Herd Management

[dbltree]

Good topic, to which can bring all kinds of discussion, opinions and the like so let's open that discussion here by moving the following post to this portion of the forums..

Originally Posted by Sligh1

Thanks again for post BMO.
Side topic on shooting does & having more bucks around.... Is the article or you mainly stating (I'm asking this just to understand and make sure I have it correct) - shoot does so their offspring don't leave/disperse AND to have a better ratio, thus a more intense & aggressive rut? Do you feel there's other reasons or those the main 2? Seriously just listening & making sure I grasp the perspective (which I am not saying I disagree with! Just understanding).

I realize that this thread was on growing RR corn and beans...but that being said there was so much information about growing RR corn and beans, or the lack of being able to that I felt it was appropriate to say why it might not be possible based on my experiences and by sound management (Dr. Grant Woods) to name a name. When we look at our properties we can look at them to find clues or evidence of other things we can improve upon. One of those things is not being able to bring 6 acres of beans to podding....that can be a symptom of too high a deer population making it a very relevant discussion point on food plots...especially corn and beans since it seems these are the crops that typically don't pan out well in over-populated areas.

To your question, shooting does accomplishes two things. First, it causes buck fawns to not disperse keeping them on your farm because the mother kicks off the buck fawn/no mother no dispersal...and Second, and more importantly, once you have lowered your own deer herd numbers especially the doe family groups, it makes it much more likely that buck fawns that have been displaced on surrounding farms and are now bumbling around looking for a home---find one on your farm. This is not as likely if you have a high population of doe and doe family groups. Over time you can effectively load up your farm with bucks (who won't leave once they have set their home range) and then the rut is primo. Imagine one or two does coming in heat on a 120 acre farm for example with 4 times that many bucks. Talk about buck activity!

This is relevant when discussing corn and beans because if you have too many deer to support corn and beans, there is a good chance you don't have too many holes on your farm to accept dispersing buck fawns from neighboring farms.

Few thoughts on this subject...

1) Yearling buck dispersal is natures way of preventing inbreeding and getting new genetics infused into each area. Regardless of how many or few does there are, young bucks will (as they should) disperse and travel to new areas. This is something I want...current genetics will be maintained by the does which are homebodies. Attempting to keep all buck fawns on ones property is unwise and poor management so it is the last thing I want.

I typically have 15-18 3-5 yr old bucks whose core range is my 135 ac farm, I always harvest does...I feed my family and neighbors and then donate to Iowa's HUSH program. I have seen as many as 15 bucks following one hot doe (of all ages)...

2) Deer in relation to feed...one thing I think that has been overlooked is the fact that across southern Iowa as much as 30,000-50,000 acres of CRP per county exists and that limits many landowners to a very small number of acres in relation to cover.

In my case I have 135 acres, the CRP contract dictates that in my situation I can have a maximum of three acres which is around 2% of total acres. The cover that I have is premium, NWSG, thick brushy/cedar bedding areas all of which by design are intended to hold a large number of deer. This does not mean I have too many deer, quite the contrary my deer are fat and healthy and because of the cover under no form of social stress. Since crops like corn and beans are not designed to be grazed, even a few does can quickly decimate young, green growing grain crops .

This does not mean I have to many deer for my habitat but rather I have a limited number of acres on which to plant food. Secondly, all of my deer could thrive on just the natural native browse.

In my case green forage crops such as clover, brassicas and a combination of rye, oats, peas and radish can provide much higher tonnage and do it year around.

Food in relation to cover then must be taken into context and no individual without knowing another landowners situation can come to any sort of conclusion regarding appropriate deer numbers.

A landowner in WI can not begin to know what a landowner in SC is faced with so herd management must be done on a case by case, individual manner.

I manage for a good buck to doe ratio keeping in mind that 4 bucks will not fight over one doe when there are plenty more across the property line. Having too few does will cause bucks to travel to neighboring bedding areas making them vulnerable to other hunters.

3) Resident deer vs Neighboring deer

During summer months deer disperse and take advantage of all kinds of natural browse, forbs, ag crops etc. but in ag areas such as where I live, crops are commonly harvested in early fall and then fall tillage causes there food sources to disappear. This means that deer living within a roughly 1/2 mile radius of my farm will suddenly converge on my place, tripling even quadrupling the deer using my planted food sources. Those deer are not resident deer but they have a huge impact on the type and kind of food sources I plant.

I can not nor should not attempt to kill an inordinate number of deer simply because they have moved to my food source. I manage the does that live on my property, I know the does groups, I know the numbers I choose to leave what I feel are genetically superior does (by size, fawn size, ability to consistently raise two fawns etc.)

There are many many factors involved when making choices about how many does to harvest and that's something each landowner should think carefully about and then make the choices that are right for them. :way:

Please share your own thoughts on herd management but please be respectful of the fact that your farm or property may be nothing remotely like someone else's....what works for you may not work for someone else and your goals may be far different then another's....

 

[risto2351]

Paul,

Which does are you more likely to target.

I have always been on the assumption the older ones with the twins or triplets?

Also thought if they had a button buck following earlier on that you wanted that one (doe) out of there to help keep the button there?

Good interesting post.

 

[Crimson Arrows]

Great post Paul. Probably the best I have seen regarding those issues.

 

[dbltree]

Paul,

Which does are you more likely to target.

I have always been on the assumption the older ones with the twins or triplets?

Also thought if they had a button buck following earlier on that you wanted that one (doe) out of there to help keep the button there?

Good interesting post.

Keep in mind Tony that some of this has no right or wrong answer, so you may choose differently and that's perfectly fine.

I kill smaller does or adult does with no or one fawn first. I want good fawn recruitment and deer that show good genetics for body size. Fewer does producing more fawns preferred.
As mentioned above I want my buck fawns to disperse to prevent inbreeding and encourage new genetics.

Keep in mind as well that yearling bucks have a very large range, up to 1200 acres, so science tells us they naturally roam and will likely leave anyway. Again these are my personal management tools that are appropriate for me. Having been in the cattle business I know I want no part of promoting inbreeding

The landowners most likely to benefit from limiting buck fawn dispersal are those who live in states or areas where little or no age management occurs. If your neighbors kill yearling bucks you would certainly benefit from keeping yours home.
I live in an area where most landowners manage for mature deer and cull for good genetics so I welcome their yearling bucks.

Regarding buck numbers relative to acres of habitat, we have found that if we create outstanding habitat in the form of premium cover, bucks will quickly move in and take up residence. No need to shoot their mamas to get them to stay or attempt to build the buck numbers. Build the best habitat and they will come!

Each landowner may be faced with different challenges so no one size fits all in regards to herd management.

That said certainly I advocate sound herd management principles and keeping doe numbers at a level appropriate for the habitat and to maintain good relationships with neighbors, especially if they are farmers..

Here are some hypothetical situations to think about...no right or wrong answer, just to put things in perspective using an example of 80 acres...

80 acres...76 dense thick cover 4 acres clover...how many deer should be on this 80?

80 acres....20 acres thick cover, 60 ag crops...how many deer are ok?

80 acres....wide open timber, no planted food sources...how many deer?

80 acres...40 great cover, 35 CRP with NWSG and 5 acres food...how many deer?

80 acres...20 acres wooded draws, 60 acres NWSG....how many deer?

You get the idea...the possibles are endless and while you are welcome to throw some numbers out, realistically none of us can probably come up with a number....food for thought on this subject....

 

[antlrs10]

great post dbltree....great information if people will actually absorb this info and put thought into it! one of the best ive read in a long time

 

[GOARMY]

Tree you make a lot of good points.
I also think cover is number 1.

But, if you have cover and food and leave the deer alone you have it all. I am all about the select cut timber harvest along with good CRP. Even if the crp is only a 5 to 10 acre chunk.
I know my fawn reearing rate went up like 500% once the grass was mature. It took me 3 years to get the grass right and right from jump there was benefit from the timber harvest and left over tops. This time I have much more food and plan on some serious milo of the forage type. I cant gauge the place yet due to the lack of food. But give me 3 years and and if I dont see/kill a boone I will eat a turkey hotdog. If not it wont be for lack of effort.

Doing it is 3/4 of the fun.

 

[OneCam]

Great read and overall discussion. I wish I knew the answers - my thoughts have changed dramatically over the years There are so many variables including one's goals. One of the biggest variables in how you attempt manage your habitat and the herd is the management or lack thereof around you.

I think the answers that we seek will be very different if you manage land in the middle of thousands of acres of "well" managed land, an Island surrounded by farms that get relentlessly pounded during the gun season or somewhere between. As we can all agree no two farms have the same dynamics.

I have had the good fortune to meet and discuss this topic over the years with a number of land managers. Most of which had a goal of growing/hunting top end bucks ... I will say I have yet to find one with the answer (including the text books) yet we are all evolving our strategies.

Getting a buck to maturity is a tough business and I ... no WE should reclassify a mature whitetail as 5+. I/we should not look down on those that shoot younger deer - believe me I have shot plenty of immature bucks. With serious deer management discussions we just need to call a spade a spade.

I would suggest the biggest learning for me over the years specific to herd management - and this concept seems contradictory - is the importance creating turnover or simply killing more deer within the local herd that live on our lands. Stock piling deer - both bucks and does - didn't seem to create the number or sightings of top end bucks we were seeking in fact it did just the opposite.

My land is just a few hundred acres and is in an area gets pounded during the gun season. My current strategy as of the past 3 years is to shoot only a few does each year and as many bucks that meet the criteria as possible while insuring my younger deer have a chance to grow up. I give priority on habitat improvement, security then food with more than 80% of my place in excellent deer cover. If I was in the middle of a large QDM area you can bet that I would give up some cover to increase my food source.

So what is the criteria/goal for shooting bucks? This is something I'm still trying to figure out and stick too - any mature buck(5+) or immature(4yo - maybe a 3yo) deer that does not show good potential - generally low scoring 8pts. With that said I have personally killed 3 bucks in the last two years off the farm - two of which were immature but scored over 170" ... I can only imagine what they could have been ... Otherwise I have had others help with some turnover/fill tags that have met my goals.

How we hunt is a different discussion all together but I do believe this is another major variable on how deer use our land and how we can effectively manage a herd. Hunting your land correctly and "low impact" is just as important as any habitat project or foodplot implemented.

 

[6x6]

Great read and overall discussion. I wish I knew the answers - my thoughts have changed dramatically over the years There are so many variables including one's goals. One of the biggest variables in how you attempt manage your habitat and the herd is the management or lack thereof around you.

I think the answers that we seek will be very different if you manage land in the middle of thousands of acres of "well" managed land, an Island surrounded by farms that get relentlessly pounded during the gun season or somewhere between. As we can all agree no two farms have the same dynamics.

I have had the good fortune to meet and discuss this topic over the years with a number of land managers. Most of which had a goal of growing/hunting top end bucks ... I will say I have yet to find one with the answer (including the text books) yet we are all evolving our strategies.

Getting a buck to maturity is a tough business and I ... no WE should reclassify a mature whitetail as 5+. I/we should not look down on those that shoot younger deer - believe me I have shot plenty of immature bucks. With serious deer management discussions we just need to call a spade a spade.

I would suggest the biggest learning for me over the years specific to herd management - and this concept seems contradictory - is the importance creating turnover or simply killing more deer within the local herd that live on our lands. Stock piling deer - both bucks and does - didn't seem to create the number or sightings of top end bucks we were seeking in fact it did just the opposite.

My land is just a few hundred acres and is in an area gets pounded during the gun season. My current strategy as of the past 3 years is to shoot only a few does each year and as many bucks that meet the criteria as possible while insuring my younger deer have a chance to grow up. I give priority on habitat improvement, security then food with more than 80% of my place in excellent deer cover. If I was in the middle of a large QDM area you can bet that I would give up some cover to increase my food source.

So what is the criteria/goal for shooting bucks? This is something I'm still trying to figure out and stick too - any mature buck(5+) or immature(4yo - maybe a 3yo) deer that does not show good potential - generally low scoring 8pts. With that said I have personally killed 3 bucks in the last two years off the farm - two of which were immature but scored over 170" ... I can only imagine what they could have been ... Otherwise I have had others help with some turnover/fill tags that have met my goals.

How we hunt is a different discussion all together but I do believe this is another major variable on how deer use our land and we can effectively manage a herd. Hunting your land correctly and "low impact" is just as important as any habitat project or foodplot implemented.

Very well put Onecam. Exactly my strategy as well.

 

[OneCam]

Thanks Joe - I will have to give you credit as you were very influential about 3 years ago

Sent from my iPhone using IW

 

[Daver]

This is an interesting conversation and I too continue to reassess and rethink what our harvest strategies should be on our farm. I know one thing that I am convinced of though is that just passing up all of the younger bucks does not guarantee that your timber will be full of mature bucks in a couple of years OR even that there will be ANY booners calling your place home. I also acknowledge it is also true that no buck will be a booner if he gets shot when he is a younger buck.

A surprising thing to me in the past few years is the realization of just how small of an area that some bucks will be willing to call home if their needs are being met. I believe that some bucks will spend 95%, possibly more, of their time in less than 100 acres, sometimes less than that yet, if all things are right for them. Cover, cover, cover, food, cover, cover, etc.

Looking back, I think we may have been too aggressive in shooting does, not because there aren't enough deer in our woods, but because it is hard to pick them off and not give away your presence to the bucks that are around too.

For me, I have deliberately made a point of letting my boys hunt as they have grown up and while we haven't just tromped willy-nilly all over the timber it is also true that allowing them to develop as hunters has reduced the likelihood that any one of us would shoot a real top end buck in a given year. But one of my prime reasons for buying a farm 10+ years ago was not for me to shoot a booner every year or two, but to have a nice place that my boys and I could hunt together and create great memories together. And I am very happy to say that we totally accomplished that prime objective, I would not trade the past years of hunting there with them for 50 200" deer.

Now that one is in college and the other will be next year, I might readjust our strategery next year to be more focused on Mr. Big, or bust.

 

[6x6]

Daver- that whole college thing is a sad deal for sure. Colton goes next year too and it really starts sinking in now that the season is winding down.

 

[Daver]

Daver- that whole college thing is a sad deal for sure. Colton goes next year too and it really starts sinking in now that the season is winding down.

You said it Joe, it seems like only a few days ago we just got started, now in just a few days both of our boys will essentially be gone. I am really happy and blessed by God that both are where they are in life as citizens, students, sons, Christians, friends, etc, but it is mind boggling to look back and see how fast it all went down.

I just encourage all of the younger dads to spend all the time you can with your sons and daughters. It is something that once it is gone, it will never come back and a well raised child is a million times more important than any deer could ever be.

 

[6x6]

For sure Daver, all the hunts with my kids are crystal clear in my head, while all the rest are just a blur.

 

[dbltree]

For sure Daver, all the hunts with my kids are crystal clear in my head, while all the rest are just a blur.

:way::way:

Very well put Onecam. Exactly my strategy as well.

I agree!:way:

Herd management is an extremely important aspect of managing our land for whitetails and I work with landowners who have intense management strategies and others who quite honestly have none. I can't say there is a great deal of difference in the quality/quantity is mature bucks on those farms...not saying right or wrong...just sayin'.

The problem I have with the original post was this statement....

If you can't grow corn or beans on 6 acres you have too many deer

While I am certain the statement was well intentioned it is I must say a very presumptuous and misleading statement which brought up the last examples of various 80's with differing amounts of cover.

You see it is impossible without ever seeing the property in question to make any kind of statement regarding the ability to grow any crop type based on the number of deer one does or doesn't shoot.

In the case mentioned that 6 acres was located in the middle of thick NWSG, surrounded by premium cover that encompassed nearly 800 acres of additional cover...some of it ground where no hunting was allowed.

NO other crops existed except for those laying beyond the farm in question so deer had to travel (literally) thru the 6 ac plot to reach ag crops....all of which were in wide open fields without a tree in sight.

Even 10-12 deer of which 1/2 might be bucks can easily destroy corn and beans in a small hidden area and I doubt most landowners would consider that excessive. Combine those resident deer (on 80 acres) with those from surrounding properties and by December one has 50-60 deer concentrating on a food source.

This is just one example of course where there is not an excessive number of deer but a very limited amount of acres available for growing food because of the CRP contract. In reality that 80 acres typically has 15-20 bucks using it because of the tremendous cover...they alone could destroy grain crops.

The point is I feel it would be absurd to manage our deer to fit a crop versus managing the crop to fit the deer. The object of improving and enhancing habitat is usually to hold more deer and if the crop acres can not be increased then the type of crop can be changed to feed the deer.

Joe...I have found the same thing in regards to fawn recruitment.....plant NWSG and those fawns will survive! I have also found that leaving rye standing thru mid June does the same thing....when I finally mow it, fawns run out like rabbits! :way:

Great thoughts fellas...thanks for the input because every farm is unique and each landowners goals are not identical....

 

[letemgrow]

When I am taking does, I won't shoot every doe in a group that has fawns. I like to keep some does from each group to teach those fawns survival skills. This year, I took two adult does that did not have any fawns with them.

Couple years ago, two adult does came out with two fawns, I took the biggest one and left the other doe since there were fawns there that were obviously their's. Fairly certain that was a family group as the other doe stayed around the downed doe. I do not want to take just young does, or adult does, I take a mixture of them.

My management objectives are based more on the native browse pressure I see on the farm. If all the highly desirable things are there in high numbers, yet still being browsed heavily, I base doe harvests off that. Along with how many deer I am seeing.

Gotta say the only buck management I can do is shoot mature ones....when they show up....there are not any mature deer that call my place home. No longer do I run trail cams in the summer since there is literally one picture of a mature buck off my place in the summer over a 7 year span. Come fall, they show up by the droves.

I feel those does stake the claim on the creek bottom habitat, its 1/2 mile long and 100 acres total. Every time I head out there, I come across fawns which is a good thing.

 

[QTW]

Interesting conversation. Couple thoughts:

1) deer management starts with the dirt. Fawn recruitment, buck age class structure, doe harvest, etc. Everything should be determined by your dirt.

2) it is a fact that maximum antler growth occurs when population numbers are kept at 60% carrying capacity. How do you determine carrying capacity? Not an easy thing to assign but here are some considerations: food plots mowed down and extreme hardwood bud browsing is a good indicator of over population!

3) There is a lot of buzz around coyotes and their affects on recruitment. Coyotes eat fawns sure, but in most situations coyotes HELP land managers as most folks don't have the time or man power or make sufficient doe harvests. The only thing I worry about with coyotes if is if recruitment gets to a point where (0.45 fawns/ doe) where the number of buck fawns that survive is low enough that poor age structure becomes evident as a sheer result of ultra low buck numbers to start out.

4) I don't believe in the "buck magnet" theory in which your property can become home to all the bucks in area due to hunting pressure, food availability, etc. Bucks don't like each other. Simple. Too many in a given area results in extreme social stress and poor antler quality. In the iowa my goal is to hold 1 mature buck per 80-100 acres. As far as harvest regime goes, once I have reached this goal of holding mature bucks, I want to ensure that the bucks I am holding are desirable. I don't advocate strongly for the term "cull" but a 6.5 6-8 pt that scores 120-150 is not a desirable deer for us and we do our best to remove them and leave the high quality 4.5 140-160 type deer.

5) Doe harvest. Most of the time my prescription is a dosage of lead or broadhead to one doe per 40-60 acres (could be much more intense given a number of factors). This rate all goes back to the dirt. Neighbors activities certainly plays into this. Many properties in iowa tout a overall density of 80 plus deer per square mile. I like to see lower numbers if possible. If big bucks are your goals low density is key. It is always a balancing act between perceivable hunting pressure and the maintenance of sanctuaries. The late high power season for you guys is a good tool etc but harvesting does from day one through the last day of season isn't a problem if done in the right way.

6) When it comes to habitat work I have taken to an approach that focuses on the creation of cover above all else. Paul is the master on this theme and I genuinely believe that for holding mature bucks in iowa, cover is almost always going to be your limiting factor. Always best to plug the lowest hole in the bucket!

7) The best tool at our disposal for determining harvest regime is an annual camera survey to determine population statistics. I like doing surveys in sept right as deer transition from summer velvet ranges to fall/ winter range. This is different than running cameras and only looking at buck pics. A survey provides a overall picture of your herd and will provide excellent information to set a positive harvest regime.

 

[Sligh1]

Good stuff guys!!! Read it all, tremendous & a lot of what I do as well.

Lemme ask you all a question.....
There's a lot of "THEORIES" on the "BEST TIME" to shoot does & I see reason for both. **Now, in my case, I just shoot em when time allows, good situation & it doesn't mess up other hunting. Like, sometimes I will sit in early Oct & try and take 5 out in one sit.

ONE THEORY or idea is the take does early.... This will make the rut more intense coming up. It kills your "RESIDENT DOES", especially if you have great food late season that pulls in some of your neighboring does. Other reasons, etc.

2nd idea... Take the deer LATE in the year (Alsheimer for example has wrote articles on this end of discussion)..... This is often in cases where "hey, if I shoot all my does, my neighbors are not, they have lots of does during the rut & my bucks leave to their farms in search of does" for example. Basically, wanting to keep a "doe magnet" during rut (which yes, could be less intense for seeing bucks too) but keeping your farm from containing too few does while neighboring areas have more & losing bucks. Fawns being older & a bit wiser if they have them (minor issue), etc.

I actually can see some arguments for & against both scenarios & problems and advantages to each. *On a side note- "emotionally" based part of discussion BUT I am not a big fan of pulling 2 decent size fawns out of a doe's stomach late season. I do it BUT just not a fan. When I shoot earlier, I too just like shooting a single doe (not saying huge difference but just what I do).

So what most you think, if given the choice & opportunity to do one or the other, which would you prefer?

 

[bigbuckhunter88]

Good stuff guys!!! Read it all, tremendous & a lot of what I do as well.

Lemme ask you all a question.....
There's a lot of "THEORIES" on the "BEST TIME" to shoot does & I see reason for both. **Now, in my case, I just shoot em when time allows, good situation & it doesn't mess up other hunting. Like, sometimes I will sit in early Oct & try and take 5 out in one sit.

ONE THEORY or idea is the take does early.... This will make the rut more intense coming up. It kills your "RESIDENT DOES", especially if you have great food late season that pulls in some of your neighboring does. Other reasons, etc.

2nd idea... Take the deer LATE in the year (Alsheimer for example has wrote articles on this end of discussion)..... This is often in cases where "hey, if I shoot all my does, my neighbors are not, they have lots of does during the rut & my bucks leave to their farms in search of does" for example. Basically, wanting to keep a "doe magnet" during rut (which yes, could be less intense for seeing bucks too) but keeping your farm from containing too few does while neighboring areas have more & losing bucks. Fawns being older & a bit wiser if they have them (minor issue), etc.

I actually can see some arguments for & against both scenarios & problems and advantages to each. *On a side note- "emotionally" based part of discussion BUT I am not a big fan of pulling 2 decent size fawns out of a doe's stomach late season. I do it BUT just not a fan. When I shoot earlier, I too just like shooting a single doe (not saying huge difference but just what I do).

So what most you think, if given the choice & opportunity to do one or the other, which would you prefer?

When we feel it is needed we prefer to take our does early. It hasn't seemed to effect our ruts as much, and I dislike shooting does after the rut because you have no idea which possible buck fawn you just shot. I may be over thinking it, but when you watch one of your desired high class bucks breed a doe from your treestand, harvesting does after said point could take one of your future genetically superb deer without you knowing it.

 

[dbltree]

**Now, in my case, I just shoot em when time allows, good situation & it doesn't mess up other hunting.

Same here Skip...I use to take them all in early October but it seems I am busy now, right up til landowners start hunting in late October...then it's kinda to late.

So now I just wait for a warm night when bucks aren't likely to move early and does are out at 2:30.

Bucks travel the circuit of home bedding areas every 20-28 hours regardless if we take out a few beforehand or not...

 

[letemgrow]

I like to take a few early and later. I see huge benefits to the old matriarchs teaching the young ones how its done before they r taken out. The fawns have a lot to learn about how to avoid predators, check the wind, where to go etc...