Growing more Top Genetic Mature Bucks on your farm

[Sligh1]

Ok, so most the farms I hunt are full of 8 pointers that max at 140. The 10's also max around 150-155. That's the MAJORITY of the deer. Those are 5+ year old bucks.
Let's be CLEAR, I am not trying to change the gene composition of the area deer heard BUT simply take out inferior bucks so there's more room for me to keep that freak 157" 3.5 year old with 13 points alive. My goal is to have the herd contain several TOP CLASS GENETIC MATURE BUCKS. Here's my strategy BUT I want to know what YOU suggest....

1) I pick every 2, 3, and 4 year old with exceptional genetics and I make ANYONE on my place very aware of the deer. I also make them aware that when the 3.5 160" turns into a 180" 4 year old, they MUST hold out, MUST pass that deer until he's 5.5 and what we personally feel as mature.

2)I've done everything in regards to nutrition known to man to put on antler growth.... 1) alfalfa & clover plots dot the farm. 2)late season standing corn and beans keep the deer's stress far lower during winter months 3) Turnips, winter rye, peas. **4) I love this one, i put 6-7 mineral licks of Phos-8 beef mineral (After my non-scientific test on deer preference AND what constitutes the best nutrition)- $18 per 50 lbs bag. I put mineral out in February. It also helps with parasite protection, skeletal make-up (during tough times, deer will take OUT from that, thus hurting next antler growing season) & adding to building blocks of antlers.

3) I have at least 40 different bedding areas on farms in strategic areas. MOST are hinge cutted areas or super thick TSI areas. I space these out SO 2 bucks aren't getting too close. I also have the switchgrass bedding spread way out all over farm for lots of big boys to be able to be all over the place.

4) Last, when I see a deer that's 140 for example and he's 5.5 years old, he gets a lead sandwich or an arrow from above. I'm doing this to make room for the other younger or other aggressive bucks that wouldn't have tolerated each other. My goal on my farm is to take 1-2 top notch genetic masterpieces off my place AND take 3-5 poor genetics bucks that are often bullies off the place (kids get to kill them, party hunting, etc). In either case, the deer are mature BUT we are pushing to let the high genetic bucks live on. til they really reach their potential.

5) we shoot a very strategic amount of does. Sometimes it's a lot, sometimes very few. don't just shoot for shootings sake. We also do most the DOE shooting LATE- after the rut SO the big boys have plenty to hang around for. If I'm in an area with too few #'s, I will NEVER shoot a doe. If it's HIGH #'s but the ratio seems about right, I usually will only take a few at most or many none.

This is my project now- turn a mediocre farm (full of stubby 8's) I have now into a giant creating factory. What else do I need to be doing and what are your thoughts? Any help, experience or guidance appreciated!

***OH- controversial issue here, some of the big dudes out there are giving deer heavy pellet implements to increase growth. Nutritious, not outrageous cost & there's several claims it will ad 8-15" per year. What do you think: too much OR is this another tactic we have from technology to better our herd????

 

[hillrunner]

Honestly, it all sounds like a bit much to me . I prefer to take what mother nature gives me, those 140 " 8s are a trophy in my book. I always thought it was more about finding and killing a mature buck, then trying grow super bucks. If this is what brings you joy in the deer woods, I wish you luck.

 

[ReinertsonTaxidermy]

Sounds like you are driving yourself and your pocketbook crazy trying to play God. There are guys who kill mature big racked deer and put way less thought and effort in. Why? Because they hunt where really big bucks live. There will always be farms where nothing is done to help the deer herd and always have huge bucks. Maybe you should just buy a farm with better genetics, or just enjoy what you have.

 

[SaskGuy]

OH- controversial issue here, some of the big dudes out there are giving deer heavy pellet implements to increase growth. Nutritious, not outrageous cost & there's several claims it will ad 8-15" per year. What do you think: too much OR is this another tactic we have from technology to better our herd????

If this is indeed true then the record books should be astericked from here on out.............as a whole we've gone bonkers.

I gotta go with the previous 2 replies on this one Skip, it's obvious as heck you're passionate as all heck about this topic but you're driving yourself crazy worrying about things that in the grand scheme of life do not matter in the least.

 

[revup]

Sounds like a text book management stratagy to me. :way:

I just have one question that goes along with managing the doe population.
What if you shoot a doe, or multiple does, that were breed by one of the big boys?
That's one less possibility of an up and coming bruiser. Right?
So what is a hunter to do??
Do you leave the does alone for 3-4 years, hoping that the big horn gene spreads? Then do you have a doe slaughter, to bring the ratios back in order?

 

[Iowa1]

Sounds like a textbook management strategy that will have a positive effect over the long haul... and I do mean long. You did not mention how many acres you have, and a lot of your success is going to be related to what is taking place on the adjacent properties. You can do everything you can, but you have to take dispersal of young bucks into account. A lot of those great 1.5's and 2.5's are going to leave and be replaced with lower quality genetics, so this is a long process. You should see some results in 3-5 years, but it will take a lot longer than that to make them permanent, and the adjacent landowners are going to have a lot to do with your success. Even those 5-10 miles away, because dispersal of bucks from other areas that far and farther are going to effect your genetics.

 

[cedar creek]

Sounds like you are driving yourself and your pocketbook crazy trying to play God. There are guys who kill mature big racked deer and put way less thought and effort in. Why? Because they hunt where really big bucks live. There will always be farms where nothing is done to help the deer herd and always have huge bucks. Maybe you should just buy a farm with better genetics, or just enjoy what you have.

breiner11 has pretty much summed it up in a nutshell. If you don't have the genetics of a boone & crocket buck on your land, you'll never create it. If you are trying to control so much land that you don't know if trophy potential is there; there is very little you can do besides narrowing down where this potential trophy lives. My land supports some superior bucks through much of the summer months. Mostly because of good genetics, plenty of good cover, and food plots. Many years these bucks mysteriously disappear around the first week of Sept. with little or no chance of hunting them. It becomes frustrating, but there is always the chance one of these trophies will return during the rut. I have harvested some great bucks off my land, but i've seen many trophies that have just vanished into thin air.

 

[Sligh1]

Sounds like you are driving yourself and your pocketbook crazy trying to play God.

See, that's where I need to clarify and where we DIFFER!!!..... I LOVE DOING THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am NOT driving myself crazy. I want to take my GOD GIVEN ABILITIES on biology, management, HARD WORK, planting & cultivating God's earth/soil/seeds & I want to make a piece of land the BEST IT CAN BE.
I am not ok with having a mediocre farm that the COWS DESTROY, the invasive tree species take over, the oak composition die out. Or a farm where the deer are starving, it's over its carrying capacity, the ratio is as UN-NATURAL as it can get AND the young bucks are being killed by people in droves. That's what really stresses me out and drives me nuts. *It also drives me nuts seeing the 2.5 year olds with top genetics get slain each year, OUCH, that does stress me out. Others have a right to do it BUT it does bother me.

I likely wouldn't do the deer pellets, I was just curious what you thought. The rest is doing what I LOVE to do & I will be leaving my farm far better than when I found it. Every farm I've been on was SO UN-NATURAL and poor quality from the PAST OWNER- the oaks were destroyed through harvest & non-replanting, full of thorn trees, cows destroyed the timber and native grasses, no natives period, the deer ratio was out of whack, the amount of mature bucks was tiny, the deer got some much human pressure it was sad, etc, etc, etc.
This is NOT driving me crazy, I LOVE THIS!!!

I just have one question that goes along with managing the doe population.
What if you shoot a doe, or multiple does, that were breed by one of the big boys?
That's one less possibility of an up and coming bruiser. Right?

Yep- nothing I can do about this, nor can anyone. Again, I'm also not trying to change the gene pool, I simply target old bucks with poor genetics and shoot them - partly because that's a successful hunt to me & it allows a 3.5 year old with stellar genetics more room to stick around my place. Yes, some younger bucks will leave. I've had, I'D GUESS.... 90% of the 3.5 year olds stay on my place and several I feel don't ever leave the place (I could be wrong but I don't think so). If I've passed them, they make it to the next year and are around as a 4.5 year old, my experience has been ABOUT 90%.

Read my above post too- really doesn't have anything to do with worrying, I love this stuff, this is a challenge and at the end of the day I want my land to be far far far far better than how I found it. I just sold my 315 - you can see the stuff I did on that at www.thedeerhunt.com Now I have to start from scratch!!!

breiner11 has pretty much summed it up in a nutshell. If you don't have the genetics of a boone & crocket buck on your land, you'll never create it. If you are trying to control so much land that you don't know if trophy potential is there; there is very little you can do besides narrowing down where this potential trophy lives. My land supports some superior bucks through much of the summer months. Mostly because of good genetics, plenty of good cover, and food plots. Many years these bucks mysteriously disappear around the first week of Sept. with little or no chance of hunting them. It becomes frustrating, but there is always the chance one of these trophies will return during the rut. I have harvested some great bucks off my land, but i've seen many trophies that have just vanished into thin air.

Every township in IOWA has a top genetic buck. Every area there's poor genetics mixed with good ones. Some of them it's 1 in 10 and some it's 1 in 50. If you pick that young buck and pass him & take out the worst of the genetic bucks, eventually you can hope to have the young top genetic buck around (not trying to change the gene pool).
Everyone on here "plays God" if that's what you want to call it. Everyone passes 1.5 year old bucks in hopes for a bigger deer OR is out for meat and targets FEMALE deer - letting the shed bucks and button bucks go. Some folks specifically target high numbers of does to reduce the population. If that's what you call it, most or all of the guys on here are "playing god". What I do is slightly different, I do all those things BUT I purposely let the young good genetic bucks live when they walk by my stand and I purposely shoot the fully mature poor genetic bucks (it's fun & great to shoot a mature buck!). I pass shed bucks, button bucks & shoot the necessary amount of does. The DNR tries to play God on a county-wide level, I'm doing it on my farm only.
To keep the deer on my place, I offer them all the cover, food, bedding areas, safety areas, low pressure and proper habitat and carrying capacity needs. Those are my abilities and I feel good about transforming the land to be the best it can be.

 

[DWilk]

See, that's where I need to clarify and where we DIFFER!!!..... I LOVE DOING THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am NOT driving myself crazy. I want to take my GOD GIVEN ABILITIES on biology, management, HARD WORK, planting & cultivating God's earth/soil/seeds & I want to make a piece of land the BEST IT CAN BE.
I am not ok with having a mediocre farm that the COWS DESTROY, the invasive tree species take over, the oak composition die out. Or a farm where the deer are starving, it's over its carrying capacity, the ratio is as UN-NATURAL as it can get AND the young bucks are being killed by people in droves. That's what really stresses me out and drives me nuts.

I likely wouldn't do the deer pellets, I was just curious what you thought. The rest is doing what I LOVE to do & I will be leaving my farm far better than when I found it. Every farm I've been on was SO UN-NATURAL and poor quality from the PAST OWNER- the oaks were destroyed through harvest & non-replanting, full of thorn trees, cows destroyed the timber and native grasses, no natives period, the deer ratio was out of whack, the amount of mature bucks was tiny, the deer got some much human pressure it was sad, etc, etc, etc.
This is NOT driving me crazy, I LOVE THIS!!!

:way: I think you hit true deer management on the head... combining passionate habitat management with trophy management. I've never faulted anyone for trophy management if they were implementing it as a factor of overall habitat management.... they can go hand-in-hand.

 

[DE2IA]

Your plan sounds great......as long as you are still having fun. I have to admit that I have almost as much fun trying to improve my land as I do hunting. I read all of Doubletree's posts and get excited about trying different things on my farm....and it brings great enjoyment doing the work. Everytime I am on my place, whether hunting or doing improvement work, I am having fun and it is a great stress reliever.
I hope that is the case for you and you are not creating more stress worrying about all of that stuff. As long as you are having fun, I say go for it....enjoy yourself. Thats what it is all about.
I don't agree with the people who are putting out growth pellets to grow bigger bucks. Just doesn't seem natural to me. Creating food plots is one thing, but that just seems different. Doesn't mean its wrong, just my opinion. We each have to decide how we enjoy the sport.
I am also curious about how big your place is. That along with what your neighbors are doing obviously makes a big difference. Although, I wouldn't let that be the deciding factor. Just because your neighbors don't practice QDM doesn't mean that you shouldn't. Every small buck that is shot is one less monster that you may see! Good luck with your efforts...hope you see a harvest shot of you and the monster you are looking for!!

 

[ReinertsonTaxidermy]

I just sold my 315 - you can see the stuff I did on that at www.thedeerhunt.com Now I have to start from scratch!!!

My question to you is this. Did you sell the place to be closer to home or did you sell it because you couldn't grow or keep the mature bucks you wanted there? I know you did a ton of work there and my gut says if you killed the big rack 6 year olds you would have never dreamed of selling it even if it was 10 hours away. I could be wrong though so don't take offense. I am in the market to buy 160 or less as soon as I find the place I want. What I am seeing is more and more "pimped out" farms like your 315 that people want 500-1000 more an acre than the comparables in the area. In Davis county land is going for 15-1800 an acre, but some guys want 2500 because they put some trees and plots in. If those trees and plots helped them shoot the deer they dreamed of when they were doing this work, the land wouldn't be for sale!

Unless you own a whole section or more it is impossible to control these things. Look at Mickey Hellickson and his mega-lease. They use pellets, plots, the whole 9 yards. For all the work and money they put in, they don't kill a pile of the hog bucks. Maybe a couple a year, but that's over 3000 acres.

 

[dtk913]

If you enjoy the work and have the time and available funds to do it, I say have at it. I share your passion, and have the farm to do it on, but not the time or probably the money. So for now I am willing to do what I can and get myself in the right place at the right time.

Good luck!! I would love to see some pictures of your Freak Buck when you get him down.

I am also going to PM you about a great management "tool" you will really like.

Dan

 

[Sligh1]

My question to you is this. Did you sell the place to be closer to home or did you sell it because you couldn't grow or keep the mature bucks you wanted there? I know you did a ton of work there and my gut says if you killed the big rack 6 year olds you would have never dreamed of selling it even if it was 10 hours away. I could be wrong though so don't take offense. I am in the market to buy 160 or less as soon as I find the place I want. What I am seeing is more and more "pimped out" farms like your 315 that people want 500-1000 more an acre than the comparables in the area. In Davis county land is going for 15-1800 an acre, but some guys want 2500 because they put some trees and plots in. If those trees and plots helped them shoot the deer they dreamed of when they were doing this work, the land wouldn't be for sale!

Unless you own a whole section or more it is impossible to control these things. Look at Mickey Hellickson and his mega-lease. They use pellets, plots, the whole 9 yards. For all the work and money they put in, they don't kill a pile of the hog bucks. Maybe a couple a year, but that's over 3000 acres.

I sold it because it was 2.25 hours from my home. I think in 2 seconds you'll see lots of mature & good genetic bucks we've taken off the place, deer I am DREAMING on growing on my new farm. I've only been able to manage 315 acres for 2 years because I started out with it being a 128 7 years ago. For owning a 128 acre parcel over 7 years and just adding on the rest, I truly feel we created a success story in management. I LOVED that farm BUT life can throw curve balls- like moving further away, getting married and having a baby.
You get what you pay for with land. I'm not talking about being "pimped out" here either. We have a crazy tillable market going on right now. I had 120 acres of 87 CSR tillable that was fetching 5-7k an acre. I sold it all together with the rest being "pimped out". It was the best farm I've ever hunted in my life. I am doing my darndest to duplicate that with my next piece. In the end, the land I own will be 1000x better than when I found it- that's in regards to hunting, biology, waterfowl, pheasants, trees, native grasses, cover, bedding areas, natural browse, diversity, pressure, deer management, herd composition, etc, etc. I will benefit things that won't even benefit me (like planting white oaks which will be around in 100 years) or improving duck habitat when I don't duck hunt.

QUESTION for those who may have a different view on selectively harvesting particular deer (which is totally cool you have your differing opinion)..........
You're sitting on a standing bean field, a group of bucks walks out: a 2.5 year old that's 12 point 142" deer, a 3.5 year old that's an 8 point 110", a 3.5 year old that's 164" and has 14 points and a drop, a 4.5 year old that's 160" as a clean wide 10, a 5.5 year old 158" 9 point, a 160" 5.5 year old 8 point and a 6.5 year old 145" 8 point. WHICH DEER DO YOU SHOOT AND WHY?



****In answer to other thoughts/questions: yes, I do enjoy this, more than that, I LOVE doing this!!!!!!! Also, these projects are VERY LOW COST, seed is usually free, there's cost-share for all the projects, different places help out with $ for food plots (since seed is free- fertilizer & herbicide costs). I'm so happy to be able to do these things.

OK- the SIZE of my farm. I sold my 315 and all I know is it will be bigger since ground by me is actually some of the lowest price in the state. VS eastern IA, N IA, NE IA, NC IA, etc. I got lucky that I can buy more ground here for less $.

 

[bigbuckhunter88]

I shoot the 145" 6.5 year old 8. Reason being if you're trying to manage your herd for the best genetics, I don't think you want that many 8 point genetics in the herd, especially that are maxing out at 145. We have been managing too, but I am a firm believer if we are going to harvest does, we do it in early october. I hate the thought of killing a doe that has been bred by one of the monarchs in the areas. Just think how many does have been killed with potential 180's in their stomach

 

[sethgade280]

I agree with shooting does to keep the ratio in check. I don't agree with shooting them late. Like others said, those does could be carrying the best genetic buck on your farm's kid. Shooting old mature does that have older genes would be best too. imo.

One question I have is what doe it matter if the buck in 4 yrs old and is 180 if you shot him. His genes are the same as when he was a nubby. Or are you just wanting to get him to get higher score?? I guess a 180 would go down in my crosshairs or pin in a heart beat.

Nothing wrong with improving your hunting potential though. I do it and I am even drive my wife nuts with everything I do or talk about. It is life for me.

 

[Sligh1]

I

One question I have is what doe it matter if the buck in 4 yrs old and is 180 if you shot him. His genes are the same as when he was a nubby. Or are you just wanting to get him to get higher score?? I guess a 180 would go down in my crosshairs or pin in a heart beat..

Genes don't change with age. You are correct, that 4.5 year old 180 will have the same genes at 5.5 as he did at 1.5. I am NOT trying to change the genetic make-up of the herd either. I pass the 4.5 year old 180" because I want him to be fully mature and I want him to see his potential IF he's allowed to reach a mature age. I'm NOT knocking others for shooting him, don't mis-understand. I personally want to only shoot 5.5 and older deer and it's my opinion of when most bucks are at their potential (yes, sometimes 6.5 - 8.5) and are really MATURE bucks. I've had great success with passing any 4.5 year old buck in hopes that he makes it & seeing him the next year- it's the VAST majority. But, those are my goals and what I enjoy, I'm not saying others have to, not at all (and I don't think anyone takes it that way). This is what makes me happy, challenged and what is enjoyable about my hunting experience. I like hearing thoughts and opinions from like-minded hunters OR even folks who disagree- it's all good!

 

[hillrunner]

QUESTION for those who may have a different view on selectively harvesting particular deer (which is totally cool you have your differing opinion)..........
You're sitting on a standing bean field, a group of bucks walks out: a 2.5 year old that's 12 point 142" deer, a 3.5 year old that's an 8 point 110", a 3.5 year old that's 164" and has 14 points and a drop, a 4.5 year old that's 160" as a clean wide 10, a 5.5 year old 158" 9 point, a 160" 5.5 year old 8 point and a 6.5 year old 145" 8 point. WHICH DEER DO YOU SHOOT AND WHY?

Since I have obviously died and gone to heaven, I am first going to check if it is ok to shoot the deer . I don't want to be kicked out on my first day.

 

[Sligh1]

Since I have obviously died and gone to heaven, I am first going to check if it is ok to shoot the deer . I don't want to be kicked out on my first day.

:way:that's funny right there!

 

[sethgade280]

Thats what I fig'rd you were talking about with the 180inch. You have shot some dandies man. And your hard work is paying off. I wish I had more time to do more on my land. good luck skip

 

[Iowa1]

Help me understand this: You don't want to shoot a bred doe because she could be potentially carrying the fawn of one of your top end bucks so you will shoot her in October instead. Seems to me she could be potentially the dam to one of your top end bucks in October too. ANd when she is bred, she is potentailly carrying the genes of one of your scrub bucks.

How does this make sense? I guess I am not following your resasoning.