For sure. Just too much politics involved with the management, sadly. Hunting has changed so much in the last 20 years, the conservation efforts need to adapt and change with it. That survey misses the mark on a lot of levels, other than raising tag prices being a no brainer IMO. But hey, it is a survey so that's a step in the right direction I guess.
Missouri Survey on Non-Resident Hunting
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Windlooker
Well-Known Member
State DNR’s across the country receive federal funding to the tune of millions of our tax dollars and they limit access?
“The Missouri Department of Conservation (MDC) receives federal funding. The MDC's funding sources include federal grants and reimbursements, as well as hunting and fishing permits, sales tax, and other income.”
Pull the federal funding then fine. Call Elon. Residents, who are first, can fund the department.
“The Missouri Department of Conservation (MDC) receives federal funding. The MDC's funding sources include federal grants and reimbursements, as well as hunting and fishing permits, sales tax, and other income.”
Pull the federal funding then fine. Call Elon. Residents, who are first, can fund the department.
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All excellent points on hot topic with huge variance of opinions.
I think the fishing one is a great point. With fishing- every state is wide open because you can manage by size + slot & throw things back. Deer on the other hand take 5 years to get to maturity.
pheasants are another one where u only shoot males, they replenish every year & there’s almost no such thing as overpopulation of pheasants. SD will let me come fish & pheasant hunt EVERY YEAR but I have to draw a deer tag. Iowa is the same way…. We have 0 limitations on fish or small game.
Take it up a level …. Animals that take even longer to mature or might be sensitive to over killing or hunting that would degrade age structure: ELK is one of many examples. Many states do manage by: county, units, etc. “You can’t hunt this area at all as a NR. You can draw a tag HERE_____ every 10 years and this area_____ every 20 years”. Is that their right to do that? I believe it is. Elk, mule deer, goats, moose, etc etc - restricted, long or no draw times possible. Major variety of limits to NR access...
Does the vast majority of the western states have it right OR do the vast majority of eastern states? Theres a stark difference between how those 2 parts of country limit NR tags. There’s only about 2-3 of those “eastern” or Midwest states that limit NR tags on whitetail. Do they have it right? I believe they do & I’d make this point…. Of all the game across the country & manangement…. The Whitetail deer has been the most mismanaged & exploited game animal of all of them. Most states have RUINED their Whitetail hunting & management. Why the serious hunters all leave the ruined places to hunt the better ones. Why does a guy from MI drive 8 hours to hunt a deer in IA or MO? More of the SAME DEER & habitat there than where he travels to…. AGE CLASS is the only reason they leave. Their states have been ravaged so they seek better. Who loses when this mass exodus happens? The places they flock to.
One honest question in this “hot topic” (I get it, sensitive one) …. Why aren’t guys going out west to get them to open up more NR hunting? IMO- they know they’d lose & many know the western states do it right. So if a midwestern state wants to copy some of the management ideas done in west, how isn’t that wise? Especially with the problems & directions the whitetail is seeing…. access, killing off age structure, lack of doe shooting in some states, massive NR leasing, resident’s #1 reason for quitting being access to quality land, etc.
CHANGE is hard. But some of these Whitetail states NEED CHANGE. The ones that need them most…. The ones folks are fleeing from, the ones with completely broken systems. I’d much rather be discussing FIXING MI, WI, MN, etc so other states wouldn’t have to debate limiting access because those guys flood their state.
& I’ll remind folks…. Im a hypocrite in a way…. I am one of those guys who fled a broken state to come to where it’s great. The last thing I wanna do or see is the mindset & steps that took place that ruined the state I fled. It’s broken in so many forms & we truly want the opposite in any other states. Wide open liberal seasons with unlimited tags, weapons & killing ruins states …. So let’s do some of the opposite.
As to MO, KS, OH, KY or IA….. none of these states would be discussing limiting NR’s if the rest of the states loaded with deer & habitat fixed their broken systems. It literally would almost shut down the exodus of hunters to the “better states”.
SIDE NOTE BOTTOM LINE: if MO just COPIED the EXACT REGS OF IA….. best state in country & MOST of their problems would be improved + the average guys hunting would be so stupidly good its mind boggling. They would destroy iowa for quality of resource & experience.
I think the fishing one is a great point. With fishing- every state is wide open because you can manage by size + slot & throw things back. Deer on the other hand take 5 years to get to maturity.
pheasants are another one where u only shoot males, they replenish every year & there’s almost no such thing as overpopulation of pheasants. SD will let me come fish & pheasant hunt EVERY YEAR but I have to draw a deer tag. Iowa is the same way…. We have 0 limitations on fish or small game.
Take it up a level …. Animals that take even longer to mature or might be sensitive to over killing or hunting that would degrade age structure: ELK is one of many examples. Many states do manage by: county, units, etc. “You can’t hunt this area at all as a NR. You can draw a tag HERE_____ every 10 years and this area_____ every 20 years”. Is that their right to do that? I believe it is. Elk, mule deer, goats, moose, etc etc - restricted, long or no draw times possible. Major variety of limits to NR access...
Does the vast majority of the western states have it right OR do the vast majority of eastern states? Theres a stark difference between how those 2 parts of country limit NR tags. There’s only about 2-3 of those “eastern” or Midwest states that limit NR tags on whitetail. Do they have it right? I believe they do & I’d make this point…. Of all the game across the country & manangement…. The Whitetail deer has been the most mismanaged & exploited game animal of all of them. Most states have RUINED their Whitetail hunting & management. Why the serious hunters all leave the ruined places to hunt the better ones. Why does a guy from MI drive 8 hours to hunt a deer in IA or MO? More of the SAME DEER & habitat there than where he travels to…. AGE CLASS is the only reason they leave. Their states have been ravaged so they seek better. Who loses when this mass exodus happens? The places they flock to.
One honest question in this “hot topic” (I get it, sensitive one) …. Why aren’t guys going out west to get them to open up more NR hunting? IMO- they know they’d lose & many know the western states do it right. So if a midwestern state wants to copy some of the management ideas done in west, how isn’t that wise? Especially with the problems & directions the whitetail is seeing…. access, killing off age structure, lack of doe shooting in some states, massive NR leasing, resident’s #1 reason for quitting being access to quality land, etc.
CHANGE is hard. But some of these Whitetail states NEED CHANGE. The ones that need them most…. The ones folks are fleeing from, the ones with completely broken systems. I’d much rather be discussing FIXING MI, WI, MN, etc so other states wouldn’t have to debate limiting access because those guys flood their state.
& I’ll remind folks…. Im a hypocrite in a way…. I am one of those guys who fled a broken state to come to where it’s great. The last thing I wanna do or see is the mindset & steps that took place that ruined the state I fled. It’s broken in so many forms & we truly want the opposite in any other states. Wide open liberal seasons with unlimited tags, weapons & killing ruins states …. So let’s do some of the opposite.
As to MO, KS, OH, KY or IA….. none of these states would be discussing limiting NR’s if the rest of the states loaded with deer & habitat fixed their broken systems. It literally would almost shut down the exodus of hunters to the “better states”.
SIDE NOTE BOTTOM LINE: if MO just COPIED the EXACT REGS OF IA….. best state in country & MOST of their problems would be improved + the average guys hunting would be so stupidly good its mind boggling. They would destroy iowa for quality of resource & experience.
Change the cost of the MO tag for NR to $500 and only give us 1 buck, not 2.
Still leave it unlimited OTC, like it is now. Don't limit when and where we can hunt.
Try that for a couple of years and see what happens. Probably would weed out the "casual" NR hunters that come down for a long weekend making it less crowded but would keep the revenue as the tag costs more. Also would have less bucks killed since we can only shoot 1
Still leave it unlimited OTC, like it is now. Don't limit when and where we can hunt.
Try that for a couple of years and see what happens. Probably would weed out the "casual" NR hunters that come down for a long weekend making it less crowded but would keep the revenue as the tag costs more. Also would have less bucks killed since we can only shoot 1
I can see both sides of the NR argument. For out west, they've limited NR so much that I've quit applying. I have always wanted to make it out there elk hunting, but it seems like wait times are ridiculously high now, so I've stopped applying. That's the negative side. I guess the positive side is, you're always welcome to go somewhere else. I'm considering Canada moose instead now. You don't like MO's regulations, go to Kansas.
Tim Tracy
New Member
I hunt out west quite a bit and that is why I took the survey and voiced my opinion in favor of going to a limited draw and increasing tag prices. With the exception of the wilderness rule in WY (outfitter welfare), I've never been locked out of public ground. As mule deer herds continue to plummet, so have tags/opportunities which is why I feel like the best way to manage pressure on the resource is to limit tags. MO is gonna do MO and rightfully so but keeping hunters off public, regardless of residency, is odd to me.
Hardwood11
It is going to be a good fall!
You have to know the market ? If they think they’ll get $600 a tag and guys will wait three years… good luck !
They have to move the gun season back 2 weeks first, and possibly go to one buck tag, so the results improve. The barrage of rifles is a concern too … NR are about 4th or 5th of concerns on their slate.
They might think they have Patrick Mahomes , but in reality they have Kirk Cousins (nice stats but few playoff win)...
They have to move the gun season back 2 weeks first, and possibly go to one buck tag, so the results improve. The barrage of rifles is a concern too … NR are about 4th or 5th of concerns on their slate.
They might think they have Patrick Mahomes , but in reality they have Kirk Cousins (nice stats but few playoff win)...
Good point on out West, and I was going to mention that too. The point creep has gotten so bad in a lot of areas that it's out of reach anymore, which isn't a good look either. But there are still some OTC areas if you try hard enough.
KS is still pretty good but a fraction of what it was. It's similar to OH in the way you can run a huge corn pile 1 month before season on a piece of trash ground that has 1 ditch in it, and suck deer out of the cover and shoot them with a crossbow. The corn feeders is out of control there.
There was talk about eliminating last year but that got shot down real fast unfortunately. If they eliminated it, even just during hunting season, KS would be a powerhouse again.
I don't think people will wait in MO, that's why I think raise the cost and leave it OTC.
Jason Sumners from the DNR was on Huntr podcast and it sounded like a hard NO on moving the gun season. I agree it would make a drastic improvement, but not likely to happen.
Tim Tracy
New Member
I may be in the minority here, but I would wait so long as I had full access to public land. Access is such a huge issue already which is why I just can't get behind limiting that in any way. I have points all over the place and I just try to put a quality hunt on the calendar every year and these are all done on the Public Land Ranch. Opportunities are drying up everywhere for deer due to all of the issues discussed on these forums which is why I just don't feel like OTC for NR's is a sustainable practice.
I don't think they should limit public access in any way, that's a real slippery slope.
Hardwood11
It is going to be a good fall!
You make good points . However, I disagree with NR being the issues . In Minnesota, fixing our state has (0) to with nonresidents! It’s not the issue.. it’s all regulations!
Minnesota moves gun season back 2 weeks, and eliminates party hunting for bucks (1 buck maximum) and we are a powerhouse in the Midwest !
Missouri would have to do this in baby steps . Move the gun season back, 1 buck limit . Then you can maybe charge a NR $300 for a tag ? I would be surprised if many guys would pay $500-600 for a tag in Missouri?
The Smokehouse in Lineville is going to miss us for their Halloween party
!
Agree 10000%!!!!!! MN, MI, PA & a few others do NOT have a NR problem with DEER. If anything… they are wishing MORE NR’s came there. & it’s not just that the NR’s don’t come there… it’s WORSE than that… the RESIDENTS are leaving!!! Or quitting. Come November in MI - the migration of thousands of MI residents leaving that state to go hunt DEER in states with better age structure is astounding. Almost all the serious guys leave.You make good points . However, I disagree with NR being the issues . In Minnesota, fixing our state has (0) to with nonresidents! It’s not the issue.. it’s all regulations!
Minnesota moves gun season back 2 weeks, and eliminates party hunting for bucks (1 buck maximum) and we are a powerhouse in the Midwest !
Missouri would have to do this in baby steps . Move the gun season back, 1 buck limit . Then you can maybe charge a NR $300 for a tag ? I would be surprised if many guys would pay $500-600 for a tag in Missouri?
The Smokehouse in Lineville is going to miss us for their Halloween party
Then u have the states the guys from the ruined states go to…. IA, OH, KY, KS, etc etc. They are overwhelmed with NR’s. So, ruined states don’t just punish the Residents…. They punish the states that have a better age class by flooding them Which, with enough time, a few bad special interest changes & pressure - will ruin those states too.
MO is quite simple…. Above was spot on!!!! 1 buck tag (not 2, that’s insanity!!!). Move the gun season out 2 weeks. Put a cap on NR’s at like 15,000…. & the cap …. It has to happen…. When you make a resource good & special but the surrounding states DO NOT fix their own systems… by definition you will see the broken states have mass exodus for the states that do it right. Every single year - KS gets more applicants. Iowa went from 1-2 year draw to 6 in my area. OH, KS, KY & MO are overwhelmed by NR’s & it’s getting worse, not better. None of this stuff is a “constant” … it’s getting worse every year. The ONLY constant, maybe, is these ruined states stay ruined. Some of them get worse …. The worse they make them- the more folks leave. The great states cannot support the demand for people flocking there - fleeing their broken states with poor age structure due to crap regulations.
I grew up in MO and continue to bow hunt there as a NR. My question to all those in favor of moving the gun season and limiting NR licenses is why? What are you trying to accomplish, bigger racks for you or better hunting for all? Moving gun season back will improve trophy’s but opportunity for the casual gun hunter not sitting over foodplots will go down and as the survey has suggested most MO hunters like hunting rut crazed bucks more than big racks coming out to food later in the season. BTW we have discussed this in the past and I, for my own selfish reasons (trophy hunting) would support it. But Missouri’s deer herd is in a completely different place than Iowa’s. Not saying changing demand and changing times doesn’t warrant changes but if we all remember back to the hunter surveys mentioned by DWGH before, the majority of the deer hunters are happy in MO. The majority of those hunters want to hunt with a rifle during the rut. Opportunity will change for those hunters if you move back the gun season. So are we doing what is best for the majority or are we trying to make Missouri a trophy state for those of us that like big racks…. Is there data out there that supports the “age class” issue is affecting the herd, haven’t saw it if there is. Overcrowding on public, likely an issue, reducing NR hunters could fix that but once again optics here look like TROPHY hunters pushing their agendas….
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Great points!!!!
MO has some HUGE issues bubbling into a disaster & I’ve talked with IA DNR & MDC folks about this. Came up when MO is hiring sharp shooters for does in N MO & also- cannot control their doe #’s. U look across the line into IA - we are shooting enough does- “too many” most would argue. This is the graph we discussed below. Cross into MO & folks stop shooting does. WHY?????….
Spent a lot of time discussing & fairly widely accepted:
1) residents (& NR’s) don’t want to ruin their RIFLE hunts blazing on does as it could ruin their chances on bucks.
2) during rut is when you see the LEAST amount of does (hiding) & bucks searching to find them.
3) NR’s & R have leased up so Much land to try to increase quality… NR’s especially do NOT shoot does. In iowa- 90-95% of NR’s don’t shoot does. Difference is- iowa has way fewer NR’s vs MO.
4) more land is staying vacant each year for leasing, pressure or control reasons where folks are only showing up for the 1 or 2 times to “get their buck”.
Iowa controls doe #’s too effectively. With a late gun season & about 95%+ of the hunters here being RESIDENTS. Our gun seasons are FANTASTIC & opportunities for everyone - it’s darn good & it’s late! I am down by that line …. Hunting tanks when you cross. It’s also outfitted, leased & NO ACCESS way worse than iowa. Age class is night & day different … MO has more deer - more does but far less bucks & age class is not comparable.
MO has way more habitat, way higher deer density. Their age class is inferior by a long shot. The access is far worse than Iowa. They can’t control doe #’s & they believe they can’t get control of the diseases due to all the problems (CWD, whether u agree or not- that’s MO position). R’s are having a fit about access. Dudes can shoot 2 bucks. So- there’s some real problems there ….. my contention is that if they mimicked Iowas regulations, ALL of their issues would be alleviated to SOME degree. The ONLY loser is “but our rifle season has always been on this date forever. So it has to stay that way”. That’s the ONLY group that loses IMHO vs all the other benefits of having common sense regulations to fix their rapidly growing problems.
While I acknowledge the poll that says majority of MO hunters happy with current rifle date, id bet the house if they changed it and ran a poll 3-4 years later an even bigger majority would vote they like the new dates.
Have seen these polls play out in state after state.
Many people are resistant to change. Human nature.
Have seen these polls play out in state after state.
Many people are resistant to change. Human nature.
Hardwood11
It is going to be a good fall!
I can speak from experience and lots of years of meetings and discussions on moving the gun season back in Minnesota.
It’s very difficult!!! Borderline impossible. Many hunters do not bow hunt and they enjoy seeing a buck chase a doe by their stands while in rut . They hunt in small groups (basically party hunting)and it’s more of a social thing, especially in Northern MN. Nothing wrong with that approach at all .
A lot of them don’t care if their buck scores 102, 122 or 142 ? They just want to shoot one.
I would love to see Minnesota & Missouri move the gun season back, but I’d bet $$ it won’t happen!
It’s very difficult!!! Borderline impossible. Many hunters do not bow hunt and they enjoy seeing a buck chase a doe by their stands while in rut . They hunt in small groups (basically party hunting)and it’s more of a social thing, especially in Northern MN. Nothing wrong with that approach at all .
A lot of them don’t care if their buck scores 102, 122 or 142 ? They just want to shoot one.
I would love to see Minnesota & Missouri move the gun season back, but I’d bet $$ it won’t happen!
Skip, of course me being me. I like a good debate. For the most part the exact problems you sited are also sited in MO. Do the NR landowners in Iowa that own ground and only hunt every 4-6 years leave, nope. Do you think limiting NR tags in MO will fix the access issue, nope, clearly an issue in IA still and based on the deer herd in MO, how many NR tags are going to be issued. Likely draw will be much easier than Iowa and therefore will have limited impact to the access issue.
In regards to Iowa’s FANTASTIC gun seasons….. I despise them and shows one reason why I don’t hunt them. Cold weather and deer on feed to bed patterns either put you in or out of the chips. MO would be the same way if you moved the gun season back, if you are setting over a nice foodplot of freshly mowed corn you will be in good shape but if not essentially could have countless goose eggs or boring sits.
I could get behind limiting NR in MO to one buck. Be interesting to see how many NR shoot multiple bucks each year.
deep woods goat hunter
PMA Member
This is a survey. I voted as I did to get the attention that something significant needs to be done. A resident first agenda needs to be adopted.
Windlooker
Well-Known Member
Several years ago PA made a major change that enraged many hunters. Most thought it would never happen but someone had the right persons ear.
The first day of PA rifle season was always the Monday after Thanksgiving. Hunters loved it. We would have Thanksgiving dinner with family and leave Friday to meet guys at camp. The weekend was spent scouting stands, drinking beer, patronizing local establishments and playing poker. Most businesses and schools were closed Monday and many Tuesday.
Well, about 6 or 7 years ago the brilliant PA Game Commission moved the first day to Saturday after Thanksgiving ruining the build up and camaraderie. Everyone hates the change. So, never say never. Right time and right person can make it happen.
The first day of PA rifle season was always the Monday after Thanksgiving. Hunters loved it. We would have Thanksgiving dinner with family and leave Friday to meet guys at camp. The weekend was spent scouting stands, drinking beer, patronizing local establishments and playing poker. Most businesses and schools were closed Monday and many Tuesday.
Well, about 6 or 7 years ago the brilliant PA Game Commission moved the first day to Saturday after Thanksgiving ruining the build up and camaraderie. Everyone hates the change. So, never say never. Right time and right person can make it happen.