Shovelbuck
Active Member
Doesn't matter. It's still an animal on the wrong tag. That was the point I was attempting to get through.
If you want to really know, ask a CO.
Is this legal/ethical?
- Thread starter StantheMan
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Doesn't matter. It's still an animal on the wrong tag. That was the point I was attempting to get through.
If you want to really know, ask a CO.
rutnstrut
PMA Member
It would be nice for a landowner if it was legal then he could decide what season he wanted to have two buck tags for after he already had one down. But no it would be illegal, youve got to have your mind made up what season your hunting and have that tag purchased before the hunt for it to be legal.
Earl E. November
Member
Around here the opposite happens quite regularly.. Farmer has a LOP and a regular tag.. First deer down gets the LOT regardless of where it was taken.. Either way it's wrong. Gotta have the permit in your pocket before you shoot it, and you have to shoot it in the area the permit is written for.. Pretty simple.. Don't try and make it something it ain't.
150 Class
Well-Known Member
Simple question with an unrelated twist added to it. The fact that he had a legal tag at the time of harvest has nothing to do with the legality of using an illegal tag. Is it legal for me to shoot a deer BEFORE I buy my tag and then tag the deer with the tag? What you had in your possession at the time of the harvest has nothing to do with the legality of the post harvest purchase and tagging of the deer. I agree with Shovel and everyone else. His comparison is apples to apples. Can I buy and use the tag AFTER the harvest?
StantheMan
New Member
I can say with confidence that no, it's not legal for you to shoot a deer BEFORE you buy your tag.
I really don't care either way, I was just wondering if a website full of knowledgable Iowa deer hunters could say FOR SURE if this was illegal or legal. I consider myself an avid hunter and I could not answer this question myself.
Can anyone point to a specific regulation or law that would definately say if this was legal/illegal.
Can I assume that if no one has pointed out a specific regulation (or said "contact your CO") that; a) nobody on here knows for sure, b) it could possibly be a "loop hole" that would allow this to happen?
Those of you wanting to bash someone for breaking the game laws, save it. This post was meant to answer a curious question that had been raised recently, not for gaining an edge or busting a poacher.
Honestly, when I heard of this scenario I figured for sure that there was an obvious law(s) broken. When I looked through the regulation booklet I didn't find anything that would definativly lable this as against the law.
So I raised the question here. No need to play Ethics Policeman on me here. I agree with everyone that it doesn't sound right, but if a guy wants to do it and there is not a law that says he can't then I not going to call him a cheater.
I feel like I from Mizzou right now... just show me the law!
No hard feelings...:drink1:
jesserichard
New Member
It would be like only having a any sex tag, shooting a doe, and then going to the store and getting a antlerless tag. Your are legal in shooting that doe, but when u go get a tag to put on it is when you are crossing boundries.
flugge
Well-Known Member
www.iowadnr.gov thats where you can go and find all of the regulations. It says right on the front of the booklet not all regulations are in it, and to look there for more. Either way, you cant shoot a deer without a tag, therefore if you buy the tag after the deer, its illegal to tag it with the tag you just bought. You can hunt obviously since you had the other tag, but if you went and bought a tag after the deer was shot, it is illegal since you did not have the tag in your possesion when it was shot. You would have to use the tag you had. Out of a CO officers mouth.
GregBickal
New Member
I think you should only be able to shoot 1 buck a year period. I don't think that the buck tag should be statewide. I think you should be forced to pick a county.
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jesserichard
New Member
I disagree with that. What if you hunt in more than 1 county? I have land I can hunt in 4 different counties. It would make no sense to have to pick one county to hunt in.
turtlshell
PMA Member
Just for clarity, I'd assume you shot it with a bow, right? If so, you're still allowed a late ML tag and I assume you have every right to fill it the same day you buy it. So in your scenario I don't see why the CO paid you a visit, except to check for the proper entrance/exit wound.
To answer the original question with definite answer, please see page 22 of the regulations where it states
"These licensesare valid only in the county and season or deer
population management zone and season selected
by the hunter at the time the license is purchased."
Pretty clear cut there, I think. Since the tag only becomes valid after purchase and you harvested the animal before it was purchased, it makes your scenario illegal.
deeraddict
PMA Member
Pretty good discussion here and I agree illigal and unethical.....But for arguments sake and point of discussion only..... When is the deer really harvested? Just because it was shot doesn't mean it was killed? If the guy shoots it and does not immediately attempt to retrieve it because of lets say questionable shot, and leaves and does the whole buy new tag thing, then goes and recovers the deer?
Another spin on this. Say you are hunting in the a.m. and shoot a doe. Loose the trail and don't find her. Go back to stand and shoot another doe later in the day, tag her and leave the timber. That night you buy a new Antlerless tag, and hunt in the morning. As you leave the timber the next moring you walk upon the doe you shot the morning before in a spot you overlooked. It is cold and you know the meat will be good, but she was shot before the tag was bought, so you have to leave her?
Again, just thought this is good discussion, not trying to bend the laws.......
Another spin on this. Say you are hunting in the a.m. and shoot a doe. Loose the trail and don't find her. Go back to stand and shoot another doe later in the day, tag her and leave the timber. That night you buy a new Antlerless tag, and hunt in the morning. As you leave the timber the next moring you walk upon the doe you shot the morning before in a spot you overlooked. It is cold and you know the meat will be good, but she was shot before the tag was bought, so you have to leave her?
Again, just thought this is good discussion, not trying to bend the laws.......
turtlshell
PMA Member
Page 13 of the regs actually says that if you left that first doe in this scenario after finding her the second day and you had a valid tag that you would be breaking the law...because you "cannot leave a usable portion of the game in the field"
deeraddict
PMA Member
But how can you tag her when you did not have that tag on you when you shot her. So back to the original question, what if a guy did this same thing, but shooting a buck, and then used his LOP when he finds it the next day. Now understand I am not implying anyone intentionally breaks the law in either situation, but by everything I have read everyone agrees that in both cases, tagging a deer, (doe or buck) with a tag you bought after it was shot is illigal.
turtlshell
PMA Member
Great point and a I understand where you're going with it...but the tag you did have at the time you shot the first doe had already been used, therefore any valid tag you had during this retrieval of the original doe then becomes a "supposed to be used" tag.
Right or wrong, it boils down to ethics. If you intentionally go out and shoot a deer, then go and buy a different tag to use on it...it's a shady thing to do, no different than using an unfilled statewide bow tag during late muzzle just so you can keep hunting.
What about the guy that shoots a buck the day before shotgun1 with a bow? If he has a shotgun1 tag, can he still use his bowtag upon retrieval the next morning? What if it was a gut shot by bow, that required a shotgun blast to finish the job? Can he still use the bowtag?
It's all grey area at best...and my experience is the less amount you leave for the authorities to interpret the better off you are (AKA, just do the right thing)
deeraddict
PMA Member
I agree with you there:way:. A quick note from my own experience. 2 years ago I shot a buck that had about 6" spikes as he was crappy and kept coming to my calling, after I remembered that you can put an antlerless tag on a spike. After recovering him I saw that he had a slight "split at the top of a spike. ( Looked like your index finger and middle finger points do when held next to eachother). I tought crap, got to use the buck tag as it culd be considered a forked antler. Called the CO and explained what happened, he ame and checked it out and said in his opinion not a fork, antlerles tag applied.
This topic got me to read the regs again and see how there is a grey area someone could argue and make points each way. Good discussion.
deeraddict
PMA Member
This got me thinking enough to run the scenarios by my local CO in an e-mail. Got his response today. In my message to him, I added a second twist to the question about shooting a doe, not finding it, shooting a different one later, and then finding the first one even after that. See below.
These are interesting questions. Here’s my interpretation of the law which could be different than a judge’s view or an attorney’s interpretation or for that matter, another officer’s opinion. In my daily activities, I try to make law enforcement decisions based upon what the law says and what a “reasonable” person may see it as, among other things. “Reasonable” is important to remember. You are not going to find any description in the law books that will deal with your scenarios specifically. So one has to compare or utilize laws that deal with the “bare bones” components of the situation at hand or in your case, your scenarios. Keep in mind also, that I often suggest to a hunter that if they find themselves in a predicament, it does not hurt to call the local conservation officer and discuss the matter rather than have the officer find out later or during the particular event. I believe most conservation officers are reasonable. One more thing, I often see legal hunting activity that in my mind is very unethical. I try not to go there anymore. That really is not my job.
Scenario 1.
Harvesting a deer and then obtaining the tag is illegal. (This was the scenario that Stantheman started this thread with.)
Scenario 2. (this is my scenario of shooting a doe and not recovering until the next day, after another deer was tagged, and another deer was shot.)
Again, harvesting a deer and then obtaining the tag is illegal. However, this is where I would suggest that the hunter contact the local conservation officer and explain the situation. This scenario appears simple but there are several questions that an officer might ask to get to the bottom of the story. Possible solutions that an officer might consider are seizing the deer, seizing the deer and tag, issuing a citation, offering the meat to a needy family, allowing the hunter to take the deer, discussing and solving the “problem” with the hunter, and more. The added buck situation may get more involved due to the fact that, depending on the season that the hunter is hunting, often a hunter is limited in the number of bucks they can harvest(example: bow season). I would ask myself and/or the hunter what was the intent of the hunter, how much effort was put into the recovery, why did the hunter call or not call, has there been problems with the hunter in the past, was there a simple reason why the hunter did not have extra tags originally, and more.
Again, harvesting a deer and then obtaining the tag is illegal. I would then offer that an officer may use “reasonable” discretion.
I’m sure that’s as clear as mud.
Actually a common sense take on things. I was suprised by the answer to the 2nd scenario a bit, as I actuall agreed with turtl, that you should not leave it in the field.
These are interesting questions. Here’s my interpretation of the law which could be different than a judge’s view or an attorney’s interpretation or for that matter, another officer’s opinion. In my daily activities, I try to make law enforcement decisions based upon what the law says and what a “reasonable” person may see it as, among other things. “Reasonable” is important to remember. You are not going to find any description in the law books that will deal with your scenarios specifically. So one has to compare or utilize laws that deal with the “bare bones” components of the situation at hand or in your case, your scenarios. Keep in mind also, that I often suggest to a hunter that if they find themselves in a predicament, it does not hurt to call the local conservation officer and discuss the matter rather than have the officer find out later or during the particular event. I believe most conservation officers are reasonable. One more thing, I often see legal hunting activity that in my mind is very unethical. I try not to go there anymore. That really is not my job.
Scenario 1.
Harvesting a deer and then obtaining the tag is illegal. (This was the scenario that Stantheman started this thread with.)
Scenario 2. (this is my scenario of shooting a doe and not recovering until the next day, after another deer was tagged, and another deer was shot.)
Again, harvesting a deer and then obtaining the tag is illegal. However, this is where I would suggest that the hunter contact the local conservation officer and explain the situation. This scenario appears simple but there are several questions that an officer might ask to get to the bottom of the story. Possible solutions that an officer might consider are seizing the deer, seizing the deer and tag, issuing a citation, offering the meat to a needy family, allowing the hunter to take the deer, discussing and solving the “problem” with the hunter, and more. The added buck situation may get more involved due to the fact that, depending on the season that the hunter is hunting, often a hunter is limited in the number of bucks they can harvest(example: bow season). I would ask myself and/or the hunter what was the intent of the hunter, how much effort was put into the recovery, why did the hunter call or not call, has there been problems with the hunter in the past, was there a simple reason why the hunter did not have extra tags originally, and more.
Again, harvesting a deer and then obtaining the tag is illegal. I would then offer that an officer may use “reasonable” discretion.
I’m sure that’s as clear as mud.
Actually a common sense take on things. I was suprised by the answer to the 2nd scenario a bit, as I actuall agreed with turtl, that you should not leave it in the field.
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jclaws
PMA Member
i have a scenario as well.You are out hunting late muzzy season and you have a any deer tag and a antlerless tag in your pocket.a buck jumps up and you shoot it.when you get up to it you see that both antlers have popped off.can you put your antlerless tag on it and keep buck hunting.legally you could,you are tagging an antlerless deer.then you could add a twist.you shoot a shed antler buck and tag it with a antlerless tag. 2 days later you find the sheds and have the deer mounted.
these are two completely different scenarios ethically.i would call the co on the second scenario just to let them know what happened.just because the taxidermist would be mounting a buck with a doe tag.
I dont hunt with a muzzloader anyways but its just an interesting scenario.
these are two completely different scenarios ethically.i would call the co on the second scenario just to let them know what happened.just because the taxidermist would be mounting a buck with a doe tag.
I dont hunt with a muzzloader anyways but its just an interesting scenario.
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GregBickal
New Member
I can see shooting a button buck by accident, but shooting a spike buck on purpose and tagging it with a antlerless tag, to me thats a no no.
deeraddict
PMA Member
For your opinion in your area fine. But check the regs, it has to have a forked antler to be considerd a buck, so a spike is considered antlerless and an antlereless tag can be used. It was a crappy buck that we had on camera as nothing more than a spike for 2 years, we figured he was 3 and we wanted him out of the area. It's not like I was out whacking spikes just for fun.