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going to get a new muzzleloader

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carvingfarmer

New Member
Hello: I just sold a bit of last years corn, because it is a good price I am going to buy myself a present, a new muzzleloader. I have an older CVA that is very basic and was cheap, halfway decent scope. I am thinking of getting a CVA accura V2 and nikon scope. The research I have done indicates that the V2 is among the best for the money or at least it was. Is that still the conventional wisdom? Also debating about getting the built in scope mount, I am thinking I will not get it, any ideas on that? Thanks in advance Jared
 
I love my Accura V2. I wouldn't trade it for anything else out there right now. 200 yard groups are great!!
 
I have a CVA Accura and I love it so much I am going to buy the V2 this fall (if I can convince my wife! )
 
If you are certain your going to put a scope on it. You might as well buy it with the rings/base attached. It's the same money as with iron sights. Saves you 30-40 bucks...

I sell a lot of the Accura V2's and everybody loves them. Very good gun for the money...
 
I would go Z5 & this is why

I would get a Thompson Center Omega z5 cost is about the same as cva accura V2. Here is why I would choose it over the Accura V2

1 The Z5 action is not a break action meaning the barrel is not let down like a single shot shotgun or held to the rest of the gun by a hinge pin. Why might this be good ? The barrel has less chance of point of impact change meaning the barrel won't shift from side to side or up & down under recoil at lock up when fired or over time. The z5 has a drop down kind of action that is moved down by a down forward moment of the trigger guard. This exposes the breech plug that is screwed into the barrel & gives ample room to place primer. Seeing the barrel is in a fixed position all the time & free floated in the stock it leads to far more accuracy. This kind of lockup is very tight & has no blow back at all also impervious to weather.

2 The z5 Barrel is longer Adding more FPS to any sabot-bullet combo shot in it about 25 feet per second to be spot on. The accura v2 only has a 27" barrel compaired to z5 28".

3 The z5 has Quick Load Accurizer™ Muzzle System meaning the last inch of extra barrel length has no rifling. So you would not need a quick or short starter for your sabot-bullet combo. Keep in mind even tho it has no rifling in that last inch of extra barrel it still adds the extra FPS. Also adds to accuracy in my opinion due to not canting or cocking the bullet when loading it like one would do using a short starter in a gun without a false muzzle.

4 The Omega z5 is based on the original Omega I own one same barrels & breech plug for both guns has never had ignition trouble with breech plug design.

5 The Original Omega was the test gun for the best black powder sub know to man. Blackhorn 209 if The omega ever failed to fire it I would call it user error for using non magnum 209 primers. Example the special muzzleloader primers.

6 Thompson center guns are all american made every part made & assembled here in the good Ol usa with top grade us materials. Cva on the other hand Imports. You know that 416 Stainless Steel barrel on the accura v2. Well that's a steel grade but not the same as usa grade 416. It is the 416 imported grade if graded by the usa it would be much lower on the scale. However it can be sold here & advertised as 416 grade due to it's not a lie. If they said usa grade 416 well that's not legal. Muzzleloaders are not held to safety standards & test like SAAMI centerfire standards that's how they sell it legally. Only one muzzleloader is held to the test that's the savage 10ml & it's the only true smokeless boom stick around that has been. I would guess if it was tested it would barely make the cut above the safe to shoot pressure mark.

7 Thompson center & many other independent research places that do this kind of stuff have tested T/C muzzleloaders this info is public knowledge & can be found with a few clicks. PSI charts & so on for makes & models. I cant seem to find this for CVA.


8 Cva customer service sux just call em & ask a few complex questions you know the answer to see the feed back you get. You will be transfered many times & still get no quality answer to your question. Call TC & they will transfer you right to a engineer with more information then you could understand well that was the case for me. I spent hours after researching if he was truthful in his answers & he was good & bad not the sales pitch type stuff.


9 Thompson center barrels are the tightest in the industry & very the least from gun to gun of any MFG.


Only down fall I can think of is lack of the breech plug being able to be twisted out by hand so easy like the accura v2. However it has a tool & very easy to remove at the end of season with ample room to push everything out the back if you want or need to.

Keep in mind this is just my opinion that is all. I never said CVA suck or are going to blowup on you if you come to that assumption that is what it is your assumption. I just simply brought some facts to the table to help with your decision. Hope this helps you & happy hunting:D If you would like to see my omega & research on black powder feel free to have a look. My omega is the original not the z5 but call customer service the engineers at t/c will tell you how they might differ it's not by much. http://www.youtube.com/user/MidwestProwler/videos
 
I looked at the omegas too as Thompson does make good guns. This is what sold me on the V2 versus the omega.

#1 the adjustable trigger. Man it is crisp and sweet.

#2 the stock. I liked the rubber feel of the V2 versus a standard plastic stock that feels cheap. Maybe the omega has the rubber feel to them on different models than I had handled.

#3 The breechplug. I will admit you cannot shoot the standard breech plug with BH209 and that you need to buy the specialty plug however I have shot it over 30 times without swabbing once with no breech plug grease and it comes out with your fingers. That is impressive.

#4 The Bergara Barrel. From everything I have read it is the best of the best. I believe it is true SS. All the others are regular steel with a nickel / stainless coating. The thompsons do have the weathershield. I don't know why but the looks of the weathershield just doesn't do it for me. I like the looks of the fluted barrel versus a standard barrel.

#5. Looks and feel. For me, the V2 just fit me better than the other guns. I love the thumbhole version.

#6 The hammer. All my buddies that have Omegas do not like the hammer in the winter with gloves. It looks small with not a lot to hold on to.

#7 The last inch on the V2 has no rifling either. Very easy to guide a bullet down the barrel.

#8. Absolutely no blowback. After 30 shots with no cleaning I could wipe off where the primer goes in and it was clean as a whistle. I am sure Thompson has this too.

#9 This wasn't until after I bought it but it truly is the most accurate muzzleloader I have ever shot. I will however admit the only guns I have shot previously is my Knight Wolvering, my Knight Disc Extreme and a Remington 700. None of these guns were great at 200 yards. Maybe I never found the right bullet / powder combo for them.

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No gun is perfect. Here are the two things I do not like about the V2

#1. I like the quake sling but I do not like the plastic connectors on it. I tried putting a different sling on the gun but the front connector is too wide for a standard steel sling. I need to find a wider version maybe.

#2 I don't really like the ramrod. The Thompson ramrods are awesome for sure. That would be the only win for Thompson just from my perspective when comparing guns.

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There is no right or wrong answer. They both will shoot and kill deer just fine. If you would of told me 5 years ago I would be shooting a CVA today I would of bet the farm there wasn't a Chance in H E double hockey sticks that I would shoot one. The Accura V2 and Apex are flat out different to me and ahead of the game. Everyone always mentions that your CVA will blow up. That was what back in 95 or 96 when they had a recall, admitted to the fact they screwed up and have not had any issues since. It is time to move on.

Here is the first 200 yard 3 shot group I ever shot with the gun shooting 120 grains of BH209 and a Barnes 250grain TMZ with a winchester primer. I was shooting off a sandbag so the rest wasn't the best. Works for me.

Choose whatever you like, that is the beauty of competition. Some awesome guns being produced these days!!
982-muzz_group.jpg
 
Check both the TC and the CVA out, and which ever one FEELS RIGHT when you shoulder it, and it feels comfortable to you, it will be the one you will be happy with. They are both great guns
 
Having just gone through this I'd approach it like buying a bow. Go to a shop and hold several differernt guns. I was convinced we were going to buy a CVA for my son until he picked up a Traditions. Their thumbhole stocks just plain feel better and more solid in my hands and his.

All the manufacturers at that level make a nice gun. Congrats on your commodity sale!
 
You are getting good info here & truthful information. I will agree the synthetic stock on the z5 feels cheap it can be had in t-hole version. I would personally go with the laminated t-hole version of the z5.

A few things I wanted to add TC z5 comes with a fully transferable lifetime warranty. CVA comes with lifetime but not transferable. That speaks to me gives one of them a higher resale value & shows they stand behind what was produced forever.

I would also like to point out CVA is a "import only" entity in the United States.
It is owned by BPI a spanish gun maker. Quote from CVA site All of our guns are designed and assembled in our state-of-the art production facility located in the little town of Bergara in northern Spain. Quote manufactured on-site or sourced from other manufacturers (I hope not china). Quote is produced under strict ISO-9001 quality standards. Let me hit on this once more ISO = International Organization of Standardization. Not USA standards of quality material. ISO must read http://www.bizmanualz.com/blog/iso-quality-standards.html Quote from this site Yes, this is easier said then done. Most people think that conformance to ISO 9000 is quality. The reality is that conformance to ISO 9000 says your company is ready to deliver quality. Now you have to improve and actually do it. You have to strive for continuous improvement. One last thing to consider a new law enacted within the last few years changed the labeling of made in U.S.A ask Weber grill co about this
http://www.homechannelnews.com/article/weber-deals-made-usa-fallout Why do I care if it's stamped Made in U.S.A ? By law now if stamped Made in U.S.A it is made with higher quality U.S. material not the international standard for quality & assembled here to Quality standards.

I do give CVA props for correcting the defective guns of past years with a voluntary recall. However it took many years to get them to do it & many court cases. I would think that's why they have to conform to the ISO standards today for failing to in the past. Keep in mind this is just the international standards for quality big difference from us steel quality standards. As for weather shield it is a option on the z5 steel it is just a coating steel quality remains the same quality as defined by us steel standards. You can read about it here http://www.tcarms.com/technology/ In many cases stainless steel from other parts of the world won't hold up to blued steel barrels made in usa by usa qualty standards.:way:
 
I agree with the other posters about shouldering a few different guns. It can make a world of difference in accuracy. So can this :drink1: go with what feels right. If it's not right in the shoulder & feel you may be doing more of this :drink2: & that won't help accuracy at all lol I have the omega not the z5 it's just right for me. As far as nickel plated if T/C arms list it as stainless steel barrel not finish it would have to be usa grade 416 type stainless steel due to being made in usa. If its normal steel such as ASA 4140 or higher grade us steel used for gun manufacture in usa that's what it is. It would say nickel or ss finish if plated. You could also tell by color on normal steel if plated. Think about it this way silverware made in U.S.A today is required to state if it's plated or not. Be it nickel or ss coating or in Thompson center arms co case weather-shielded barrel is making the statement that it is usa steel due to being made in usa. With a special coating or finish called weather shield.

This could explain steel used to make guns far better then I can have a look in your research http://www.border-barrels.com/articles/bmart.htm
 
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specialty breech plug?

I have read of some difficulties using the blackhorn powder. I understood that CVA changed the plug to make it work with the blackhorn. Is this true? If not where can I get a "specialty plug" that will work with the blackhorn? Thanks in advance Jared
 
I have a cva apex with nikon omega scope 250 grain hornady slick loads,150grains 777.Most accurate gun I have ever owned.Accura will give you the same results.
 
carvingfarmer said:
I have read of some difficulties using the blackhorn powder. I understood that CVA changed the plug to make it work with the blackhorn. Is this true? If not where can I get a "specialty plug" that will work with the blackhorn? Thanks in advance Jared
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The plugs that come with them are designed for pellets. The blackhorn 209 plug is available from their website or from western powders who makes BH209. They are the ones that actually designed the breechplug specifically for CVA for their powder. CVA had no interest in it since they are in bed with white hots. Due to customer demand though they now offer the breechplug. It is like $20 and works like a champ.
 
Just to throw out another option I just bought a new Savage 10ML-II. Great gun with an adjustable accutrigger a d best of all you can shoot smokeless powder. No more swabbing between shots or having to clean your gun right away after getting home from a long day in the field.

Haven't worked up a load yet as I'm waiting for cooler weather but it should send a 300 gr bullet downrange at 2500fps+ with a 250yd mpbr.
 
Monsterbuck said:
Haven't worked up a load yet as I'm waiting for cooler weather but it should send a 300 gr bullet downrange at 2500fps+ with a 250yd mpbr.
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I own two Savage ML10II's.

I think the recoil of the load you propose is going to get your attention. ;)
 
JNRBRONC said:
I own two Savage ML10II's.

I think the recoil of the load you propose is going to get your attention. ;)
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You may be right. I think my 11-87 with 3" deer slugs kicks like a mule though so hopefully it's not a lot worse.

What loads do you use in yours?
 
Monsterbuck said:
You may be right. I think my 11-87 with 3" deer slugs kicks like a mule though so hopefully it's not a lot worse.

What loads do you use in yours?
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Probably true on the 3" shotgun kicking hard as I shoot 2 3/4 inch Winchester Supremes' out of an 870. Getting a 385 grain projectile up to 2100 fps generates stout recoil.

I've got an accurate mild load set up: 42.5 grains of SR4759 behind a 250 grain XTP. I'm working up a flatter load with 60 grains of VV120 behind a 300 grains Barnes Original.
 
JNRBRONC said:
Probably true on the 3" shotgun kicking hard as I shoot 2 3/4 inch Winchester Supremes' out of an 870. Getting a 385 grain projectile up to 2100 fps generates stout recoil.
I've got an accurate mild load set up: 42.5 grains of SR4759 behind a 250 grain XTP. I'm working up a flatter load with 60 grains of VV120 behind a 300 grains Barnes Original.
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VV120 is hard to find. I'm going to start out wth H4198. Got some Barnes Originals and Expander MZ and some Hornady FTX all in 300gr to try. Hopefully I'll find a load that shoots well.
 
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