High grading bucks

[newfarmer]

Its crazy to me- I was always one that just wanted a nice buck. Never did care what the score was as long as he looked good. As I have aged, now I want a mature deer, dont care the score. We have had some very fortunate years to hunt the same deer over multiple years, the one we finally killed at 8 1/2 and scored maybe 110? And over the years, never broke 140... I do think everyone hunts for a reason, but to many people want to jump the high horse and want "their" way.
Look- the only thing I want right now is the slaughter of does to slow way down. A group brags they shot 17 does, and next year their goal is 18- well I will pass on hunting near them.
This year, I had a few really young STUDS....They were absolutely off limits, but they crossed the fence and got shot. You know what, congrats was in order for the neighbor because HE was happy with them. Great! Just because I didnt want to shoot it, not holding anyone else to my standards saves a whole lot of drama.
As far as genetics, anyone that says "its a cull buck"- you cant control genetics in a wild herd due to the fact that does do contribute 50% of the genetics. No one can look at a doe and say "Yup, shes a 200" producer" People that use cull buck I feel just want to have an excuse because they couldnt resist shooting - AKA, my father in law. But again, shoot what makes you happy, just dont tell me its a "cull"... I shot one a few years ago that I typically would never have shot but he was a BULLY. He chased a 180" all day long any time he would try to come down a draw towards me. I shot him, next day that bigger one was in the timber non stop and I shot him with gun. But had I not shot him, I dont feel like I ever would have shot the big one. Again, its a reason to why I shot him.
A different thread, I had posted that I had the opportunity to ride along with a guy who raised deer, and sold them to some producers of shows- they knew exactly what they were doing by bringing in KNOWN high quality genetics in does, that back then, does werent being shot to the extent they are now. So now you have a TON of great genetics for years of fawns being dropped. Pretty easy to change a genetic area that way, but by simply shooting bucks out of a herd, you will never change them.

 

[jkratz5]

to hard to control what happens around you in most areas to really worry about this. I set my own standards every year and have a list of shooters. if a straggler comes in with a giant rack, he is getting shot 1. Because he isn’t from my farm and 2. If it trips my trigger I guess I don’t give a shit how old he is or what others say.

That being said, I set out to shoot deer that are mature. I enjoy being in the woods and playing the game. My neighbors have different standards and I know that the majority of the deer I may pass are going to get hammered if they wander off, just can’t let it get to you and have to respect why they hunt!

 

[Muskrat24]

Granted I have been fortunate to shoot more than my fair share of really nice deer and I am sure it has helped me chill A BUNCH in this conversation but one thing I bring myself back to now is deer are a renewable resource and if someone shoots a nice up and comer and they are both happy and harvest the deer legally more power to them and congrats and the next year or a few years later there can be a deer I want to shoot again. So many people think they OWN the particular deer and makes people both possessive and jealous!! Very few of us own enough ground to completely control the bucks in a herd. And why would we want to because the buck could also move in as easy as out of an area.

 

[thughart]

Granted I have been fortunate to shoot more than my fair share of really nice deer and I am sure it has helped me chill A BUNCH in this conversation but one thing I bring myself back to now is deer are a renewable resource and if someone shoots a nice up and comer and they are both happy and harvest the deer legally more power to them and congrats and the next year or a few years later there can be a deer I want to shoot again. So many people think they OWN the particular deer and makes people both possessive and jealous!! Very few of us own enough ground to completely control the bucks in a herd. And why would we want to because the buck could also move in as easy as out of an area.

Very well said and I couldn’t agree more.
I will add :
1 ) At the end of the day, we as individuals have very little control over what others kill and that’s a positive thing as I wouldn’t want to be under the standards or lack thereof of others.
2 ) guys need to realize that capturing a bucks image on trail camera does not equal ownership of that deer. Once you get that image you cannot claim him as off limits on neighboring properties. Some seem to operate like this and then pout when the deer is taken out by another hunter. This attitude would drive me from the sport to something less stressful.


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[IowaBowHunter1983]

The inverse of this, in terms of individual deer management, is taking out the smaller racked deer and leaving the best. THATS where it's at, if you're into managing your farm at that level. Not for everyone and that's totally OK.

 

[northcedar]

At times I feel I own a higher share of a buck than the fenceline sitting neighbors who seem to always need to recover the deer on my side.

 

[iowavf]

Unless you have a lot of land, it's a gamble to let a nice buck walk hoping he'll be back next year. Over the last few years I've let a couple good ones walk, yet to see them again but I know they're still there because my brother has seen them. It's up to the individual as to what they will shoot which is fine with me, but don't be one of those people who take the first buck they see every year, then say wasn't what I wanted and in the next breath complain because they never see any big bucks where they hunt!

 

[letemgrow]

May want to reassess your property, habitat or camera locations.

This year alone, I have 7 bucks that are 3.5 YR on camera on our small 60 acre farm in Central MO. All but two I have previous history with as 2.5 YR. I only have one 4.5 YR but that is fairly typical for us. Drops off very sharply after 3.5, every year after rifle season.

Surrounding pressure wise: I'm consistently in the top 3 harvest counties on MDC list in the state, annually.

What's the habitat, pressure like immediately surrounding your farm?

It sounds like hunters around you aren't shooting the first APR legal buck (or any buck if not in APR county) they see.

 

[Obsessed]

I whole heartedly encourage 'others' to pass on young 150ish up and commer studs. I also have / will never talk down to anyone for legally harvesting ANY deer.

 

[bluedog69]

May want to reassess your property, habitat or camera locations.

This year alone, I have 7 bucks that are 3.5 YR on camera on our small 60 acre farm in Central MO. All but two I have previous history with as 2.5 YR. I only have one 4.5 YR but that is fairly typical for us. Drops off very sharply after 3.5, every year after rifle season.

Surrounding pressure wise: I'm consistently in the top 3 harvest counties on MDC list in the state, annually.

I wish I could reassess my neighbors to somewhere else. LOL

The NW corner of MO does not have antlerless season anymore and reduced does tags. We were devastated by EHD in 2012. Have never fully recovered.
We used to kill 18 - 22 deer a year off our farm every year. Now its 1-3.
You are consistently in the top three harvest counties because you have that many deer. Not because you have a lot of hunters killing more of what is out there. Top 3 counties have killed 4 to 4.5 times as many deer as my county has. At that rate if I had 2 3 year old bucks you should have 8-10.

 

[Bassattackr]

You are consistently in the top three harvest counties because you have that many deer. Not because you have a lot of hunters killing more of what is out there. Top 3 counties have killed 4 to 4.5 times as many deer as my county has. At that rate if I had 2 3 year old bucks you should have 8-10.

My point being..

I have 60 acres. You have 600. I don't have 10X the deer you do

 

[Bassattackr]

I wish I could reassess my neighbors to somewhere else. LOL

Fair statement, I have a few of those as well

 

[Bassattackr]

What's the habitat, pressure like immediately surrounding your farm?

It sounds like hunters around you aren't shooting the first APR legal buck (or any buck if not in APR county) they see.

50/50 Ag and Timber. Neighbor to north/East and I work together to manage. South and west shoot the first they see. WW2 on opening weekend.. Plenty of hunters around me still shooting young bucks. "..he wasn't the one I wanted but.." every year.

To be fair, pressure used to be immense, but its reduced some with a couple of immediate neighbors. The recent rebound in buck numbers (and being lucky enough to evade EHD) show this.

I'm very strict on intrusion to allow them to pile into my section when the orange army comes marching in around me. That and an increase in cover has greatly helped IMO.

Go back 5 years and we rarely had a 3+ RY on camera. After 2.5 they would always relocate off our property the following years to bed elsewhere, occasionally getting once at 11 pm - 3 am. I know this as I have pictures from neighbors that killed them in the following year or two.

Hope that helps.

 

[cchadww]

I think a big part is education of what constitutes an older buck. I think people naturally look at the rack and think big rack = old buck. Quick story on this…

Last year, I shared pictures of 3 bucks that were on my “no shoot” list with a couple neighbors. One neighbor is awesome. We agreed to let those pass. He and I both passed on one we call Muley. I think he was just a 3yo. He passed him on the hoof and said “that is a monster, he has to be at least 5yo.” This neighbor has been hunting 20 years longer than I have and knows a bunch more than I do.

This year, that deer is back, and he as BLOWN UP. I still think he is just a 4yo this year. But even as a 4yo, he is on our hitlist. Here is his pic from past 3 years:

2021 — I aged him as a 2yo

2022 — I aged him as a 3yo. Neighbor guessed 5yo

2023 - I’ve got him as a 4yo. But have been hunting him hard (that is a story for another thread)


Then, last year, I took a deer late season that I thought was 4yo. The same neighbor helped me recover the deer and IIRC, he said he thought he was 5yo. I sent in the teeth, and it came back as a 3yo. It scored 148” with a broken browtine.

My point is that a big part is everyone is at a different stage in their ability to even age bucks on the hoof.

My current strategy is to send in our buck teeth every year, for continued learning. I’ve offered to all of my neighbors to do the same for no charge to them. Finally had one take me up on that this year—it was a different neighbor who took out one of the bucks on our no-shooter list last year (which I have no issue with at all-just as long as he stays on his side of the fence )

Also, this year, I have a separate list called “Management Bucks.” To make this list, it has to be a 3yo+ and not have the potential to be a monster (e.g. 8pt, or no browtines or deformed racks, etc). We’ve taken one bully 8pt on this list so far this year. And if someone joins us to hunt, we show them the list of management bucks that they are welcome to take home.

Always learning — this site has been great for that.


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[Muskrat24]

I think a big part is education of what constitutes an older buck. I think people naturally look at the rack and think big rack = old buck. Quick story on this…

Last year, I shared pictures of 3 bucks that were on my “no shoot” list with a couple neighbors. One neighbor is awesome. We agreed to let those pass. He and I both passed on one we call Muley. I think he was just a 3yo. He passed him on the hoof and said “that is a monster, he has to be at least 5yo.” This neighbor has been hunting 20 years longer than I have and knows a bunch more than I do.

This year, that deer is back, and he as BLOWN UP. I still think he is just a 4yo this year. But even as a 4yo, he is on our hitlist. Here is his pic from past 3 years:

2021 — I aged him as a 2yo

2022 — I aged him as a 3yo. Neighbor guessed 5yo

2023 - I’ve got him as a 4yo. But have been hunting him hard (that is a story for another thread)


Then, last year, I took a deer late season that I thought was 4yo. The same neighbor helped me recover the deer and IIRC, he said he thought he was 5yo. I sent in the teeth, and it came back as a 3yo. It scored 148” with a broken browtine.

My point is that a big part is everyone is at a different stage in their ability to even age bucks on the hoof.

My current strategy is to send in our buck teeth every year, for continued learning. I’ve offered to all of my neighbors to do the same for no charge to them. Finally had one take me up on that this year—it was a different neighbor who took out one of the bucks on our no-shooter list last year (which I have no issue with at all-just as long as he stays on his side of the fence )

Also, this year, I have a separate list called “Management Bucks.” To make this list, it has to be a 3yo+ and not have the potential to be a monster (e.g. 8pt, or no browtines or deformed racks, etc). We’ve taken one bully 8pt on this list so far this year. And if someone joins us to hunt, we show them the list of management bucks that they are welcome to take home.

Always learning — this site has been great for that.


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Great deer and true story but it would be interesting to see how the teeth come back on that deer as the triggers I look for say he is 100% 1 year older in each picture than you are thinking, just my opinion. If truly only 4, he needs to walk. . Nice deer. The concept on cementum annuli is good but I have read multiple stories where the accuracy is in question. They may even have a disclaimer of +/- 1. Articles have shown trail cam pics of deer and the tooth aging is off by more than one year. Still agree with your general thought. From my experience in the area I hunt in Iowa it would take an EXCEPTIONAL 3yo to almost hit 150.

 

[newfarmer]

Great deer and true story but it would be interesting to see how the teeth come back on that deer as the triggers I look for say he is 100% 1 year older in each picture than you are thinking, just my opinion. If truly only 4, he needs to walk. . Nice deer. The concept on cementum annuli is good but I have read multiple stories where the accuracy is in question. They may even have a disclaimer of +/- 1. Articles have shown trail cam pics of deer and the tooth aging is off by more than one year. Still agree with your general thought. From my experience in the area I hunt in Iowa it would take an EXCEPTIONAL 3yo to almost hit 150.

I sent some teeth in on a deer we knew EXTREMELY well. They were off by 2 years (at least) but he was OLD. The statement said they are only about 80% accurate. But it’s still nice to see what they are thinking

 

[Sligh1]

I LOVE these topics!!!! So many valid views & it’s a deep subject to unpack

IMO- there’s 2 main points about this….
1) the BIOLOGY, herd management, what’s best for the resource & science of it. Still debatable but far more fact based. Black & white objective
2) the hunter element…. Subjective!!!!! Emotion. A discussion that will have a million opinions & no definitive right or wrong answer.

BIOLOGY: here’s my views…..
1) killing does or button bucks…. It’s a wash. U don’t know if they high scoring or low scoring & its neutral in outcome. that one is pretty much irrelevant.
2) Does high grading degrade the top end? ABSOLUTELY!!! Now- this must occur over a wide range for a sustained period of time. I’ll use MO for an example…. The best 3 year olds are often shot in MO with rifles & crossbows before or just as breeding is going. The “junkers” as some view them get passed by many of the same people who shoot the young studs. Done over hundreds of thousands of acres right as breeding is taking place & done for DECADES- it absolutely has an impact IMO. i know one pocket in Mercer MO with great gens. That’s the one exception I know of & yes, I know there’s many more. The majority of the rest I know of- when I cross the line, the vast amount of “mature 120” 8 points” is staggeringly higher in MO. this is anecdotal but I’ve seen this over & over across countless hundreds of farms. Iowa’s age class size 20 miles N of line are bigger than MO deer of same age class 20 miles S of line. Decades of high grading where best deer shot during rut PLUS a lower age class average have done this. It just takes a massive amount of people & time. Will there still be giants in MO or low scoring in iowa? Of course. On average, I’m going to GUESS that decades of high grading in MO results in a 15-20” difference on average in mature bucks.
3) EVIDENCE…. I’ll give u some examples that u all can decide for yourself….. u let bucks get to maturity fairly often…. Say u have several bucks with short g2’s & long G3’s. Or long brows & split g2’s. Or any noticeable traits…. I’ve seen infinite bucks show those EXACT traits for decades in areas. Like deer that look the same 10 & 15 years apart. Those genetics travel down the line BIG time & impact even local areas substantally. I would even say my home farm has about 5-6 different genetic traits I’ve seen in various deer for 15 years. No doubt those gens get passed down. If folks continue to target the best gens & let the lowest scoring 8’s go- there’s zero doubt in my mind u will have countless more low scoring 8’s. See it all the time. All this takes time.
4) the logging analogy is spot on. I have to agree with it!!! Take the best, leave the junk for 3 timber sales - u will have almost all junk.
5) iowa is more immune to genetic shifts because MORE bucks get shot after breeding is over vs other states with guns in rut. And the age structure is simply better. So, if a bomber gets killed at 4 or 5 - he still was likely able to breed those 2 years. It will take longer & be harder for iowa to be high graded due to this.
6) last anectodal…. We shoot the old low scoring deer as early in their life as we can catch it. Usually 4. The high scoring usually live later- 6-7. We never pass the low scoring & usually get shot in youth & October (by happy proud hunters) There’s no doubt in my mind our genetic pool has gotten Better in 15 years. Opinion & observation.
7) we can’t disagree that killing high scoring deer at young ages & passing low scoring deer is BAD BIOLOGY. Or bad for future hunters. & heck, healthier deer grow bigger racks too…. That means it’s targeting the healthiest most robust deer out there. Biology in this argument is pretty cut & dry. Let best deer get older & lower scoring bucks need to be taken & not passed. That’s simple biology here- black & white & void of emotion/opinion.

YES- we will hear the (VALID) point to end of time “YOU won’t change genetic pool”. I agree with that when talking specific actions. BUT: over long periods of time (decade+ for example) & vast areas (like a state or region that has laws that encourage or discourage younger bucks to get shot during vulnerable times)…. Genetics can change little by little. IMHO - if u were to follow “average 3 yo scores” in MO vs IA, I believe (without evidence other than what I see & common sense) that the difference in average scores will continue to have a larger deviation as more times goes on with regs that result in 2 different outcomes across whole states. Total opinion there.

HUNTING & EMOTION…..

I think u all covered that above. No real right or wrong. I can’t say anything that will change anyone’s position anyways. The ONLY 2 cents id say….. to dudes that it’s ONLY about score & no care for age…. Do you care about the biology discussion at all? Maybe not & that’s ok. Do u care about other hunters shooting “a buck of their dreams if u passed & they shot? Is there more to the value of a deer than what it can do for YOU vs benefits to other hunters, management, biology & maybe enjoying the experience of watching & passing a younger high scoring deer? To many- NO. & that’s ok- I mean it. And the law will always let u do this anyways so someone’s OPINION will have zero impact on u. I have a bit of opinion & my opinions are based on biology. But- in the end, if I disagree & anyone shoots “whatever”. Awesome. Good for u & u will NEVER see me ridicule someone on here. & guys, I get it…. There’s also the spectrum & growth of a hunter …. I might not shoot a bomber 3 year old NOW…. But at one point of my life I did. Wouldn’t change it. Heck, I shot 1.5’s!!!!!! So- I get it. I think we all do. How, after I shot a few- “let’s up the game” or “should we let bomber 3’s go and try for OLDER deer?” The answer for me is yes. The answer for u: that’s the beauty - your choice & what anyone else thinks is irrelevant.
Where I bottom line this…. If we keep the guns (& crossbows) out of rut- we won’t have to worry as much in iowa about high grading. Second that changes & anything that puts more killing pressure on best 2-4 yo’s before rut- we in big trouble.
Great discussion & I respect every point of view I read here. & I know this topic has a lot of opinions. It’s a good one!!!

 

[cchadww]

I sent some teeth in on a deer we knew EXTREMELY well. They were off by 2 years (at least) but he was OLD. The statement said they are only about 80% accurate. But it’s still nice to see what they are thinking

Yes, 80-85% accurate is the figure I’ve seen. Much lower accuracy with molar wear method. Would I like 100% accuracy? Yes, but I can live with, and am ok paying for 80-85% accuracy to help inform my judgment.

Plus, I’m convinced getting the neighbors involved is helping to improve the age structure.


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[tall@wide]

2023 - I’ve got him as a 4yo. But have been hunting him hard (that is a story for another thread)


Just imagine this buck at 6 and 7 years old.

 

[letemgrow]

I also think it’s harder to tell +-1 year apart without history.

Is he 3 or 4?

2 or 3?

It’s not nearly as hard to say:

Is he 3 or 5?

2 or 4?


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