grass seeder like this one:

If you have several small plots to do, then pace them off and figure out how much seed you need for each one and divide it a head of time.

 

[Iowabowtech]

If you have several small plots to do, then pace them off and figure out how much seed you need for each one and divide it a head of time.

Great thinking and I appreciate the other tips as well. Thanks for the continual help and knowledge on this stuff Paul.

 

[huntdoc]

I think you have covered this before, but I am getting nervous ahead of my first frost seeding. Do you inoculate when frost seeding? Still have 10 inches of snow to melt but may not take long.

 

[dbltree]

Do you inoculate when frost seeding?

Yes...always us inoculant any time you seed legumes.

It's often pre-inoculated but it may be old so for a few bucks...why take a chance.

Welter's clover seed is almost always pre-inoculated but I always add some fresh "dirt" (it's just a little bag of peat like substance)

 

[Shedhuntermd]

Is the end of February too early to frost seed cover?

This will be my first time frost seeding; I hope the early germination will help out compete the weeds.

I am planning to plant 6 more acres March 2nd, Maryland is a little warmer, but not too much.

 

[dbltree]

Is the end of February too early to frost seed clover?

Nope...maybe as good as it gets!

Normally we get good "frost seeding" weather thru mid-March but the next few days and into next week look perfect!

 

[risto2351]

Dbl.
Sent my order in. I am getting Jumbo Ladino, Kopu II and some Alice Clover.

I will probably use the Alice, Chicory
and some of the other around the pond.
What I have let will be used at other areas. Alsike looked good but has a short life span.
Top notch service. Thanks for the reference.

Something should grow.

 

[huntdoc]

Besides wasting money, what will using too heavy of a seeding rate with clover do? Will it supress growth like other seed? Guess I figured to go heavy since this isn't as efficient as tilled ground.

Calling from freezing rain, ice, and then maybe snow here so not looking good.

 

[bjkpharmd]

I've always seeded on the heavy side- would rather have wasted a little seed than have a sparse thin stand that I'm not happy about.
There is still plenty of time to seed- clover will germinate is fairly cold ground but it is going to be early April (at least in SE Iowa) most years before any real growth occurs.
I still want to run a harrow over some clumps and fill in some holes before I seed so I'm hoping for a little cold dry weather once the snow melts.

 

[dbltree]

I've always seeded on the heavy side- would rather have wasted a little seed than have a sparse thin stand that I'm not happy about.
There is still plenty of time to seed- clover will germinate is fairly cold ground but it is going to be early April (at least in SE Iowa) most years before any real growth occurs.

Can't beat that advice!

 

[dbltree]

Frost seeding chicory into Clover

I posted this info in the Alfalfa thread but many of you will be frost seeding clover and chicory at the same time...so I'll include it here as well.

It's the first full week of March and the weather and timing are perfect!

Ground is froze hard enough to walk on in the morning...but turning to "grease" by late morning.

Boys...it don't get no better then this for frost seeding! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

I was seeding chicory only:

but you could easily mix it and add some inoculant (it won't hurt the chicory)

Chicory seed is a little bulkier then clover but not very heavy, so it doesn't spread very far.

I spread some on to a new late summer seeding (I could have just planted it at the same time /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif )

Not much residue so it will make for good soil/seed contact:

This is a year old clover seeding with a little more "trash" from foxtail that came up late in the summer...we'll see how it does.

There are only a few types of chicory commonly available of wich Puna is an old standby.

I planted Oasis at 3-4# per acre at a cost of $6.20 a pound.

Oasis Forage Chicory

Puna Chicory

In a mix it's reccomended to go 2-3# per acre but when frost seeding I generally go a little heavier.

Some links on chicory and how to mange it:

Forage Chicory

Growing Chicory

About Chicory

Barenbrug Forage Chicory Varieties

Chicory

Pics of chicory:

Puna Chicory:

No-tilled into bermuda sod:

This after a severe drought..only thing green is the puna chicory:

If you are going to frost seed a mix of clover and chicory I would conside a mix of the following:

Alice White Clover

Kopu II White Clover

Jumbo Ladino White Clover

don't foget Clover Inoculate it's cheap insurance!

At approx 2# each it will run you approx. $36 an acre

or there other options that cost considerably more but are fine products nonetheless:

CHICORY PLUS

210 Tecomate Chicory

Clover and Chicory Blend

Cabela's Ultimate Forage - Chicory

Mossy Oak® BioLogic™ Chicory Seed

Seeds by the pound

Albert Lea Seed House NZ Clover

Obviously there plenty of choices and price ranges.

When it comes to clover mixes...beware...many include cheaper Red Clovers and annuals such as Berseem clover (Berseem CANNOT be frost seeded)

I would also beware of "scientifically engineered" claims as well... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smirk.gif

 

[dbltree]

White clover is one of the highest in crude protein often as high as 25% or higher. (red clover is often only 15 to 18%)

Keep in mind that in all crops CP and TDN can vary widely even in a particuler field let alone bewteen different plots and at different testing stages.

White and ladino clovers are generally considered the best grazing clovers and university agronimist's have spent years developing better clovers.

They search out those specimens that can survive drought and the heavy trampling of 1200# cows and develop better strains.

Seed companies such as Ampac and Barenburg then continue that research commercially and eventually market a superior type of seed thru your local seed dealer or places like Welters Seed

Knowing the attributes of clover varieties can help you decide which clovers or blends of clover seed will grow best in your situation.

Alice White Clover has proven to be one of the top varieties in studies comparing clovers.

This LEGUME/FORB VARIETY EVALUATION shows that Alice outproduced other types and after 3 years was still #1

This Alice test proved how it was able to survive despite heavy grazing and drought.

This report compares the ability of a number of clovers to withstand years of heavy grazing....

2006 Red and White Clover Grazing report

Kopu II Clover is a New Zealand bred clover with similer attributes.

It's compared here: Pastures Benefit From White Clover

It's important to remember that forages like clover are constantly be refined and improved for the livestock industry where farmers must squeeze out every ounce of protien and production per acre that is possible.

They must have plants that will tolerate drought and not die out after several years like red clover.

This is how and why UGA agronimists developed Durana Clover it's an interesting process of selecting "survivor" plants when all others have ceased to exisit...and then breeding those plants to produce a better plant capable of surviving under seemingly impossible conditions.

The truth about Durana

Many clovers are bred from old standbys such as Will clover and California Ladino's...but most clovers you find today are much more productive.

I often mention Welter seed because they are a convenient and dependable source for most of my foodplot seeds, but many of these clovers are also available at your local ag supply...you just have to know what to ask for.

This year several of us will be planting a blend of clovers and grazing alfalfa purchased thru Welters.

Welters will sell you a pound or a truck load...just tell them how much you need, verus prepackaged amounts that may be too much or not enough.

Alice White Clover

Kopu II White Clover

Jumbo Ladino White Clover

Grazer Brand Alfalfa

They pay 1/2 the shipping on legumes and most is already inoculated, however for 4 bucks...I add fresh Clover Inoculate

This seed mix was $3.65 a pound and contains NO cheap annual or red clovers.

There are many other commercial mixes some of which I have planted in the past with no better or worse results.

I decided it might be interesting to plant these popular mixes side by side on each of my farms (thus comparing different areas/different deer) to see how each performs and compare costs to effectiveness.

I ordered DURANA Clover

Imperial Whitetail Clover

Biologic Clover PLUS

Tecomate Monster Mix

I'll mark each side by side plot some of which I'll monitor with trail cams and some I'll be able to observe this fall while hunting.

It's possible we may even be able to do some forage analysis to see if there is any substantial difference in protein levels.

It should prove interesting an give everyone some side by side comaprisons to help in you seed selection for future plots.

Stay tuned! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

[risto2351]

Dbl.
I did some frost seeding a couple of weeks back. Should I of added fertilizer then ( I did not) or should I do it now?

Risto

 

[dbltree]

Dbl.
I did some frost seeding a couple of weeks back. Should I of added fertilizer then ( I did not) or should I do it now?

Risto

Better to put it on now since it won't be tilled in. It will take a while for the fertilizer to dissolve into the soil and the clover will be able to take advantage of it as it starts to grow later in the spring.

Without a soil test, 200-300#'s of 6-24-24 is a good one to get things going.

Just make sure it's dry enough so you don't tear up your new seeding, otherwise you'd be better off to wait.

 

[dbltree]

Re: Clover/Biologic New Zealand Clover Plus

My clover seed is starting to trickle in...so I'll post the seed types of each as they arrive.

Biologic New Zealand Clover Plus came today and contains the following:

15.45% Border Balansa Clover (annual)
14.25% Tigri Berseem Clover (annual)
13.10% Rivendel White Clover
7.86% Kenland Red Clover (lasts approx. 2 years)
5.15% 6 point Chicory
4.50% Timaru 2 Chicory
3.85% Waimak White Clover
3.35% Temuka White Clover
31.92% Inert Matter (coating material)

Border Balansa Annual Clover
Origin and Breeding
Was bred by SGA and is a very prolific annual clover suitable for mixed and difficult soil types. Border is quick maturing (105 days to 50% flowering) and is suitable for grazing or single cut forage production. It has highly perfumed white flowers.

Berseem clover is an annual clover that is very inexpensive seed available from a source such as Welters.

Berseem Clover

Rivendel small leaf white clover: (S) New release from DLF seeds small leaf with high stolon density. Selected for persistance under close grazing situations.

Kenland Red Clover: Kenland red clover was released several years ago. It has good resistance to southern anthracnose, which is especially destructive to red clover stands in the southern Corn Belt. It has superior yielding ability over most other varieties and has a longer life than common red clover. It reportedly has more resistance to crown and root rots than seed originating from the northern United States, last about 2 years.


Seed source

Compare to Freedom Red Clover

WRIGHTSON SEEDS has some excellent white clovers such as KopuII, Osceola and Tahora. (WRIGHTSON SEEDS is a NZ seed source where you will find many familier items such as Puna Chicory, Kopu 2 clover, Appin Turnips etc.)

I find it interesting that barely 30% of the Biologic mix contains perennial clovers while the rest is very inexpensive annual or 2 year clovers and "inert matter" /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/frown.gif

This mix was very expensive at $10 a pound! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

In searching out information I've found that seed companies like Barenburg are pretty much world wide with divisions in nearly every country.


They have long ago taken advantage of each others technology by combining efforts...so "New Zealand" seed is hardly something new and different.

I also found that most clovers that some would have you believe were developed specifically for deer in NZ were bred for other characteristics for grazing all types of dairy cattle and sheep.

It's all great seed but consider if you really want to pay $5-7 a pound for cheap annual clovers that normally costs 2 bucks a pound or purchase exactly what you want...premium white clover that will last for years with good management.

 

[dbltree]

Re: Clover/Tecomate Monster Mix

Tecomate Monster Mix also arrived today with the following seedlist:

24.98% Barblanca White Clover
19.63% Forage Feast Chicory
16.48% Tripoli White Clover
9.88 % Manna Berseem Clover
9.84 % Mammoth Red Clover
18.54% Coating Material

BARBLANCA Barenburg USA
New medium leaved variety with excellent persistency making it very suitable for intensive grazing systems. Its aggressive growth habit enables the variety to compete with rye grass. Good early spring growth and some winter growth.

Forage Feast Chicory Barenbrug Forage Chicory Varieties

This variety has been bred in France after screening in the USA. It has better resistance to bolting than other varieties. Forage Feast is highly palatable to livestock and wild game. Less bolting also means more leaves and higher energy.

Tripoli Barenbrug Forage White Clover Varieties note the comparison to Alice clover.

Tripoli is a very unique white clover. It is one of the very few varieties that has persisted through some of the worst summers in the South. Stands of Tripoli survived both extreme summers of ’97 and ’98 at numerous locations in Texas and Louisiana. The genetics of this variety go back to the deserts of North Africa, which explains its tolerance to hot and dry summers.

Berseem clover: annual clover BERSEEM CLOVER

The Dos And Don'ts Of Berseem Clover

Mammoth Red Clover:They usually produce one hay crop plus an aftermath growth. Mammoth red clover has yielded from 15 to 40 percent less hay in tests throughout the lower Corn Belt. Mammoth red clover is not recommended for use in Missouri; its best performance is in areas with short growing seasons such as Canada. Biennial clover in most cases.

Red Clover


More red clover info


Based on the seed mix I like this one

Pretty is as pretty does but unlike the mix in my previous post this mix contains more of what your looking for....a high % of top quality white clovers and chicory.

Mammoth red clover is IMO a poor choice but this mix does not contain an excessive amount of either red or berseem clover.

The price is reasonable if your looking for a ready to plant mix at a around $4.20 plus shipping a pound.

 

[huntdoc]

Re: Clover/Tecomate Monster Mix

Maybe a dumb question but figure if I ask publicly then I save someone else the trouble /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

I have rye growing in my clover that was put in as a cover crop last fall for a new no-till plot. Should I kill the rye ASAP to prevent competition? Is its usefulness done? Other than the rye, my main concern in my plots is broadleaf weeds so this directs my next herbicide step.

 

[bjkpharmd]

Re: Clover/Tecomate Monster Mix

If you clip it as soon as it starts to head out it will kill it and the clipping will help on the weeds. If you have a weed wiper you can kill it at a low level before heading out without mowing.