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Cull buck myth

moosehunter

moosehunter

PMA Member
I've believed for years that it is impossible to tell if a young buck will ever amount to anything. Especially after having a long discussion with a captive deer breeder. Shooting a smaller buck to get him out of the gene pool? How could anyone know what the deer would have turned into? Especially wild, free roaming deer. Here's an interesting artical to support my modest and and humble opinion.

http://www.realtree.com/deer-hunting/galleries/photo-gallery-from-buttons-to-booner
 
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I personally don't know anyone that shoots young bucks as cull bucks?!??! Certainly not spikes, 1 year olds, 2 year olds, etc.
In very short, my reasoning and most of my buddies.... We wait until generally 4 years old to deem a deer a "cull buck" & have a good feeling what he will or won't turn into. So, some poor genetic 4 year olds will be shot on my farms. 4 year old great genetic bucks get passed on my place but that's just me & my choice.
The reason we shoot the 4 year old & older poor genetic bucks is: my ground will only support so many bucks. I can't pass 40 bucks and think 40 will stay. Only so many mature or older bucks will tolerate eachother. Many of the poor genetic 4 year olds are bullies and run many other deer off. We target those deer in the hopes it makes room for others to move in, hopefully (roll of the dice) with better genetics and often that happens. It works incredibly well. Not trying to change the genetic pool (yet, I have to imagine, getting rid of many bucks that could breed for many more years has to do SOMETHING) - just make management choices on the deer I would prefer take the limited space & resources on the farm.
 
First of all, nice to see you posting Moose!!

As for my opinions on the subject, and in correlation with the article that you attached...I personally would not have identified that buck as a cull buck because he was a spike at 1-1/2, nor would I have identified him as a cull due to this rack when he was a 2-1/2 or a 3-1/2...I don't see anything there that would cause me to ever deem him a cull buck because he grew noticeably every year for the first 4 years.

A buck that I would consider a cull buck is one that has a mature body and still has a 125"ish rack when he is 4 or 5 or older and the antler growth is clearly plateaued.

161-imag0912.jpg


Above is a buck that to me is a cull buck. He is 5-1/2 and had just about that same rack for 3 years now.
 
Cull bucks

Sligh1 said:
I personally don't know anyone that shoots young bucks as cull bucks?!??! Certainly not spikes, 1 year olds, 2 year olds, etc.
In very short, my reasoning and most of my buddies.... We wait until generally 4 years old to deem a deer a "cull buck" & have a good feeling what he will or won't turn into. So, some poor genetic 4 year olds will be shot on my farms. 4 year old great genetic bucks get passed on my place but that's just me & my choice.
The reason we shoot the 4 year old & older poor genetic bucks is: my ground will only support so many bucks. I can't pass 40 bucks and think 40 will stay. Only so many mature or older bucks will tolerate eachother. Many of the poor genetic 4 year olds are bullies and run many other deer off. We target those deer in the hopes it makes room for others to move in, hopefully (roll of the dice) with better genetics and often that happens. It works incredibly well. Not trying to change the genetic pool (yet, I have to imagine, getting rid of many bucks that could breed for many more years has to do SOMETHING) - just make management choices on the deer I would prefer take the limited space & resources on the farm.
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I like to read Charles A articles and this is a good one. Most landowners are not culling spikes like Skip put it....I agree with his philosophy.

Add to this a buck that has an old injury (deformed rack) and we try to get him. Last year my son had a crack at a 3 legged deer--we called him 3 wheeler--- that was probably 3 years old. Bad deformed rack and hobbling on 3 legs. He made it through the winter so he is tough. If we don't get him, no big deal, but he is on the list if he walks by. This was in MN.
 
Agree with the previous statements. We will not determine if it is a cull buck until 4 or 5 years old. Usually they will have 8 points or less and score below 130.
 
I posted a picture of what I deem is a potential "cull" buck. I would agree with the sentiments so far, one thing that others might not agree on and to some extend I don't either, but I think at 3yrs old you typically know what you are getting in a deer frame wise. Yes, he might go from an 8-10 and grow some character points and mass, but rarely does anything crazy beyond that happen. For that reason along with how bucks change behaviorally from 3 to 4-5 year olds I almost think they are worth taking out at 3 if possible just because your odds are so much greater at seeing them and harvesting them. There is nothing worse than having a bully buck keeping other, younger more genetically inclined bucks from the area and breeding does. You set out to hunt him, but he is nothing more than a nocturnal bully buck, with inferior genes that you just can't locate in the day time and then, can't get off your farm.
 
I agree 100% with the clip. You never know what will happen. No such thing as a cull buck. maybe a injured buck that has some sort of ailment is all.
 
Buck-Man said:
I agree 100% with the clip. You never know what will happen. No such thing as a cull buck. maybe a injured buck that has some sort of ailment is all.
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Although he "genetically" is fine, the injured deer will never score what he would have if he wouldn't have been injured or was 100% healthy.

Again, genetically you are correct with an injured deer. That is why trail cams are so nice, you can see changes from deer one year to the next.
 
Buck-Man said:
I agree 100% with the clip. You never know what will happen. No such thing as a cull buck. maybe a injured buck that has some sort of ailment is all.
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If I have a deer that I know is 5-6 years old and is only still in the 120's-130's- I think it is safe to say he isn't going to blow up into something really special (to me) I would consider that a Cull Buck. again- to each their own
 
BDAHMS said:
If I have a deer that I know is 5-6 years old and is only still in the 120's-130's- I think it is safe to say he isn't going to blow up into something really special (to me) I would consider that a Cull Buck. again- to each their own
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EXACTLY. Even if he could be something, wouldn't you hope the rare 150" 3 year old took his place?
Honestly, I have a hard time getting all our management bucks killed every year. Really hard. I pass them SOMETIMES because I'll save them for a buddy that really wants to gun for him. I usually have 7 or 8 that need to go. We usually end up shooting maybe 5 on average, buddies & myself. one of my tags goes to management buck, one tag for a good gen buck & then who knows, i never usually use that 3rd tag.
I'll admit, I've had a tough time when a buddy decides or thinks he doesn't wanna shoot a 140" 6 year old. A buck I'm still elated to shoot. Love it. Makes things a little tough & awkward. Even more awkward when I let someone hunt for an old buck I'd like to kill too and they ask me "so, you're making pass this 3 year old 155-160?" and I have to be the JERK and say "sorry, ya". Gets worse when the dreaded "I accidentally killed your best 2 or 3 year old" shot happens, which has been a LONG LONG time since that but it's happened. That's hunting. Management is fun to me and us hunters being a killing & management TOOL is fun & works great (most of the time! :) ).
 
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I don't dispute there are bucks that will never grow large racks but that does not mean thier offspring won't. The deer breeder I had a conversation with had documented that breeding his prize bucks with just any doe did not nesessarily produce prized offspring. Once he paired up his bucks with "good does" they almost always produced large antlered offspring. He maintained good does were more than 50% of the equation. That conversation just reafirmed my belief that nobody knows what kind of offspring that smaller racked mature deer may produce.
 
moosehunter said:
I don't dispute there are bucks that will never grow large racks but that does not mean thier offspring won't. The deer breeder I had a conversation with had documented that breeding his prize bucks with just any doe did not nesessarily produce prized offspring. Once he paired up his bucks with "good does" they almost always produced large antlered offspring. He maintained good does were more than 50% of the equation. That conversation just reafirmed my belief that nobody knows what kind of offspring that smaller racked mature deer may produce.
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I agree that a good doe is a huge part of the equation. But the buck still passed on genes. We had a buck years ago that would grow one nice side and one spear on the other side. For multiple years we had multiple bucks with lopsided non fully developed on one side deer around the area with a few of them only having a spike on the one side. You can't tell me that was just a lame doe in the area-
 
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moosehunter said:
I don't dispute there are bucks that will never grow large racks but that does not mean thier offspring won't. The deer breeder I had a conversation with had documented that breeding his prize bucks with just any doe did not nesessarily produce prized offspring. Once he paired up his bucks with "good does" they almost always produced large antlered offspring. He maintained good does were more than 50% of the equation. That conversation just reafirmed my belief that nobody knows what kind of offspring that smaller racked mature deer may produce.
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I agree as well, but not only thinking long term "down the road", but what about the present, and the effects of that deer on that particular farm while he is alive. His behavior alone in terms of potentially keeping other deer from breeding and pushing younger deer out because of his behavior is another problem. Sure, your target buck is probably doing the same thing, but again we come back to who would we rather "choose" to breed our does our top buck or some "iffy" mature buck. I think we all know the answer. Again, the mentality of that buck and his behavior towards other bucks is a big part of the equation as well in terms of getting him off the farm. Some bucks keep to themselves some just like people, are aggressive and bullies.
 
Some bucks keep to themselves some just like people, are aggressive and bullies
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Luvstuen buck for example

100% agree.

Here is maybe a little bit funny but still a valid comparison. I could be considered a cull buck. Mature, (though maybe a little on the down side), average body, average looks, above average personality. My wife, although mature, posesses above average body, above average looks and above average personality. Yeh, I did good. Our three sons are all bigger, stronger, and better looking than I am. Though I still have them beat in the personality department. They definetly got the better genes from my wife and her side of the family. So if some hunter would have taken me out years ago there might be three less big bucks running around. Food for thought.....................
 
moosehunter said:
Luvstuen buck for example

100% agree.

Here is maybe a little bit funny but still a valid comparison. I could be considered a cull buck. Mature, (though maybe a little on the down side), average body, average looks, above average personality. My wife, although mature, posesses above average body, above average looks and above average personality. Yeh, I did good. Our three sons are all bigger, stronger, and better looking than I am. Though I still have them beat in the personality department. They definetly got the better genes from my wife and her side of the family. So if some hunter would have taken me out years ago there might be three less big bucks running around. Food for thought.....................
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LOL, I am a cull buck for sure!
 
2+ (video)



4=cull

I highly doubt this buck would ever blow up into anything besides being below average...since he was that the first 4 years of his life.


 
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moosehunter said:
I don't dispute there are bucks that will never grow large racks but that does not mean thier offspring won't. The deer breeder I had a conversation with had documented that breeding his prize bucks with just any doe did not nesessarily produce prized offspring. Once he paired up his bucks with "good does" they almost always produced large antlered offspring. He maintained good does were more than 50% of the equation. That conversation just reafirmed my belief that nobody knows what kind of offspring that smaller racked mature deer may produce.
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What abot the doe offspring that big deer produces?? What do those does have?
 
Who cares if the horns aint perddy? I like to harvest a Mature buck. One that has managed to make it thru a few seasons, To me that is the real prize, no matter the head gear.
 
loneranger said:
Who cares if the horns aint perddy? I like to harvest a Mature buck. One that has managed to make it thru a few seasons, To me that is the real prize, no matter the head gear.
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Agreed, they are just a total different animal. Figure might as well maximize the genetic potential, just like when doing a timber harvest to keep the best around the longest.

Not necessarily for any "genetic" reasons, but just to maximize what is there before my eyes. Might as well have a 180" 5 year old as a 140" 5 year old...either one will get it tho :D
 
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