Muzzy baby!!I remember YEARS AGO, it was fun watching Dan Fitzgerald shooting does.
Giant Deer of Iowa are rapidly becoming a past memory
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Daver
PMA Member
I saw the same thing ^^ you did and had the exact same reaction. And I know and like Pat.
But goodness, gracious...what's left in terms of electronic surveillance? Implanting tracking devices into the quarry and then following them with telemetry and/or drones?
I may regret sharing this, as the person that made this comment recently may actually read this here, but...here goes.
In the name of NOT high grading, greatly aided by cell cams BTW, a few of us neighbors recently declared a particular buck to NOT be a shooter this year. (We have him on regular trail cam, as we don't use cell cams for deer.)
The neighbors in this circle can be trusted to then NOT shoot this guy. In fact, between myself, my son and at least one close neighbor, this buck was given at least 4 passes last year, with archery equipment. I had him at 7 yards last year on Halloween, FWIW. I never said this buck is particularly wily.
So far, so good. But then that 'pact" was shared with another neighbor who has pledged previously to also be persuaded not to shoot certain bucks, despite doing so more than once in the past. Their comment, "I don't know, that's a real nice one for my "XX" acres." With "XX" being significantly less than 100 acres. And there it is...
I'll say again, there was a day not all that long ago where such intel just wasn't even a thing and therefore, this hi po buck would have a LOT more of chance to make it to next year, etc. Now..."everyone" knows about them and it only takes one shooter in the neighborhood to make sure such a beast does not reach their potential.
We're too dang good as hunters these days and/or we have way too much technology, and consequently intel, on our side...IMO.
Daver
PMA Member
Yes, IMO, there is an argument that cams can be used to help avoid high grading. FWIW, I feel like that is what we do on our place. We use regular cams to document things, study up on them and then usually end up with a very short hit list, as we are quite committed to getting bucks to older ages. (Admittedly, mistakes have been made in the past, but are pretty rare, maybe non-existant nowadays on that front. Meanwhile, LOTS of bucks have been passed in an effort to get more of them to older ages, 5+.)
My heartburn comes mainly from cell cams, where hunters are many times using them to influence their hunts TODAY based on up to the minute electronic surveillance. I think the example that you shared would actually help to avoid high grading. But, the devil is in the details with the key question being, "HOW" will that info be used.
Wind Gypsy
Member
Sure, doe genetics are as or more important but that doesn't make the buck's contribution nil. I buy that it's almost impossible for hunters to intentionally improve the genetics of a herd but I also buy that high grading is a thing that the motivations/knowledge of the critical mass of hunters can and does impact genetics.
I agree. In my opinion it is easier to take antler genetics down than up. MO is a prime example and the golden triangle of Illinois would be another. I’ve referred to it as reverse Darwinism. Artificially removing the top tier bucks which are less than 20% of the population can negatively impact the largest antler genetics going forward. There is research that also supports that antler point restrictions can also indirectly have the same impact. Deer antlers relatively come in a bell shaped curve with the average being the deer we are culling. There are way more bucks that fall in the middle class/cull bucks than there are in the superior antler class so to impact genetics you would have to remove A LOT of culls for every good deer that gets shot to move the needle much. I grew up in MO within a few miles of Iowa and consistently heard “why are the deer so much better right across the line”? Iowa has better regs and consequently better age classes/genetics (historically) but even in MO I know of 3-4 6+ yo deer each year from sheds and trail cam pics and these bucks consistently don’t make it out of the 150s.
booneriverbucks
PMA Member
There is absolutely no doubt cell cams and cams in general can help people achieve high end management goals.. when it comes to regulation tho we are dealing with the masses.. For every deer some of us are identifying as good geneitic 3/4 year olds that we want to pass up others are identifying those same deer as target bucks. I’m not saying anybody is wrong in this situation but that is what is happening. We have way too much intel on these things these days. It’s just reality. Some like it, others are claiming to see a degradation in high end trophy quality because of it.
One other thing. In general terms Iowa is easy to hunt compared to some other places. There isnt endless cover. Its pretty obvious what deer are going to do.
One example. I scouted southern Ohio extensively for 4 straight days. Theres alot of places in didn't even know where to start. Gigantic swaths of timber. Mini mountains. Incredibly difficult hunting imo.
Spots in Kansas. Vast vast areas away from everything. Deer can just disappear.
Harder for deer to get old in Iowa IMO. If not for the regulations Iowa would be terrible in a hurry.
One example. I scouted southern Ohio extensively for 4 straight days. Theres alot of places in didn't even know where to start. Gigantic swaths of timber. Mini mountains. Incredibly difficult hunting imo.
Spots in Kansas. Vast vast areas away from everything. Deer can just disappear.
Harder for deer to get old in Iowa IMO. If not for the regulations Iowa would be terrible in a hurry.
booneriverbucks
PMA Member
100%%%%%. Totally fragile!! Crossbows,added seasons, weapons, increase in non res tags etc.. and does.. we already kill enough!!!
REALLY GOOD points on all sides. Just read it all. See if I can encapsulate this all right & throw out a few responses. But gather a good summary…..
In 30 years:
*No change in the animal: they escape with eyes, noses & ears - 0 has changed with their abilities.
1) had no cameras at all to cams everywhere
2) guns went from around a 50-75 yard range to 300+
3) bows probably went from 25 to 40 yards (not a big deal to be honest)
4) population of deer cut in half. Yes, well before that we wiped the deer out but we peaked around 2008. We wiped out whole regions at far more than 50% impact. Some areas down 90%+ while others only down 10% for example.
5) lost a higher proportion of trees & CRP In top 2/3rd of state.
6) biggest one IMO…. In 30 years I’ve personally seen about 4-5 bad ehd outbreaks in different regions of the state. These ehd outbreaks have wiped areas out. If you avoided an outbreak 10 miles away- deer disperse & still impacts you. Ehd has been a sledge hammer to damage to our herd.
7) add to above when ehd hit, habitat lost & we had several years of politicians approving of wipe outs for deer tags. Ehd aside- late shed buck seasons, etc have wiped areas out. Since like 2008-ish…. I’ve seen limitless dudes with rifles take mountains of deer to the HUSH program & dump them. Maybe not as bad recently but we’ve had years of that in last 20 years. Deer in general: does, button bucks & shed bucks- total war with rifles in areas that already got pounded all season. Brutal what it did to regions. Last tidbit- farm bureau will never stop until there’s literally 0 deer. They want NONE.
Ok….. quick feedback or tidbits…..
1) iowa is the only state in Midwest a LO can shoot 3 bucks. Most are 1 or 2. Does that mean we need to change it? Not neccessarily …. But can’t we start by saying “do we need to have 3 bucks? PLUS transfer party tags + an urban tag?” “But most people don’t use 3, 4 or 5+ tags”…. Agree…. But there’s some that do & also a lot of those tags get a lot of bucks shot that “well had I been more limited, I woulda passed that young one”. We are 3-5 bucks if a guy really wanted…. I don’t know what the realistic change is…. But ethically, logically & by any conparison to any other state it makes little sense. Especially when we are hurting.
Not saying we change to 1 buck. I’m not. But- I have to ask…. If I could only shoot 1 buck & “3 does” (say in a region with a lot of deer) - how isn’t that enough??? To me it is. If it’s not about “big bucks” - why do we need 2 or 3 per person? & yes, cull bucks are 0 issue to get shot …. YOU or a kid or a buddy- there’s 0 shortage of guys who will shoot them. For every 5 bullies or culls we have - there’s “50 guys” asking if they can hunt them I trust. We do this in ks where it’s a 1 buck state- unlimited amount of hunters that will jump at opportunity to shoot an old bully. When they don’t get shot- it’s not how many tags you have- it’s just a laziness or priority issue if they are not shot. & yes- they are Also smart But those that prioritize it have no issue on bullies. One gets put on our list- he’s got 99.99999% chance of dying.
Lowering buck tags doesn’t reflect “well everyone was filling 3 buck tags or 2”. What it does…. It’s a psychology…. Indiana had same argument “but only 10% shoot 2 bucks!” They changed & their hunting exploded!!!! Not because it saved the 10% that were 2nd tags… it was because guys got super picky & passed more bucks. & tagged out & we’re done. It works & makes huge benefit to OH, IN, KS. Not saying we have to do it but there’s some merits to it and there’s some argument that 3-5 buck limits are madness.
Age class is our issue of course. Shooting bullies is critical but getting more bucks to maturity will solve a lot of this. A lot also involves getting population up in most the state. That impacts age class as there’s more bucks. So yes, population increase in regions is FOR SURE something we must do & have. Yes- rhe targeting of the best 2-4 year olds & passing lessor older deer is also a HUGE issue!!!!! That’s one that can’t be regulated & that’s one we as hunters have to fix with education, awareness, etc. Most issues are: REGULATIONS! Top ending of best young bucks is not regs… it’s education & us hunters cleaning up our own house!!!! This ego to shoot a bomber 3.5 year old 160” to post & passing a 125” 6.5 year old - needs to change!!!!
Population up. Recover from ehd. Get rid of late shed buck season. Keep educating hunters. Then the changes… I don’t know… shorter seasons? We are far more lethal with far more technology but the deer haven’t changed a bit. Making it so u must have 24-48 hour delay on cameras? We probably need to dial the killing back in some form…. Maybe instead of 3 buck tags + sharing + urban buck…. Maybe we say “in no form, can any hunter tag more than 2 bucks per season”? Something like that. & our dnr is on the ball on the regions void of deer. DNR is best in the country!!!!!!! Things will get better as we are in a perfect storm of: ehd, killing too many, habitat loss & dudes targeting best bucks. Some of those things will fix themselves in time.
Very good stuff guys. Reading every drop & critically thinking on all this.
In 30 years:
*No change in the animal: they escape with eyes, noses & ears - 0 has changed with their abilities.
1) had no cameras at all to cams everywhere
2) guns went from around a 50-75 yard range to 300+
3) bows probably went from 25 to 40 yards (not a big deal to be honest)
4) population of deer cut in half. Yes, well before that we wiped the deer out but we peaked around 2008. We wiped out whole regions at far more than 50% impact. Some areas down 90%+ while others only down 10% for example.
5) lost a higher proportion of trees & CRP In top 2/3rd of state.
6) biggest one IMO…. In 30 years I’ve personally seen about 4-5 bad ehd outbreaks in different regions of the state. These ehd outbreaks have wiped areas out. If you avoided an outbreak 10 miles away- deer disperse & still impacts you. Ehd has been a sledge hammer to damage to our herd.
7) add to above when ehd hit, habitat lost & we had several years of politicians approving of wipe outs for deer tags. Ehd aside- late shed buck seasons, etc have wiped areas out. Since like 2008-ish…. I’ve seen limitless dudes with rifles take mountains of deer to the HUSH program & dump them. Maybe not as bad recently but we’ve had years of that in last 20 years. Deer in general: does, button bucks & shed bucks- total war with rifles in areas that already got pounded all season. Brutal what it did to regions. Last tidbit- farm bureau will never stop until there’s literally 0 deer. They want NONE.
Ok….. quick feedback or tidbits…..
1) iowa is the only state in Midwest a LO can shoot 3 bucks. Most are 1 or 2. Does that mean we need to change it? Not neccessarily …. But can’t we start by saying “do we need to have 3 bucks? PLUS transfer party tags + an urban tag?” “But most people don’t use 3, 4 or 5+ tags”…. Agree…. But there’s some that do & also a lot of those tags get a lot of bucks shot that “well had I been more limited, I woulda passed that young one”. We are 3-5 bucks if a guy really wanted…. I don’t know what the realistic change is…. But ethically, logically & by any conparison to any other state it makes little sense. Especially when we are hurting.
Not saying we change to 1 buck. I’m not. But- I have to ask…. If I could only shoot 1 buck & “3 does” (say in a region with a lot of deer) - how isn’t that enough??? To me it is. If it’s not about “big bucks” - why do we need 2 or 3 per person? & yes, cull bucks are 0 issue to get shot …. YOU or a kid or a buddy- there’s 0 shortage of guys who will shoot them. For every 5 bullies or culls we have - there’s “50 guys” asking if they can hunt them I trust. We do this in ks where it’s a 1 buck state- unlimited amount of hunters that will jump at opportunity to shoot an old bully. When they don’t get shot- it’s not how many tags you have- it’s just a laziness or priority issue if they are not shot. & yes- they are Also smart But those that prioritize it have no issue on bullies. One gets put on our list- he’s got 99.99999% chance of dying.
Lowering buck tags doesn’t reflect “well everyone was filling 3 buck tags or 2”. What it does…. It’s a psychology…. Indiana had same argument “but only 10% shoot 2 bucks!” They changed & their hunting exploded!!!! Not because it saved the 10% that were 2nd tags… it was because guys got super picky & passed more bucks. & tagged out & we’re done. It works & makes huge benefit to OH, IN, KS. Not saying we have to do it but there’s some merits to it and there’s some argument that 3-5 buck limits are madness.
Age class is our issue of course. Shooting bullies is critical but getting more bucks to maturity will solve a lot of this. A lot also involves getting population up in most the state. That impacts age class as there’s more bucks. So yes, population increase in regions is FOR SURE something we must do & have. Yes- rhe targeting of the best 2-4 year olds & passing lessor older deer is also a HUGE issue!!!!! That’s one that can’t be regulated & that’s one we as hunters have to fix with education, awareness, etc. Most issues are: REGULATIONS! Top ending of best young bucks is not regs… it’s education & us hunters cleaning up our own house!!!! This ego to shoot a bomber 3.5 year old 160” to post & passing a 125” 6.5 year old - needs to change!!!!
Population up. Recover from ehd. Get rid of late shed buck season. Keep educating hunters. Then the changes… I don’t know… shorter seasons? We are far more lethal with far more technology but the deer haven’t changed a bit. Making it so u must have 24-48 hour delay on cameras? We probably need to dial the killing back in some form…. Maybe instead of 3 buck tags + sharing + urban buck…. Maybe we say “in no form, can any hunter tag more than 2 bucks per season”? Something like that. & our dnr is on the ball on the regions void of deer. DNR is best in the country!!!!!!! Things will get better as we are in a perfect storm of: ehd, killing too many, habitat loss & dudes targeting best bucks. Some of those things will fix themselves in time.
Very good stuff guys. Reading every drop & critically thinking on all this.
Bucksnbears
Well-Known Member
Good to see you posting Skip. Was ready to send out a search party. Lol.
Reflecting back 25 ± years ago. (My area in nw Mn), we had LOTS OF BIG BUCKS! It was not uncommon to take a morning drive and see multiple 150" + deer.
Common to hear a couple hundred gunshots opening morning.
Bowhunters everywhere!.
Big groups pushing every available cover (sometimes) multiple times a day.
Orange army.. good God!
For years, me n buddies would line up on the edges of cornfield that were being combined (bows) and NO BODY CARED. Never asked/ never got chewed out.
Was super common to see 20/ 50 deer run out towards the end.
Posting land was almost unheard of. Just go....
Small town gas stations were ALWAYS busy with orange clad folks, shelves stocked with ammo(shotgun slugs), kids in most vehicles wearing hunting clothes that were obviously hand me down and they loved it!!. Confront any kid and they would talk your ear off about their hunt. They didn't care if they shot a fawn and we'd shake their hand and tell em " Awesome Job"!
Someone shot a spike, you shook their hand and said congratulations.
Some of the funnest times were after dark, stopping at a small town bar for a beer and before going in, walking by every pickup parked and looking in the back. Looking at everyone's harvests.
Fast forwards 25 year (currant).
I seldom see a 150+ deer anymore.
Lucky to hear 10 gunshots opening morning.
Can honestly say, I've only seen ONE bowhunter out since Sept 13 (opener).
Big groups making drives? Non existing and has been for years!. And I miss that. Used to be super fun parking while watching a deer drive going on, see 50 deer bust out and watch em cartwheel while watching through binos.
Deer in cornfield, ain't happing now. Talked to alot of farmers that say they haven't kicked a deer out while combining for years. Same ground as 25 years ago, similar deer population. I can't figger that one out?
Posted land...., everything now. What land used to belong to " Old FarmerJohnson that would let ANYBODY hunt has died and the younger, Me,Me,Me, generation has now got it.
What used to be stopping at farmer Johnsons after the hunt to have a cup of coffee n a donut is now " a, Who Are You and Get Off My Land"!
Small town gas stations are now sometimes closed on Sundays. Few even carry ammo.
Kids out hunting? What's that? Ain't happening around here. They had their
" youth season" and if they didn't get it done, Dads gonna make sure He gets the big buck himself!.
Stopping at a small town bar after the hunt nowdays..., best just walk in an order a beer. Don't dare walk and look into the back of parked pickups.
What does this rambling have to do with this threads topic, nothing...and EVERYTHING!.
Sadly, it's just the sign of the times.
I really miss the older times.
Reflecting back 25 ± years ago. (My area in nw Mn), we had LOTS OF BIG BUCKS! It was not uncommon to take a morning drive and see multiple 150" + deer.
Common to hear a couple hundred gunshots opening morning.
Bowhunters everywhere!.
Big groups pushing every available cover (sometimes) multiple times a day.
Orange army.. good God!
For years, me n buddies would line up on the edges of cornfield that were being combined (bows) and NO BODY CARED. Never asked/ never got chewed out.
Was super common to see 20/ 50 deer run out towards the end.
Posting land was almost unheard of. Just go....
Small town gas stations were ALWAYS busy with orange clad folks, shelves stocked with ammo(shotgun slugs), kids in most vehicles wearing hunting clothes that were obviously hand me down and they loved it!!. Confront any kid and they would talk your ear off about their hunt. They didn't care if they shot a fawn and we'd shake their hand and tell em " Awesome Job"!
Someone shot a spike, you shook their hand and said congratulations.
Some of the funnest times were after dark, stopping at a small town bar for a beer and before going in, walking by every pickup parked and looking in the back. Looking at everyone's harvests.
Fast forwards 25 year (currant).
I seldom see a 150+ deer anymore.
Lucky to hear 10 gunshots opening morning.
Can honestly say, I've only seen ONE bowhunter out since Sept 13 (opener).
Big groups making drives? Non existing and has been for years!. And I miss that. Used to be super fun parking while watching a deer drive going on, see 50 deer bust out and watch em cartwheel while watching through binos.
Deer in cornfield, ain't happing now. Talked to alot of farmers that say they haven't kicked a deer out while combining for years. Same ground as 25 years ago, similar deer population. I can't figger that one out?
Posted land...., everything now. What land used to belong to " Old FarmerJohnson that would let ANYBODY hunt has died and the younger, Me,Me,Me, generation has now got it.
What used to be stopping at farmer Johnsons after the hunt to have a cup of coffee n a donut is now " a, Who Are You and Get Off My Land"!
Small town gas stations are now sometimes closed on Sundays. Few even carry ammo.
Kids out hunting? What's that? Ain't happening around here. They had their
" youth season" and if they didn't get it done, Dads gonna make sure He gets the big buck himself!.
Stopping at a small town bar after the hunt nowdays..., best just walk in an order a beer. Don't dare walk and look into the back of parked pickups.
What does this rambling have to do with this threads topic, nothing...and EVERYTHING!.
Sadly, it's just the sign of the times.
I really miss the older times.
justinkarns
Active Member
SO WELL SAID!
Hardwood11
It is going to be a good fall!
Deer bedding in corn had kind of ended ? Is it the row size change ? I had to walk through a lot corn yesterday in Missouri. Didn’t bump any . Rarely see them bed in Minnesota, unless there is a pocket of grass in the middle? It’s different. We used to sneak up on bucks on windy days in the standing corn back in the 90s. I shot my very first buck with the bow that way ….It was a blast !
You and bucksbears bring up a good point. Late 90s I knew guys that sat around corn fields as they were being harvested to hunt the deer that were ran out by the combine. Rode a lot of hours in a combine back then just to see the deer run out. Now I laugh as people on here comment that the deer are all in the standing corn when harvest goes past the rut. Every year that we have standing corn into November I am still in the combine and RARELY see a deer and neighbors/family say the same thing. Deer don’t use the corn like they used to for some reason. I know some of the cattle guys including myself that have noticed cows don’t utilize corn stalks like they used to because of the GMO traits is what I have been told. Maybe same for deer or maybe the numbers are just that much lower than back in the 90s.
Bucksnbears
Well-Known Member
Corn plant spacing and no weeds/ grasses in them are what I think deters them from using them.
thecreedeer
Member
I disagree with the belief that moving to a one buck state is merely "Antler Lust". The fact is, that many deer hunters holding out for a larger buck (which is their choice), will go with un-filled tags. In reality that is still more bucks for the hunters that don't care about the size of the deer. That is more opportunity for the non- trophy hunter and more trophy's for those who are still holding out. Older mature bucks not only travel but don't like competition for does in a given area. There will be a better chance of seeing older deer for all hunters if they exist in the first place.
Good discussion. I think ethics or logic has nothing to do with shooting one, two or three bucks. It also has nothing to do with score of the deer you shoot or its age. That is because 1 1/2 years old can breed does just fine. You can have stable or growing populations regardless of the age class of your buck population. To imply different would mean that 50% of the of the hunters who fill their tags annually with 1 1/2 year olds are unethical or illogical. They are neither, because neither have anything to do with killing one, two or three bucks and those that do so are not doing anything wrong. The number of bucks tags doesn’t change population trends, just like a rooster pheasant he can and will breed multiple females. That is why our pheasant limit doesn’t change from three to five to one when populations swing up or down. It has no bearing whatsoever on population.
We are not a 3-5 buck state. We are a two buck state. One anysex tag for bow and one anysex tag with gun. Landowners are given an additional anysex tag because they essentially feed the deer herd. Again, 2,000 guys filled both a bow tag and a gun tag with bucks. If you count guys that bought one tag and a landowner tag that adds 1,200 to the number who killed two bucks. Then only 201 people tagged three bucks. So a total of 3,400 out of 160,000 hunters.
Here is another way to look at it. There were just over 160,000 tags sold last year. I believe around 166,000. I believe the DNR estimates approximately 70,000 bow hunters and just under 100,000 gun hunters. Let’s just say for the sake of discussion that there were only 80,000 deer hunters total and every single one of them bought a bow tag and a gun tag to total 160,000 licenses. So every deer hunter had two buck tags in their pocket last year. So last year the number of hunters that killed two bucks was 3200, the number who killed three bucks was 201. So let’s divide 3400/80,000 hunters. So that means 4.25% of hunters shot two bucks. That is less than one in twenty hunters actually took two bucks. Your dreaming if you think 1 more buck per twenty hunters will move the quality needle. Remember 50% of buck harvests are 1 1/2 year olds. That 1 1/2 year old buck more than likely has to make it through three more full seasons to get to 5 1/2 and give you that high end buck your after.
Obviously, the guys “managing” are already being selective. The guys that aren’t managing are shooting 1 1/2 year olds. The average guys that think they are managing are killing 160” three year olds and no culls. Which is why the high grading is happening and will continue. Going to a one buck State will intensify the high grading. The mid level managers are shooting older high scoring bucks typically 4 1/2 plus and are culling 3.5 year old and up lower scoring bucks. The top land managers with enough acres (the 1%) can allow the high end bucks to go past 5 1/2 with good chances they will make it and will aggressively cull low scoring bucks. The other 99% of landowners (smaller acreage) who manage can’t get high scoring deer to 5 1/2 with any consistency without neighbor cooperation.
I really don’t care about what other States around us are doing with regard to becoming a one buck State because they all have at least twice as many deer. Also, given the choice almost every serious deer hunter from those States would pick to live and hunt here in Iowa if they could. Most can’t because of work and family dynamics.
The seasons and regulation structure Iowa has had since the 1980’s has stood the test of time. We have had above average quality when compared to every other midwest State and Canada though population swings both up and down. Including now we are still where everyone wants to be. We are the top dog. It is not because we have more deer or better habitat. We have less of both compared to all other midwest States. Our success is because of our current regulation structure.
The weapons have changed. My old Bear Black Mag is a far cry from the current bows. But like Skip said 25-40 yards. When I bought my Hastings rifled slug barrel in the late 1980’s I could put every slug in a paper plate at 100 yards. Killed several bucks between 25-150 yards. Then I switched to muzzleloader in the mid 1990’s because my dad got into muzzleloading when he built a Hawkins 50 cal kit gun. Even though I had been hunting during shotgun, I usually hunted like I did with bow. I sat in a stand, on the ground or spot and stalked. Didn’t want to put up with the orange army anymore. So I bought a Remington 700 inline muzzleloader. I zeroed that at 150 yards and hunted. Again 0-200 yards the deer was in serious trouble. Even though I have never shot one over 150. Most straight wall 350, 400, and 450 are really 100-200 yard guns. Can you shoot any of the above further? Sure with enough arrows, ammo and time on the range. Most people won’t do that.
So are we really more lethal??? Our harvest numbers say no. We gradually increased harvest from the 1980’s as the population increased through the early 2000’s and now harvests have declined significantly as the population has been cut in half since 2008 levels. In the early 2000’s we harvested as many as 165,000 deer and the DNR sold as many as 240,000 licenses. Now we hover around 100,000 harvest and 160,000 licenses. Think about that. When we had the best hunting there were 60,000 more deer harvested and 80,000 more licenses issued.
I personally don’t think the average hunters effective range has really increased much with bow or gun since the mid 1990’s when the bow cams started advancing, inline muzzleloaders took off along with dedicated rifled slug guns. Again, can a guy shoot a bow 100 yards and hit a target consistently, yes maybe 1% of them, Can a guy spend 4k for a smokeless muzzleloader and shoot 400 yards, yes maybe 1% will go down that road, can a guy buy a dedicated slug gun or straight wall and shoot 300 yards, yes maybe 1% have that ability.
Has any of that caused the decline in quality? I don’t think so. Why? Because there were plenty of lethal weapons in place in the early to mid 2000’s when everyone was ecstatic about both our deer quality and population. We hunters did it to ourselves with over harvesting does and then continuing to shoot shed bucks in January. Then throw some EHD outbreaks on top of the decimated population and age structure. Thus, you have a perfect storm to decrease the top end bucks.
As far as killing bully bucks for the guys that want to manage. I will say this. If you have plenty of acreage to bring guys in to hunt your bully bucks while not putting pressure on your target bucks or up and comers. Great. Please do that because they will appreciate the opportunity to hunt managed ground. However, the reality of that for 99% of the guys managing is not likely because the odds of pushing one of your up and comers or target bucks off onto a neighbor to be killed is very likely. Skip, it is great that you offer others the opportunity to manage culls but the odds of pushing a buck off to be killed by one of your neighbors is slim at best because of the size of your farms and your neighbors all manage. Plus, your farm is not in a high pressured neighborhood. I guarantee you that 99% of most landowners don’t have that luxury.
If you’re a guy that owns an 80 and has a couple older age class low scoring bucks to cull you better do that when you get the chance. Because if you’re trying do your part to manage the herd and at the same time be a low impact hunter on a small acreage property. You are not going to pressure your property before or after your one buck tag is filled by letting a bunch of buddies come in to do it. Why? Because you’re not going to be willing to risk pushing off your bomber 160 3.5 to a neighbor to be killed. In areas with real hunting pressure you can’t just go kill target cull bucks at will or bring guys in to do it. It takes the perfect weather front and a food source because those bucks are nocturnal leading up to the rut then by the end of the rut are nocturnal again. Don’t believe me, check your cell cams.
You can’t kill them when they don’t show themselves during shooting hours. Your best odds are by luck during the rut or a late season cold front over standing grain. Some years we don’t get the right conditions late season to get mature culls out in front of you during shooting hours. Again, Iowa’s current buck tag allotments allow for management and culling of bucks on 99% of properties across the State. The top 1% of properties have un-pressured deer herds with mature bucks parading around food plots during shooting hours. So yea you can kill culls on un-pressured properties. However, those properties don’t move the needle for buck quality across the State. My opinion, decreasing buck tags will only intensify the high grading and competition in every neighborhood to kill the top end bucks. No culls will be taken. This will only intensify as farms continue to get broken up. This will lead to a continued decline of top end bucks. You need the ability to take out cull bucks when the opportunity presents itself on 99% of the normally pressured farms. The Amana colonies property is like a 20,000 acre one buck limit research project right here in Iowa. Some of the best habitat Iowa has to offer. Guys could kill one buck of their choice. What happened is quality went from great and continued to declined over the last 20-30 years due to high grading. I have said it many times, nobody is going to burn their only buck tag on culls. The guys managing the Amana colonies realize that and they are going back to two buck tags.
Everyone wants to blame the addition of this weapon or that weapon, trail cameras, cell cams, you name it. However, the answer is obvious. You take 400,000 deer off the Iowa landscape and there is your answer. Going from 750,000 deer to 350,000. If half those 400,000 were bucks that adds 200,000 bucks. Why would you waste time fighting for a one buck State to save 3400 deer State wide when you can fight to get the population up and add lets say 100,000 bucks. Increasing the population is the only answer that will make a difference. It will take a couple years without any widespread EHD outbreaks. Everyone needs to take a deep breath. Hold off shooting does for a couple years. Kill some culls and pass the young up and comers. It will take some time but the DNR is trying to help get the population up in the areas with low deer numbers by decreasing doe tag allocations.
I will say it again.
Managing for top end bucks starts and ends with you. That is really the only thing you can control…yourself.
So take control of yourself and quit shooting does in areas with low numbers, Control that urge to shoot great genetic two and three year olds. Shoot some cull bucks to fill your freezers.
Hope everyone gets out there and enjoys the beautiful Iowa landscape. Hope you cross paths with your target buck. Good luck!!!
Windlooker
Well-Known Member
Great comments on this topic. IMO it’s very simple:
1. Increased desire to shoot big bucks from video
and social media, nobody cared 30 years ago.
2. Breakup of big parcels to sell to NR and R for
affordability due to video exposure. Instead of
2 guys hunting a block it’s 5 or 6. NRs rarely
go home without justifying a $600 tag.
3. Insurance company and farmer pressure re car
accidents and crop damage, both embellished
imo, but they both are powerful lobbies with
deep pockets.
4. The trigger control argument is old. I use my
farm and want those invited to use it. Kill a 3
year old if desired. I’m guilty of permitting it,
so be it. The joy it gives some is why I own
property.
Change is inevitable and it’s certainly happened to deer hunting in Iowa. Like qdm said it is on the individual primarily to try and build age structure. The dnrs job is to maintain healthy herd balance, not produce trophy bucks.
1. Increased desire to shoot big bucks from video
and social media, nobody cared 30 years ago.
2. Breakup of big parcels to sell to NR and R for
affordability due to video exposure. Instead of
2 guys hunting a block it’s 5 or 6. NRs rarely
go home without justifying a $600 tag.
3. Insurance company and farmer pressure re car
accidents and crop damage, both embellished
imo, but they both are powerful lobbies with
deep pockets.
4. The trigger control argument is old. I use my
farm and want those invited to use it. Kill a 3
year old if desired. I’m guilty of permitting it,
so be it. The joy it gives some is why I own
property.
Change is inevitable and it’s certainly happened to deer hunting in Iowa. Like qdm said it is on the individual primarily to try and build age structure. The dnrs job is to maintain healthy herd balance, not produce trophy bucks.
Agree with most of this. Really well said!! Very good points.Good discussion. I think ethics or logic has nothing to do with shooting one, two or three bucks. It also has nothing to do with score of the deer you shoot or its age. That is because 1 1/2 years old can breed does just fine. You can have stable or growing populations regardless of the age class of your buck population. To imply different would mean that 50% of the of the hunters who fill their tags annually with 1 1/2 year olds are unethical or illogical. They are neither, because neither have anything to do with killing one, two or three bucks and those that do so are not doing anything wrong. The number of bucks tags doesn’t change population trends, just like a rooster pheasant he can and will breed multiple females. That is why our pheasant limit doesn’t change from three to five to one when populations swing up or down. It has no bearing whatsoever on population.
We are not a 3-5 buck state. We are a two buck state. One anysex tag for bow and one anysex tag with gun. Landowners are given an additional anysex tag because they essentially feed the deer herd. Again, 2,000 guys filled both a bow tag and a gun tag with bucks. If you count guys that bought one tag and a landowner tag that adds 1,200 to the number who killed two bucks. Then only 201 people tagged three bucks. So a total of 3,400 out of 160,000 hunters.
Here is another way to look at it. There were just over 160,000 tags sold last year. I believe around 166,000. I believe the DNR estimates approximately 70,000 bow hunters and just under 100,000 gun hunters. Let’s just say for the sake of discussion that there were only 80,000 deer hunters total and every single one of them bought a bow tag and a gun tag to total 160,000 licenses. So every deer hunter had two buck tags in their pocket last year. So last year the number of hunters that killed two bucks was 3200, the number who killed three bucks was 201. So let’s divide 3400/80,000 hunters. So that means 4.25% of hunters shot two bucks. That is less than one in twenty hunters actually took two bucks. Your dreaming if you think 1 more buck per twenty hunters will move the quality needle. Remember 50% of buck harvests are 1 1/2 year olds. That 1 1/2 year old buck more than likely has to make it through three more full seasons to get to 5 1/2 and give you that high end buck your after.
Obviously, the guys “managing” are already being selective. The guys that aren’t managing are shooting 1 1/2 year olds. The average guys that think they are managing are killing 160” three year olds and no culls. Which is why the high grading is happening and will continue. Going to a one buck State will intensify the high grading. The mid level managers are shooting older high scoring bucks typically 4 1/2 plus and are culling 3.5 year old and up lower scoring bucks. The top land managers with enough acres (the 1%) can allow the high end bucks to go past 5 1/2 with good chances they will make it and will aggressively cull low scoring bucks. The other 99% of landowners (smaller acreage) who manage can’t get high scoring deer to 5 1/2 with any consistency without neighbor cooperation.
I really don’t care about what other States around us are doing with regard to becoming a one buck State because they all have at least twice as many deer. Also, given the choice almost every serious deer hunter from those States would pick to live and hunt here in Iowa if they could. Most can’t because of work and family dynamics.
The seasons and regulation structure Iowa has had since the 1980’s has stood the test of time. We have had above average quality when compared to every other midwest State and Canada though population swings both up and down. Including now we are still where everyone wants to be. We are the top dog. It is not because we have more deer or better habitat. We have less of both compared to all other midwest States. Our success is because of our current regulation structure.
The weapons have changed. My old Bear Black Mag is a far cry from the current bows. But like Skip said 25-40 yards. When I bought my Hastings rifled slug barrel in the late 1980’s I could put every slug in a paper plate at 100 yards. Killed several bucks between 25-150 yards. Then I switched to muzzleloader in the mid 1990’s because my dad got into muzzleloading when he built a Hawkins 50 cal kit gun. Even though I had been hunting during shotgun, I usually hunted like I did with bow. I sat in a stand, on the ground or spot and stalked. Didn’t want to put up with the orange army anymore. So I bought a Remington 700 inline muzzleloader. I zeroed that at 150 yards and hunted. Again 0-200 yards the deer was in serious trouble. Even though I have never shot one over 150. Most straight wall 350, 400, and 450 are really 100-200 yard guns. Can you shoot any of the above further? Sure with enough arrows, ammo and time on the range. Most people won’t do that.
So are we really more lethal??? Our harvest numbers say no. We gradually increased harvest from the 1980’s as the population increased through the early 2000’s and now harvests have declined significantly as the population has been cut in half since 2008 levels. In the early 2000’s we harvested as many as 165,000 deer and the DNR sold as many as 240,000 licenses. Now we hover around 100,000 harvest and 160,000 licenses. Think about that. When we had the best hunting there were 60,000 more deer harvested and 80,000 more licenses issued.
I personally don’t think the average hunters effective range has really increased much with bow or gun since the mid 1990’s when the bow cams started advancing, inline muzzleloaders took off along with dedicated rifled slug guns. Again, can a guy shoot a bow 100 yards and hit a target consistently, yes maybe 1% of them, Can a guy spend 4k for a smokeless muzzleloader and shoot 400 yards, yes maybe 1% will go down that road, can a guy buy a dedicated slug gun or straight wall and shoot 300 yards, yes maybe 1% have that ability.
Has any of that caused the decline in quality? I don’t think so. Why? Because there were plenty of lethal weapons in place in the early to mid 2000’s when everyone was ecstatic about both our deer quality and population. We hunters did it to ourselves with over harvesting does and then continuing to shoot shed bucks in January. Then throw some EHD outbreaks on top of the decimated population and age structure. Thus, you have a perfect storm to decrease the top end bucks.
As far as killing bully bucks for the guys that want to manage. I will say this. If you have plenty of acreage to bring guys in to hunt your bully bucks while not putting pressure on your target bucks or up and comers. Great. Please do that because they will appreciate the opportunity to hunt managed ground. However, the reality of that for 99% of the guys managing is not likely because the odds of pushing one of your up and comers or target bucks off onto a neighbor to be killed is very likely. Skip, it is great that you offer others the opportunity to manage culls but the odds of pushing a buck off to be killed by one of your neighbors is slim at best because of the size of your farms and your neighbors all manage. Plus, your farm is not in a high pressured neighborhood. I guarantee you that 99% of most landowners don’t have that luxury.
If you’re a guy that owns an 80 and has a couple older age class low scoring bucks to cull you better do that when you get the chance. Because if you’re trying do your part to manage the herd and at the same time be a low impact hunter on a small acreage property. You are not going to pressure your property before or after your one buck tag is filled by letting a bunch of buddies come in to do it. Why? Because you’re not going to be willing to risk pushing off your bomber 160 3.5 to a neighbor to be killed. In areas with real hunting pressure you can’t just go kill target cull bucks at will or bring guys in to do it. It takes the perfect weather front and a food source because those bucks are nocturnal leading up to the rut then by the end of the rut are nocturnal again. Don’t believe me, check your cell cams.
My opinion, decreasing buck tags will only intensify the high grading and competition in every neighborhood to kill the top end bucks. No culls will be taken. This will only intensify as farms continue to get broken up. This will lead to a continued decline of top end bucks. You need the ability to take out cull bucks when the opportunity presents itself on 99% of the normally pressured farms. The Amana colonies property is like a 20,000 acre one buck limit research project right here in Iowa. Some of the best habitat Iowa has to offer. Guys could kill one buck of their choice. What happened is quality went from great and continued to declined over the last 20-30 years due to high grading. I have said it many times, nobody is going to burn their only buck tag on culls. The guys managing the Amana colonies realize that and they are going back to two buck tags.
Everyone wants to blame the addition of this weapon or that weapon, trail cameras, cell cams, you name it. However, the answer is obvious. You take 400,000 deer off the Iowa landscape and there is your answer. Going from 750,000 deer to 350,000. If half those 400,000 were bucks that adds 200,000 bucks. Why would you waste time fighting for a one buck State to save 3400 deer State wide when you can fight to get the population up and add lets say 100,000 bucks. Increasing the population is the only answer that will make a difference. It will take a couple years without any widespread EHD outbreaks. Everyone needs to take a deep breath. Hold off shooting does for a couple years. Kill some culls and pass the young up and comers. It will take some time but the DNR is trying to help get the population up in the areas with low deer numbers by decreasing doe tag allocations.
I will say it again.
Managing for top end bucks starts and ends with you. That is really the only thing you can control…yourself.
So take control of yourself and quit shooting does in areas with low numbers, Control that urge to shoot great genetic two and three year olds. Shoot some cull bucks to fill your freezers.
Hope everyone gets out there and enjoys the beautiful Iowa landscape. Hope you cross paths with your target buck. Good luck!!!
I do believe most of us across spectrum are on the same side of understanding that populations are by far and away the biggest issue.
I do think the 1 buck discussion is not the #1 thing. I don’t even want to get hung up on it but I want to clarify a few points regarding it….
it’s NOT about how many bucks are actually shot when states change from 2 to 1 buck …. It generally is around the 10-25%ish mark on 2 bucks. What happens is- guys get super picky & let younger bucks go- drastically improving age class. It also reduces the harvest on younger age classes. It alleviates access to land!!! “Maybe I don’t need to lease up 5 farms for more options” as guys tag out & don’t need to tie things up.
Indiana was a case study where they went from 2 to 1 when most weren’t shooting 2 anyways. Their hunting quality EXPLODED for EVERYONE. Like #18 in B&C to #4 in like 5-10 years (loose recollection but I’m not far off). Their access issues got major relief as well…. Like the intensity to lock things up in IN vs IL for example… IN made a brilliant choice & the adults in the room had a win for EVERYONE with that wise decision. Fixed so many other issues there too but I’ll just stop here.
Ok- I can’t emphasize this enough…. There’s huge biological, economic, practical & sustainable reasons no state or herd wants their young bucks shot each year & does not have age structure. I could write a 50 paragraph explanation here as there’s so many angles, dynamics & reasons for this….
A few: it’s biologically sound to have a diverse balanced age structure. All younger bucks doing all the breeding has countless negatives I’ll leave out here. For things like population stability, disease, dominance, health of herd, etc - u need layers of different ages & for countless reasons ill leave out: wiping all the bucks out that are say 2-3 (when bucks can live to 4-10 years old had they not been wiped out) will cause a spiral of problems when u have only one very young age class…..
I’ll get off the biology & get to the practicality & reality of what happens in these vast areas of our country this takes place… Those scenarios the ratios get way out of whack. Piles of does & fewer very young bucks. Overpopulation takes place of does & everyone picks off all the bucks at young age- this is the model of most the country. Then what Happens?? Guys lock up land, hunting quality & balance suck & guys start quitting hunting. It’s far more complex but this is exactly what’s Happening all over. Things become so out of whack that it ruins the herd & balance…. Guys panic, lock up land & hunters quit in droves.
Let me make one very long story short…. Meeting with DNR’s or legislators in many Midwest states or just stating the FACTS… the dnr is not here just to manage for deer #’s. Far from it. They are tasked in “in their constitution of duties” are tasked with creating a robust & sustainable population of wildlife that’s balanced, healthy & improving for the future. Their job is to keep the quality sound so hunters or fishermen don’t quit. They are tasked with keeping them to keep tag sales coming in and the $ flowing In the hunting economy. Quality & management of resource (balance) is very much a fundamental core of their task. Some states fail at this or get rolled over by Farm bureau - what’s the result? The hunters, economy, resource & that balance all lose if it’s too out of whack.
You can manage pheasants by shooting most the males each year perhaps. Deer & older animals are absolutely not the same management method. Same with fish…. Why we say “they have to be 12”” or “in this slot”. We must have balance. Iowa does. It’s hurting but it does. If we lose this balance- we’re toast. Screwed. We are not going to lose it. That’s where we agree. This is positive folks…. We have these debates & discussions & it makes us stronger We will never stop fighting to make sure this state isnt ruined like most others. The core fundamentals on what needs to happen- most of us really do agree. & to summarize IMO it’s this: 1) no more changes for the worst…. No more seasons, weapons, insane tag allocations, etc. 2) let the populations improve in the regions that are hurting. That’s it folks. You let those 2 things happen & iowa will stay great. It’s great to discuss & debate the rest & there’s some tweaks and course corrections we need. If we address those 2 things & work on the tweaks in regs here & there…. We in good shape overall.
Agree here and with qdm. Like it or not this is what we have and sorry to throw in the towel on change but this where we are. Outside of increasing herd size substantially there isn’t much that can be done. Habitat loss and the greed/desire of horn porn will not change. I think there is limited chance the DNR allows the population to get back to the level it was in the hay day with farm and insurance lobby against it. And even if the DNR did head that direction EHD is a challenge of its own. Evidently there are still plenty of NR interested in coming to Iowa because some zones that took 1-2 PP 20 years ago for bow now take 4-6. But the numbers just don’t support switching to one buck will make a noticeable impact and may actually hurt in the long run with more high grading.
Skip I just don’t know how access gets better with switching to a one buck state. The numbers show that only 3400 people shoot multiple bucks. As mentioned there are multiple NR landowners around me that don’t allow access while getting a tag every 4-6 years So residents all the sudden gonna open the gates to access once they fill their one buck tag. I’d be shocked if that was the case. AND if switching to one buck DID have a positive impact to mature high scoring deer for Iowa the great land grab would only increase which would further decrease access.