A mature dominate buck is going to breed a certain number of does. If you kill your does before the breeding begins, all of his offspring will be born the following spring. If you kill does after breeding, you may kill off some of his offspring. This theory works assuming in nature that the highest scoring buck is the more dominate, which is true most of the time.
A mature dominate buck is going to breed a certain number of does. If you kill your does before the breeding begins, all of his offspring will be born the following spring. If you kill does after breeding, you may kill off some of his offspring. This theory works assuming in nature that the highest scoring buck is the more dominate, which is true most of the time.
In theory that may be true but in practicality it almost never happens. Seems like most studies would contradict that.
Even if that were true, what difference does it make if you kill the doe in October, or December? You cannot tell the difference in potential between the ones who are GOING to carry the right genes and the ones who ARE carrying the right genes.
Plus, the does actually have more to do with the antler genetics that the bucks do. You can't tell in October which does were sired by which bucks, which is the most important factor here anyway.
You're right, you can't tell what does are bred by what bucks, but statistically it makes more sense to kill them before the breeding season and allow the dominate bucks (higher scoring in theory) breed a higher percentage of the does. This also helps shorten the rut by allowing a higher percentage of the does to be bred on the first cycle. This minimizes late birth fawns that have smaller racks due to their age, not genetics. This buck born in May will have a larger rack than a buck born in July...all other factors equal. Pre-breding is the time to kill does. It is much better for the herd from a biological perspective. Getting hunters to kill does that time of the year is another story. Most people go into hunting season dreaming of horns. That is why game management agencies have had better response putting special doe seasons at the end of the season, not because it makes sense from a biological standpoint.
ReinertsonTaxidermy
Well-Known Member
That's the thing though, it's all a wash and always will be. Crazy tillable market=higher priced land. Lower tillable market=lower priced land. What happens when you buy land for a high price because of the tillable market now and that goes to crap in 3 years. You've just grossly overpaid on a 20 year mortgage.
I appreciate what you are trying to do and wish I had your enthusiasm. Best of luck growing big bucks on your new land Skip!
At the risk of hijacking the thread (sorry Sligh1), I am going to have one more go at this. First of all, I can see that reducing the number of does could shorten the rut since there are fewer does to be bred, which would then in theory take your bucks off your property as they go on a search for more available does. Studies have shown that the breeding is pretty even and while a big buck is occupied for 48 hours or so with a doe, many other does are being bred by smaller, less dominant bucks. Frankly, the dominant bucks do not do the majority of the breeding if you believe the studies that have been done on this. If I had a reference I would cite it but I can't remember the places I have read this. I have even seen with my own eyes a 1.5 buck breed a doe while two much larger bucks were preoccupied chasing each other away from her. Of course, there is no way to know the genetic potential in a 1.5 unless he is a spike, which may or may not have much to do with his potential, depending on his birth date. So late fawns have smaller antlers the following year, that is common knowledge, but by 3.5 they have caught up, so that really is irrelevant.
I am convinced that a dominant buck has more to do with attitude (you could call it personality) and body size than with antler size so even if you dominant bucks were doing the majority of the breeding, you may not be getting the characteristics you want.
Plus, other studies have shown (once again sorry for not citing anything) that the does hold the key to the antler genetics. A buck's genes are passed to his doe fawns, which are then passed to her buck fawns. I think it is called dominant-recessive correct me if I am wrong. This is similar to the way the male pattern baldness gene is passed in humans. If your mother's father was bald then you are more likely to be bald because you get the gene from her. In fact my father who is 74 has more hair than I do so I have first hand experience with this gene!!!!!
I am convinced that it makes no difference WHEN you shoot the does. All you can do is strive for a balanced buck doe ratio. You can't control ANY genetics through doe harvest.
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Recreational market can go up and down. Tillable market can go up and down. No one knows for sure what will happen. U think rec ground will go up- BUY IT. U think tillable market will go down- DONT BUT IT. But, it just as easily could be the other way around. Maybe both sky rocket up or maybe both tank in the toilet. Everyone has to speculate and buy what u want. I personally like a good COMBO farm- kind of like a mutual fund vs single stocks.
I also think I can grow more top end bucks on combo ground with great soils.
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Hardwood11
It is going to be a good fall!
I enjoy reading management philosophies and your system sure looks as good as any.
In regards to land purchases, I have never gone wrong with the exception of my commercial building (which is a wash). Good income farms will always produce even if the land value drops...CRP and cash rent payments keep coming. Yesterday I sat on the plane next to an Iowa farmer that owns 3000 acres. He said land is $8000 an acre in his county.
Do the math on that one, lots of millionaires in that county.
singlecoyote
Proud member of the IBA
How big is your new farm and how are the acres split up with tillable, timber, etc?
turtlshell
PMA Member
WOW...I wished I hunted a farm that even had 300 acres...hell I'd love to hunt something bigger than 40acres...let alone thinking about owning something or putting a strategic plan in place.
Totally jealous....and I'd shoot whatever buck I had the green light to shoot, because I don't want kicked out either
Nice work, someone bought an awesome piece of land from you.
Totally jealous....and I'd shoot whatever buck I had the green light to shoot, because I don't want kicked out either
Nice work, someone bought an awesome piece of land from you.
Since it's a thread asking for input on management decisions, I don't think he'll mine.
You are referring to studies that do not have the age structure that he is trying to acheive. With common hunting pressure most areas of the country have age structures similar to that in those studies. However, if you change the age structure to where there are more older class bucks, there will for sure be less breeding by younger bucks, thus giving the chance for larger genetics to prevail.
Absolutely not true. That buck born late will be playing catch up his entire life. The magnitude that he is behind will deminish over time, but a July born fawn will always be behind a May born fawn. They will only catch up at the peak of physical maturity, which is beyond 5.5 years.
Certainly there are cases where a lower scoring buck out muscles a higher scoring buck, but that is not how things work most of the time. Nature intends for the largest of each species to breed and produce offspring. We should make management decisions off that assumption and not worry about the bad boy forkhorn that beats up the 150" buck and breeds a doe now and then.
Also, all else being equal, larger body size equals larger antlers. That is easy to see in the different sub species of whitetails and also in late born fawns. So yes, larger bodied deer are more dominate, but chances are they also have larger antlers.
If you assume that you are dealing with a small peice of property that is strongly influenced by the deer herd surrounding you, then yes, it makes no difference what you are doing. Most people like to believe what they are doing makes a difference long term, so you might as well do as much as possible in a manner that will increase the quality of the herd. Killing does prior to breeding results in earlier fawns and a higher percentage of dominate bucks doing the breeding.
antlerfreak
New Member
letemgrow
PMA Member
Letting the genetically superior bucks reach maturity and giving the green light on the "run of the mill" from say 3.5 to 4.5 on helps hold the genetically superior ones on the farm.
Keeping the pop in check and increasing the native habitat will also go hand in hand with bigger antlers.
Keeping the pop in check and increasing the native habitat will also go hand in hand with bigger antlers.
letemgrow
PMA Member
The dominate buck may or may not breed the doe, he could be fighting off 3 young bucks while one sneaks in and breeds the doe. Heck twin fawns are do not always from the same buck. :way:
Skip,
I think that everything you are doing is right on! It's exactly what I've done on my farm. When I bought it 4 years ago there were no deer on it over 3.5 yrs old and most of the deer bucks had poor genetics. The previous owners had shotgun hunted it hard and shot everything they saw. After 4 years of passing the genetically superior bucks and letting them get to 5.5 yrs old, I'm now harvesting the kind of bucks I always dreamed of. It's also my goal every year to take one really nice buck and 1 or 2 management bucks that don't have great potential. I will hunt these management bucks at 3 or 4 years old. The longer you wait to hunt them, the harder they are to kill.
The only thing I might try to do differently than you outlined is to harvest as many of the does as I could during the early season. 2 reasons. You will be killing your resident does at that point. In the late season, deer from miles away come live on my farm because they are safe and there is plenty of food. If I kill a doe in January, I can't be sure I'm killing a "resident" doe. The other reason for killing does early is that it will make the rut better. Bucks will have to work harder to find does. I'd rather have fewer does during the rut and have more competition between bucks. This should result in the bigger more mature bucks that you've been passing, doing a higher percentage of the breeding. This sounds really good, but it's difficult. I was only able to kill a couple of does on my place early this year and we ended up taking around 15 in the late season. My preference would have been to take them early, but it's very difficult to kill that many with a bow.
I like you, love the management aspect of owning a farm and want mine to be the best that it can be. if you do all the things you mentioned, you should have great results.
I think that everything you are doing is right on! It's exactly what I've done on my farm. When I bought it 4 years ago there were no deer on it over 3.5 yrs old and most of the deer bucks had poor genetics. The previous owners had shotgun hunted it hard and shot everything they saw. After 4 years of passing the genetically superior bucks and letting them get to 5.5 yrs old, I'm now harvesting the kind of bucks I always dreamed of. It's also my goal every year to take one really nice buck and 1 or 2 management bucks that don't have great potential. I will hunt these management bucks at 3 or 4 years old. The longer you wait to hunt them, the harder they are to kill.
The only thing I might try to do differently than you outlined is to harvest as many of the does as I could during the early season. 2 reasons. You will be killing your resident does at that point. In the late season, deer from miles away come live on my farm because they are safe and there is plenty of food. If I kill a doe in January, I can't be sure I'm killing a "resident" doe. The other reason for killing does early is that it will make the rut better. Bucks will have to work harder to find does. I'd rather have fewer does during the rut and have more competition between bucks. This should result in the bigger more mature bucks that you've been passing, doing a higher percentage of the breeding. This sounds really good, but it's difficult. I was only able to kill a couple of does on my place early this year and we ended up taking around 15 in the late season. My preference would have been to take them early, but it's very difficult to kill that many with a bow.
I like you, love the management aspect of owning a farm and want mine to be the best that it can be. if you do all the things you mentioned, you should have great results.
I have a little different slice on this BUT I see what you both mean. See, one perspective that concerns me when shooting the does early.... If I am whacking and stacking the does off my place AND the neighbor is NOT shooting does- his place will be full of them and my place will be far lower on the deer #'s. Many of the bucks searching for does will go to his farm. And sure, you'll NEVER control bucks leaving totally BUT there's tons I can do to reduce it and not exacerbate it.
Now, I have to admit, I personally have problems with gutting does out in January and taking 2 fawns out, it is something I just don't want to do BUT understand for many, there's no alternative and I'm sure that doesn't bug most folks.
What I USUALLY do is take a late summer population assessment, if the doe #'s are out of control, I TRY and go in EARLY OCTOBER and whack & stack as many as I can BUT not the the level where I'm severely lower on doe #'s than my neighbors. I do want an INTENSE rut but I don't want it so intense (because I shot all the does) that the bucks go far greater distances (neighbors) searching. Precisely why many of my buddies that destroy the doe population early have many of their bucks missing during the rut. I hear it all the time..... "the buck XYZ who I've been after for 4 years dissapears during the rut every year BUT is back every year on my late season food source". Personally, I think I know why that is.
Changing the genetic make-up and worrying about which does I shoot is something that I likely won't be spending my mental energy on for some time to come. If I managed a 40,000 acre Texas farm, yep. Probably not anytime soon up here though. Just want to baby my young genetic studs & make the habitat 100% as good as it has the potential to be!
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kbnelson3
Supporter of Landowners
http://www.qdma.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Whitetail-Report-2011-low-res.pdf
skim down towards the bottom where they talk about management. In a nutshell, passing younger bucks is the only thing for sure strategy that will improve your buck size. unless you're in controlled conditions(enclosure), everything else is more or less a crap shoot.
skim down towards the bottom where they talk about management. In a nutshell, passing younger bucks is the only thing for sure strategy that will improve your buck size. unless you're in controlled conditions(enclosure), everything else is more or less a crap shoot.
I'm going to read this when I get home, thanks for posting.
My next question was - would it help if I high-fenced my farm? Kidding
Yes, the fundamentals of letting bucks get to age is so obvious YET so many guys won't do it (mainly in other states thankfully). I absolutely make that part of my management plan BUT I take it far past that too with habitat, food, shooting bucks on age & not on score, letting younger top genetic bucks live, etc.
I'll read this later, thanks!
singlecoyote
Proud member of the IBA
Skip,
How many acres do you own now? How are the acres split up with timber and tillable and whats the neihboring properties like?
How many acres do you think it takes per mature buck? (How close will they tolerate being next to another mature deer?)
How many acres do you own now? How are the acres split up with timber and tillable and whats the neihboring properties like?
How many acres do you think it takes per mature buck? (How close will they tolerate being next to another mature deer?)
Just sold my 315, not sure what I'll wind up with for acreage totals yet. I want more land right by my house with 50/50 split (ROUGHLY) timber/tillable. My 315 CONSISTENTLY held 5-8 bucks that were 5.5 or older. I think that's RARE but it did. I could follow them over the years, I personally believe they rarely left and I could consistently get pics of MOST of them through out the year. The bucks I wanted to shoot, 80% of the time we either got them or came really close. A few were more nocturnal or ghost-like than others.
I also feel in IOWA with good deer numbers, bucks do NOT travel as far as other areas and MOST folks think bucks travel farther than they do. If it's done right, I believe I can create a situation where the bucks live in small core areas. Now, you live in Minnesota with big timber- sure the bucks are going to travel farther, same with Canada OR any area with lower deer densities. It also depends on buck PERSONALITY- some are super aggresive and others are home-bodies and timid.
Personally, I think if I had 400 acres, I could consistently, year after year after year have 3-4 mature bucks around- 5.5 and older. Will some leave? SURE. Will some get shot by neighbors? Absolutely. BUT- I feel very confident with 400 acres I could get several to maturity EVERY SINGLE YEAR. I even think with the right 100 acre parcel, I could keep a couple safe to get to maturity- be far harder BUT I feel I could do it. Nothing is perfect (except for maybe high fence) but those are acreage ranges I think I could make a huge difference with. Heck, I think we had a nice set-up on my 1st 80 acre parcel- keeping all the timber bedding thick, nasty and secure while keeping the food 100 yards away- keeping that travel to a minimum during shotgun and late season - with my 80 acres, the bucks were usually only vulnerable during the rut.
*On all the parcels, I've had varying neighbors. I've had die-hard bowhunter neighbors, good managers & poor managers. The ones that made it the hardest to manage with was when I had multiple groups shotgun hunting my neighbor's farm every day all season. They have every right to do it BUT it sure killed a lot of the bucks. I sold that farm a long time ago. Now, with my 315 I just sold, I had top notch neighbors. All hunt BUT no one could hunt my fence for most part AND everyone wanted to work together to grow older deer. It's was much nicer with my 315.
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