Roundup Ready Corn & Soybean Food Plot

[Sligh1]

Rr

Aren't you always talking "herd management"? Which a good plan includes harvesting deer to get the numbers in balance with the habitat?

Here, you are basically stating you are giving up on the herd population side of the management plan and instead concentrating on increasing "habitat"?

Seems like a slippery slope to me. Where is it gonna end? You have limited food plot area for an ever increasing herd......

Read what I said a little closer. Absolutely I am saying shoot does and shoot lots of em. I said to shoot em in my last post. & ya- when I was referring to shooting does, herd capacity, food supply, etc- I absolutely believe u can achieve that anywhere. Getting deer to a healthy level can be done BUT getting them to a SPECIFIC point where they won't kill a bean plot- probably close to impossible for some guys.
So- if it sounded like I'm saying "give up, don't shoot does"- not what I meant and I will correct myself. Like my farm... Bigger farm- we whack and stack em each year. Yea- they move right in from the neighbors ground. I just keep shooting em. I have my land at a sustainable level. Too many deer for a few bean plots but thats different than over populated where they die off in winter or destroy all the browse. No- we kill em and kill lots of. Will continue. Point is- in areas like that- good luck on killing enough to have a good secluded bean plot with all sorts of good cover and habitat and high populations on neighbors.

And of course- the big point DT makes- having more food, better food and enhancing the cover and browse immensely. A chainsaw can work wonders at providing both in huge amounts.

 

[BuyMeOne]

Not so fast

Having few deer = poor habitat, having 30 does and 2 bucks = poor deer management....having 30 does and 20 bucks = great habitat and deer management and that is the option I prefer and I suspect most of the landowners following my threads...in which case...corn and soybeans will not be an option.

Shooting your way to the ability to grow corn and soybeans...just so one can grow them....doesn't appeal to me but thanks for sharing your thoughts on the subject....:way:

[/QUOTE]

Ok, fewer deer does not necessarily mean poor habitat. It is not that simple. I wasn't trying to condemn your ideas around the green plots...a lot of good stuff there I suppose. Might even try some myself. And your ideas around habitat and how to improve is good stuff no doubt. But let me try to make a couple points that people over look.

Habitat improvements are the #1 way to improve the overall quality of food for the deer. I think we agree on this. My point is simply this...if you can't grow say 6 acres of beans in a single plot without having them whiped out without getting pods there are too many deer. Now, it can be argued that it is impossible to get the numbers down because of neighbors or something but nevertheless that doesn't change that it sounds like way too many deer.

When you have too many deer this usually starts off by having too many does. The does do not disperse like bucks thus the doe family groups just keep adding to their numbers. As their numbers grow, it makes it less and less likely for wandering young bucks who have been displaced by their mothers to set up their home ranges on your farm. Especially their core home ranges. This makes over populated farms low on bucks and high with doe numbers. It ultimately makes them buck fawn factories who then displace their buck fawns...and won't accept any buck fawns or very few. Sure, these doe do all get bred in the fall but with so many doe it reduces the fever of the rut.

When I talked about shooting deer numbers down it wasn't just for the sake of being able to plant corn or beans. I simply stated that we could. The radical doe harvest was necessary to get the overall numbers down on our farm. This resulted in 2 very beneficial things. The first was lower overall deer numbers which meant our habitat could support the deer every year even during bad winters. A side benefit was it was easier and less expensive to plant food plots of our choosing. The second benefit was over time our farm became a net buck importer. Because our doe family group numbers were low we found that bucks set up their home ranges and cores much more frequently on our farm. Many of the mature (4+) deer we killed every year we watched year to year until they reached maturity. And the rut was usually unbelievable as the chasing and rutting leading up to actually breeding was nothing short of phenomenal. We didn't see this with the high deer numbers.

I could go on but my only concern was advocating food plot methods as a way of sort of justifying high deer densities which are not good for the herd.

 

[BuyMeOne]

In WI- I know for a fact it's much more do-able. You guys have been beyond aggressive at reducing #'s, most areas I hear about are decimated.

I think you made some good points. If you are saying you cannot plant beans for example without losing the entire crop to overgrazing because there are too many deer..especially when you try to reduce the herd but the neighbors don't; then I agree with you totally and thus my original point. There are too many deer. Now, I'm not saying I have the solution to that other than killing a lot of does, but at least it sounds like we agree that the root is too many deer. Habitat and food plots and all the ideas around the two is all good stuff. Really! I think much of the stuff on this thread is good stuff...I just had to mention that it seems like a root problem seems to be too many deer in pockets. Imagine spending hundreds or hours creating better habitat and putting in food plots that can withstand heavy grazing and then realizing a herd of 30-40 deer on 200 acres lets say. If you had two neighbors doing the same with the same acreage that would mean 90-120 deer per square mile. That is not healthy and I wouldn't want to see that herd after a long and bitter winter. In my opinion only, that is not a good way to manage deer. I do realize that we only have so much in our control.

 

[Sligh1]

BMO- I think we agree on a lot of things & splitting hairs on some things, some fairly technical discussions or disagreements. And I won't speak for DT- which you were replying to him. I do agree with some or most of your thoughts.
A few things...
"Having few deer = poor habitat" - I think DT was saying, if you can only support having few deer, that means you likely have poor habitat - I fully agree with him there. Iowa should be able to support high deer populations. I do think we agree though that Iowa VS Wisconsin are different of course- you have far more harsh winters, far less food, etc. You may see winter die-off in "average areas" not improved in WI where few areas in Iowa see that at all. Of course even in WI you can improve habitat and carry far more deer with the work, food, habitat, etc.

What is "too many deer"? I can see a field of 40 deer on my farm, pretty good ratios of bucks to does. For sure 2 to 1 or better if you think about button bucks. We shoot em up pretty good. Sure, I'm probably never going to get it quite as low as it needs to be but, very simply (more to it than this).... 1) They are not hurting habitat because of overpopulation (and everyone would agree- whack & stack if with all else being done, theres so many it's destroying browse & habitat). 2) The bucks are not "stunted" or smaller- I have fully unleashed potential and I think most folks do following something like a DT plan. 3) Most ratios in iowa are not horrible, some areas need some major killing of does to get ratios right but some not.

I really think you can have: excellent ratios, no winter die offs (almost ever because of hard winter), year round food (yes, something ALWAYS there for them to eat), excellent habitat, 30-40 deer a night sits on occasion, aggressive ruts & NOT BE ABLE TO GROW A 6 ACRE BEAN FIELD. But- seriously, I think we're splitting hairs on that one. I see where you're coming from. Everyone should do as much as they can to: help the ratios, keep populations in line for their region (WI is a tougher cookie), keep population in line with habitat availability & browse and keep a "healthy number" of deer, unique to each circumstance sometimes that aids with disease, deer accidents, crop damage, etc. No magic pill for every example out there, I think we agree. & probably what I'm doing on my land might not work for some others. I agree with a lot of your thoughts & suggestions though. Thanks for posting!!

 

[dbltree]

My point is simply this...if you can't grow say 6 acres of beans in a single plot without having them whiped out without getting pods there are too many deer.

Friend i do not wish to offend you but NOTHING could be farther from the truth! How many deer does it take to destroy a field of beans?? You can't tell me that...you only surmise that there are "to many" too many being 2? 4? 6? You assume that to wipe out a small plot there must be 60 deer but again...your assumptions are incorrect.

There is one glaring difference between your program and mine...I intentionally create outstanding habitat on every inch of my farm for the purpose of HOLDING MORE DEER!!

That said I also intentionally adapt deer to feeding in ONE PLACE 365 DAYS A YEAR you cannot and are not doing that with corn and beans. Hopefully the advantage of that adaption as a hunter should be glaringly obvious.

So...you shoot deer to fit the crops that are some of the poorest choices imaginable...again, I wish not to offend you but merely pointing out the facts.

I grow crops to fit the number of deer I manage for and that number is by no means excessive and I kill as many does as is necessary to keep a balanced doe/buck ratio...not so I can grow corn and beans!!

So...back to my question...how many deer does it take to wipe out a centrally located, well hidden feeding area planted to corn or beans???

How about 6.... that's right...6 does wiped out this field of corn by mid summer (I have an inordinate number of cams so believe me...I know)

So should I kill them down to two??? I'm sorry friend but to me....that is a very poor management plan.

My clover/brassica/rye combo mix that I plant allows me to feed roughly 30 does/fawns and 15 bucks on 3 acres, without them wiping it out. Keeping in mind that ALL of those deer do not feed there in the summer months when they are more spread out and ag crops and natural forage abound.

Those same deer would wipe out a 3 acre field of beans or corn in a week...so planting corn or beans makes no sense for me and my program. I can feed 10X as many deer on 1 acre of clover versus one acre of beans (for example) and when winter rye continues to grow all winter providing a continual food source while corn and beans are long gone...and they attract the SAME deer...plant what you wish, shoot what you will but I hope you can see why I do what I do and why advising people to shoot enough deer to grow corn and beans is terrible advice.

No one here has any business telling someone else how many deer they should or shouldn't have, so what each of you choose to manage for is up too you. The average landowner however wants to have more deer not less and it is those like minded people that I share my knowledge of how to achieve that goal.

I am not here to tell anyone what you should or shouldn't plant, or how many deer you should or shouldn't have...only how to improve your carrying capacity and the ability to hold more mature animals...and friends corn and beans are two of the poorest choices towards reaching that goal....

For more on planning your habitat program and discussion the carrying capacity I urge you to read my thread called Getting Started

 

[BuyMeOne]

To a point DT was making, I have personally seen on my bean fields 6 or more deer at one time in the summer feeding on the green leaves. Yet, in each case as little as 1.5 acres of beans have made it to podding. Does that mean that my deer are eating less per deer? No, what it does mean is that these 6+ deer have more food to eat than just my bean plots. DT stated that as little as 6 deer can wipe out this food plot...although possible that wouldn't be practical unless that is either all they had to eat (because of poor habitat) or there are actually far more than just the 6 deer. I can come to this conclusion because it is not rare to find 6+ deer eating at a time on my bean food plots. So obviously I have at least that many deer, in fact there are more, so there must be other factors involved. I am simply choosing to believe that the issue is too many deer based on my experiences. Too many deer is a relative observation or number and is based on opinion---I'll give that. But to somehow imply or state that planting beans is no longer practical because of them getting mowed down is only half the story.

One important thing to also understand is unlike doe family groups which will stay local if possible and feed entirely on food available without wandering, bucks tend to have larger home ranges. That is not to say their cores are not small especially as they mature. Why is this important when talking about food plots...because I would also argue that soybeans can draw or bring bucks out of their core with much more success than green plots can during the late November and into December time frames. Again, this is just my observation having planted both. And a farm loaded up with doe family groups tend to not have (or at least less) buck core areas on them...again just an observation.

If what people are taking from my posts is that you should shoot a bunch of deer for the sole purpose of being able to plant beans or corn, then either I have not explained myself or something else. I am simply stating that in my experience once I have done proper habitat improvements (which are almost never ending) and have kept the population in check my food plot options don't start and end with green plots. I still have the option by choice of putting in beans and corn. Personally I don't plant corn anymore, I was just stating that with good habitat and proper deer numbers the choices become bigger. The other and almost more important issue for me has always been buck fawn displacement on farms with high deer numbers and the resulting impacts this has on herd dynamics especially things like how the rut is played out on a farm. By all means, if a hunter or group wants high numbers of deer that is their choice but the effects are not all positive.

So...I have seen farms with very high populations loaded up with doe family groups and very few bucks especially bucks calling the farm its core. Lower populations and proper ratios then solve this problem of buck dispersion...and a soybean field can then fill a void in late season bringing in bucks that don't normally make your farm their core. In fact it is possible for our group to each year harvest mature bucks during the late season that we haven't seen all fall and not affect the "local" buck population, made possible I believe by our beans. I haven't seen that with green plots in late season

So I'm at work and my friend is talking about planting very small soybean plots of a quarter acre or so and was looking into electric fencing so that he could release the plots well into October. I never heard of electric fencing food plots before so we talked for a while then I do a search on google and it leads me to this forum. I spent days and days in my free time reading through the posts to find the stuff very interesting and useful. One thing I kept thinking over and over is how to me I had experienced the same decimation of soybean plots in the past too....and that only after we did massive doe harvests to reduce the deer herd and to address the effects of buck fawn dispersal did we get a side affect of being able to plant whatever food plot we wanted to. We did not go into the process of doe harvests for the purpose of being able to plant soybeans, we did it for sound management reasons.

So I make the mistake of trying to put out some of those management ideas on this forum. I signed up, made a couple points only to find myself getting bashed for seemingly having an opinion and trying to help other hunters. I do in fact know what I am talking about...regardless of what someone wants to say. I do in fact also realize that when it comes to hunting people can be very sensitive. Opinions are not facts, and all situations are different. But I start and end with my opinion that to me not being able to have 6 acres of beans reach the podding stage is a symptom of very high deer numbers...and also my opinion that it is an unhealthy level. I don't say this to get on anyone's nerves but only in an effort to help others. I've been in the situation of starting on a pretty good sized farm that was in an area of very high deer numbers. Through massive does harvests, habitat improvements, and food plots panted as supplements and hunting reasons, we turned the farm into a mecca of whitetailed deer hunting. I had no idea that putting out my opinions was going to be stepping into someone else's world.

I know Grant Woods has written a book on management which contains the information I am talking about relating to buck fawn dispersal but I don't know the name of it. I pasted a link I found real quick that talks about it below.

If we choose to box ourselves in and defend our positions without even exploring others opinions that is fine. I didn't do that but only offered the idea that high deer levels have negative impacts and tried to touch on the reasons why. If you disagree so be it. In a very selfish way the more hunter-landowners who ignore buck dispersal and instead run high deer numbers on their farms the better the chance I will one day be a close neighbor and take advantage of the bucks you disperse onto my land. Thank you.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/A+heavy+dose+of+does.-a0149548584

 

[dbltree]

Corn and soybeans

I share many reasons why for most landowners, corn and soybeans are not the best option for a variety of reasons but that said, I want to be clear that if you have questions about either subject of any kind..please ask and I'll do my best to answer your questions.

Secondly if you have pictures of your crops I'd love to share them in this thread, so please post them or send me pics and I'll post for you.

Email dbltree2000@yahoo.com

Why not corn and soybeans?

I used to grow both, mostly because the farmer in me enjoyed growing them and it was something I took great pride in, but I also mistakenly believed that I needed to grow them to compete with neighboring crop fields. Over nearly two decades I learned (mostly the hard way) that there were far better options.

One common misconception is that if you can't grow these crops (due to deer depredation) that you have too many deer and of course in some cases that may be true. The problem however is that neither corn nor soybeans are adapted to grazing...after all how many farmers do you see running cattle in either one? When either of these crops are small, they are readily and easily devoured by even relatively small numbers of deer and this is exacerbated by the fact that we create thick bedding areas adjacent to hidden feeding areas...as they should be. Deer then focus on the young, green crops and quickly wipe them out.

Since the object to creating outstanding habitat is to hold more deer it is a no brainer that as we do so, these crops become impossible to grow. Since deer numbers and habitat vary widely and every landowner may have very different goals regarding the number of deer, let's focus on something almost every landowner would agree on...

Mature Bucks

Let's assume for now that we all agree that regardless of the size of the deer herd using our property...we all would like to hold more mature bucks (4 1/2 and older) When bucks get older they prefer solitude and will often go to great length's to stay away from the doe groups until the rut. This is where cover is the single most important element of our habitat program and the more cover we have then more/better chances of holding mature bucks.

But I have plenty of open fields so I can grow lot's of crops including corn and beans

The problem with that is mature bucks don't live in those open crop fields...the do however love fields of native warm season grass. Every acre we have in anything other then cover then becomes a liability, a limiting factor in our ability to hold mature bucks. Every acre in native grass is a plus....every acre in food sources...a negative.

God created deer to be browsers, not grazers so planted food sources are not a requirement for their survival, they are merely a tool beneficial in helping us achieve our hunting, habitat and management goals. Whitetails are opportunistic and will readily take advantage of almost any edible food sources, including freshly harvested ag crops so having a combination of high yielding crops that provide food sources year around can help us meet those goals.

Corn and beans are easily decimated when green and growing and should they survive, don't have the ability to feed very many deer for very long which requires of course that we plant more acres...in effect stealing acres of cover to grow more grain.

Crops like clover and cereal grains such as winter rye can tolerate very heavy grazing and unlike grain crops, they continue to re-grow. Corn and beans steal from our soils while crops like rye, peas, radish, clover, turnips and rape....do just the opposite, when properly rotated they can be self sufficient and eventually requiring no added synthetic (expensive) fertilizers and herbicides.

Corn and beans feed deer for only a short time period out of the year making it impossible to adapt deer to feeding in one place every day and that makes no sense as hunters. The combination of clover, rye and brassicas can feed deer year around, adapting them to feeding in one place every day, 365 days a year...that makes all kind of sense from a hunting perspective.

But I want to "pull" deer from miles around

Good luck with that...only in northern areas with deep snow and thousands of acres forest do deer "move" to thermal cover and take advantage of crops in large numbers. In those cases they will readily dig thru snow for turnips as soybeans I might add.
In most of the Midwest however whitetails will rarely move far from their home range (other then the rut) and will take advantage of browse, ag crops and whatever they can scavenge before traveling far from their safe bedding area.

Cold weather is a whitetails cue to get some fat put on, their means of surviving difficult winter conditions when food might be scarce so they will congregate near any available food source be it acorns, ag crops or planted food sources. That puts even more pressure on a feeding area and even a few deer can quickly decimate grain crops...green forage crops can handle much more grazing and it is nearly impossible to "wipe out" winter rye.

Our goal should be to provide plentiful natural browse and forbs via our timber and NWSG resources which serve as both bedding and food sources and it is those resources that will "hold" mature deer and allow us to actively manage those deer. Planting grain crops is a lesson in futility towards that end....they are a temporary food source at best and while deer certainly will take advantage of them they will do absolutely nothing to helps us hold and manage mature bucks.

I want food sources that I can hunt over in the late season

Season after season I have watched a field full of deer including 10-15 bucks that hungrily fed on clover, rye and brassicas and ignored the wide open crop fields across the fence. On top of that, those bucks stayed there...safely on my property because they never ran out of feed as they would have with corn or beans. Create a safe, hidden feeding area, surround it with premium bedding and they won't leave and when the snow flies and the bitter late winter winds blow...they'll be out before dark...feasting on the green food sources they are adapted to counting on.

Maximize your habitat by creating the most/best cover possible...stop planting ANY food sources and those deer will still be there...point being put the emphasis on the cover first and then plant food sources that yield the most forage, on the smallest number of acres.

Lastly...if you want grain crops for upland birds and whitetails...plant milo/grain sorghum especially the high tannin red seeded varieties...deer will rarely eat the green growing plants and neither deer nor birds will eat the until they freeze.

Choose whatever crop or management you wish but the facts are that for most landowners growing grain crops is not only unnecessary it in effect steals from your cover base that is crucial in holding mature whitetails....

 

[BuyMeOne]

Forage Tons

Just some simple math on late season tonnage available for deer. Assuming that all crops make it to maturity (I know there is debate on this) but for me I know that by keeping my herd in check, I will have beans and corn if I choose for the late November and December months. After that if my traditional crops have been eaten up I also have other crops for the late winter (mainly brassicas). But just to discuss total tonnage of forage available lets do some simple math that a farmer would do. I am most familiar with dairy so fall planted rye harvested as feed fits this discussion.

Assuming 60 bushel beans, 150 bushel corn, the resulting available fall tonnage would be 3000lbs/acre and 8400lbs/acre respectively. The corn can and will provide some summer grazing but this will reduce the fall yield. The beans yielding 60 bushels also provide amounts of summer forage not in this calculation.

Now winter rye, planted about mid September will yield about 2000lbs/acre through mid December (the yield goes up to maybe 2500lbs/acre if harvested in March). After this point, although it will still remain green and can grow albeit very slowly producing very little tonnage after that until spring. Looking at just the 3 choices, which ones offer the most food for the deer? If the beans and corn are gone by mid December for example they still provided their available tonnage through this time frame. That is where another food source like brassicas or rye can kick in and carry a burden for the remainder of the winter. If rye, brassicas, or other green plots alone had more tonnage you would not see farmers (especially dairy farmers who feed everything back to their animals) plant corn and beans. They do this because of the yield per acre outcomes. Beans and Corn provide more tonnage.

The reason corn and beans are all gobbled up earlier than rye for example is a deer's preference for them. If this were not the case, based on available tonnage, the rye would be gone first before the corn or beans.

Of course producing exceptional habitat will give the most available tonnage of food, the best cover, etc. and should be the first and foremost thought when managing your ground. But if supplementing natural habitat food sources based on available tonnage, beans and corn provide a lot. Bean yields can be higher or lower than the 60 bushels, if deer eat them more in the summer the fall yield will go down but don't forget that those tons have still been eaten by the deer. Over seeding beans in early fall with brassicas or rye can increase available tonnage. Having other spring and summer plots like clover or alfalfa can give deer variety and good sources of food during this time. But deer generally don't need extra hunter planted food in summer months...thus late fall and winter are very important if we are going to create man made food sources. Unless my math is wrong beans and corn do provide a great deal of tonnage per acre, more so than rye for example. And based strictly on what gets eaten first or depleted first, I would say that they are more attractive.

 

[dbltree]

60 bushel bans and 150 bushel corn

You have already admitted that you don't grow corn so obviously have no experience or you would know that in most food plot situations that figure is entirely unrealistic. What the deer don't destroy, the coons and squirrels will in most cases there will be little if anything left by Oct 1st.

By your own admission your own deer decimated your beans leaving you with perhaps 10-15 bushel per acre...

I manage just under 3000 acres for landowners. all who have tried corn and beans and now we use the green forage rotation...so far this year they have killed (3) 170-180" bucks, (2) 155s, (2) 5 1/2 yr old management bucks, a 4 and a 3 and they are not done hunting. Not one of those people would waste their time and money on corn or beans which have proven ineffective on every farm....nuff said about the mature buck subject and any questions about what they like....

I milked 130 cows for a living ran 100 brood cows and 350 stockers....90% of what was fed was green forage in the form of pasture and alfalfa. I know forage and other then feedlot situations livestock men do not feed corn and soybeans. Your calculations are grossly inaccurate for forage as we can produce easily up to 3 to 5 ton per acre (up to 10 ton possible with brassicas with 18 to 22 percent protein and 62 to 77 percent in vitro dry matter digestibility )and the figures for corn and beans are worthless if it doesn't make it to fall which you fail to take into account. Cattlemen do no graze corn and beans because they waste it and...they can not easily digest it and deer are no different

You also fail to mention that both corn and soybeans can fail miserably in drought years while the rye/brassica combination performed incredibly well during this years extreme drought

The green forage has higher crude protein and TDN (total digestible nutrients)

Winter rye is 14% CP, clover 25% while corn 2-3%, unprocessed raw soybeans 11

We already have a very very effective program that is producing awesome results so I get the feeling you are trying to rationalize your program...if your happy with it then heck, keep doing it...but it's not for me nor the people who employee me. We are feeding more deer on less acres, year around with lower inputs and killing giants to boot....and we would want to change that why??? You seem intent on dumbing us down to your level apparently to justify your own actions ignoring everything I have said (for which I have provided pictorial facts/proof) just for the sake of argument. These are teaching threads designed to help others enhance their habitat and while I welcome comments and thoughts from everyone, I will also not allow anyone to destroy the integrity of these threads with inane, inaccurate, misleading and argumentative posts.

Have a Merry Christmas and best wishes for the New year....:way:

 

[paulie]

Well said dbtree! Merry Christmas

 

[droptine37]

By all means this part of Iowa Whitetail is DBLTrees world. If this type of conversation isn't well taken then I apologize for jumping into it but I really feel like I have learned quite a bit from this discussion. I will start by saying over the last 4 years we have followed Dbltrees advice from top to bottom(habitat, conservation, food plots, etc....) We have had many trials and tribulations but are very happy with the results our property has seen.

With that said I will have to admit I was almost blindsided about a year or so ago when I read in a post that Dbltree stated he wouldnt be including beans or corn in his food plots anymore. As soon as I read it I called my best friend and food plot guru in disbelief on what I had just read. We were both amazed at this abrubt change of heart. Since that time I have just sat back and read trying to learn and understand this new course. By all means I can see and even understand the logic but I will have to say the idea of eliminating beans and corn from our rotations wouldnt be beneficial on our property.

I have spent the last year reading and soaking up everything I can get on this radish, pea, turnip, rye mix that seems to bethe answer for so many people. This will be the 3rd year we have included about 30% of our acres to it. With that said I am 100% committed to it as a part of our food plots but by no means from what we have seen can it take the place of our beans and corn. For whatever reasons the deer on our property just wont touch the fall mix. They will feed on rye thats planted alone and our alfalfa plot gets hammered but the fall mix just havent produced yet. The more time I spend on forums the more I hear mixed results on deer feeding on the fall mix.

Before someone says its a habitat problem let me say we have 53 acres of warm season grasses surrounding the plots and have hinge cut a tangled mess of about 10 acres right next to our plots. We will be working for the rest of my life constantly improving the habitat but I would say our property as is today would be considered very good deer habitat. We also have high deer numbers on our property. I am in the group that enjoys high deer numbers but understand its important to keep the does in check so we can enjoy a productive rut and healthy herd and habitat.

I guess my reason for jumping in this discussion is because some of the things buymeone is bringing up about beans and corn are things we have seen on our property. What is the answer for a property where deer will not touch brassicas if you abandone beans and corn? I also agree with him on the drawing power of beans and corn in November-February. I believe if you have a property near a forest preserve or some other type of sanctuary that you need to draw deer out of that theres no better answer than beans and corn. I will admit we have had severe browse pressure in our corn and bean plots but they have always still produced a decent crop even with an extreme drought this year. I also dont mind knowing they are being browsed early because it lets me know that the deer love those plots. What I do get frustrated with is having a salad bar looking fall mix plot that not one deer seems interested in.

Like I said this isn't a shot at anyone but this is a real situation on our property. We have a solid 3 years of observations to support what I am seeing. I would think others out there have similar experiences and might have some ideas for us that we havent thought of. I think this discussion could and should continue and we could all learn a lot about what others are experiencing. My two cents is that a balance of all of the above is your best bet for your food plot choices. To turn completely away from beans and corn just wouldnt make sense on our place but if the deer thought differently about our brassicas I could see where I might reconsider.

 

[dbltree]

Droptine...just to address your thoughts on grain crops...1st, if you can grow them and you enjoy them, certainly keep doing it. If however you read the other threads you would notice that deer would not touch my brassicas either...until I took the corn and beans away...from that point on they devour the brassicas readily.

This is a common thing that many landowners see when planting brassicas with grain crops, deer are adapted to the grain and as long as there is plenty of it...why eat anything else. Most landowners get nervous about the idea of abandoning something and taking a risk on something else...hey...I know that feeling!

Keep in mind that in my posts I share why I have found the other forage crops to be a better overall choice, but I have many friends who plant the forage combos and soybeans as well. By no means do I consider there choices wrong....it's their land and what they or you choose to do with it is completely your/their choice.

Since I make my living building habitat and understanding whitetail behavior I am privy to a great deal of information that the average individual landowner is not. In every case where we have switched from grains to greens (so to speak) we have had outstanding success.

We planted the rye/brassica rotation...field full of deer, tried switching to brassica/soybeans...same deer, same bucks, switched back to rye/brassica...same deer, same bucks. So you see I have personally tested this not on just my farm but other farms all with the same results.

As always I encourage landowners to do what they feel is right for them and their property but for those people looking to tweak their operation and increase the ability to hold and harvest mature bucks...their are better options.

Another way to look at this is from a human perspective...if you eat Cheerios every morning for years and suddenly you are offered granola...you probably will just ignore the granola and eat what you are used to.

Take the Cheerios away however and now your interest is in granola is piqued...upon trying it "heyyy...good stuff"

The thing everyone fails to understand is that deer have a very small range and other then the rut or severe winter/heavy snow situations...they will not leave it. That means they will take advantage of ANY and ALL food sources available to them within that home area. Leave them a field of corn....they will eat it, but take the corn away and they will quickly adapt to "granola"....

No one should take from any of this that I think you (meaning anyone reading this) are an idiot for growing grain crops but again, if you are looking for a way to convert more acres to cover and grow more food on less acres then the forage crops are a better option

Even if deer numbers are low and you can grow corn and beans....you can feed the same number of deer year around on less acres and the acres that were in crops can then be converted to cover

You see friends the biggest mistake made is making it about the food and if it's your goal is to hold mature bucks...it's about COVER

There are no corn nor beans in Saskatchewan yet they grow giant deer and they live as God intended eating and living in COVER

As previously mentioned...if you have questions about growing corn and/or soybeans please ask..I will do everything I can to help you grow the best crops possible.

If you would like to share pictures of your crops...we would love to see them

If you feel corn and soybeans are right for you...great, don't change a thing.

If however you think corn and beans are necessary or right for everyone I will counter that idea with proof that they are not and there are better options....and that has nothing to do with deer numbers, fawn dispersal etc....all subjects irrelevant to the fact that I can show people how to grow more feed on less acres and create more cover to hold mature bucks.

A neighbor and family just killed 3 mature bucks this shotgun season...all on one brassica patch, all within a few hundred yards of corn and soybeans...:way:

As the old saying goes...there is more then one way to skin a cat and more then one way to create great habitat. if I felt corn and beans were not an option I would delete this entire thread but obviously I do not feel that way, nor do i wish to convey that message.A few key points to keep in mind for those reading this discussion..

1) We can produce more high quality dry matter/forage/tons per acre with clover/brassica/rye combo then with grains

2) We can feed deer year around with the forage option thereby adapting them to coming to one place, 365 days a year

3) Take corn and beans away and deer will quickly adapt to new foods sources.

4) Acres not in crops can be converted to native warm season grass...a favorite nature buck bedding area

Another thing to keep in mind is that every farm is unique and each landowner has different goals. Perhaps you love to grown corn and beans simply because like me...you enjoy doing so!

Perhaps you love to see 50 deer in your fields, perhaps you enjoy wildlife in general and harvesting a mature buck is just not that important.

All of those thing are ok, it's cool...be you own man/woman and manage your farm and wildlife to suit you, not what anyone else thinks you should do.

In my job, nearly every landowner has one major common goal and that is to hold and harvest mature bucks. When I do consultations, thus far...to a man they also have that common goal so I am geared towards that end. Maximizing cover, growing high yielding crops on as few acres as possible and enhancing every acre for the sole purpose of holding and harvesting mature bucks...so my posts tend to assume that common goal here, so take from my information what will work for you but don't ever feel threatened because it may differ from my goals.

If you read my threads carefully you'll also note that I have shared year around food source/crop rotations that include soybeans and or/milo...something for everyone but it is the concept of providing year around food sources that I feel is most important.

If you fail at this, you may fail to hold mature animals who will drift to areas that have food in February and March and not return. (such as my place :way

Friends....my mission here is to help you reach your habitat goals, whatever they may be including growing corn and beans. Any discussion or questions on building better habitat is welcome by all.

If however you have thoughts and opinions on managing deer numbers etc, please share those in the Whitetail Management forum....further non-relevant discussion will be removed :way:

 

[Sligh1]

Ya, sorry DT- some PM's or seperate threads better on that one. Great info as always on all the habitat stuff!

*&, BTW- warm years, like this year, has me wishing I had even more green plots (I still have a lot) vs beans. But, the cold years with lots of snow, I sure am thankful I still have my bean plots.

 

[dbltree]

If you are 100% satisfied with your habitat and whitetail program, regardless of what it entails I certainly would be reluctant to rock the boat if I were you! Most of the people reading my threads however are not, they either have encountered problems or have not reached their goals, whatever they may be. It is for those people that I share what I have learned to help them overcome problems and challenges be it dealing with poor soils or to reach a goal of more mature buck encounters.

Corn and beans are not the best option for many if not most people for a wide variety of reasons, many that are often overlooked but a common problem is that landowners may have limited acres to devote to food sources. Ag land here in Iowa may rent for anywhere from 150-400 an acre and that is likely to go up, so food plots tend to be on mediocre soils and with the least area possible devoted to them and that means that even with reasonable deer numbers, those deer can quickly decimate grain crops.

I have overcome that by using a combination of forage crops and across the country, others are also finding them very very successful as well. The following is a note or success story if you will that might give encouragement to others debating on making the leap if you will...away from grain crops to forage crops.....

Paul,

Thought I'd share couple pics of one of our plots located in central Iowa. ***** county to be exact. 160 acre farm with 1/2 being farmed and rest hunting ground. We have a 300 acre farm in ****** county southeast of **** and have tried to grow corn/beans and every year they get wiped out before mid November. We late season black powder hunt and were very frustrated until we started planting your recommendations. With the brassica/rye/clover plots we have food plots to hold deer all season. We also plant the rye mix and lots of white clover. Love it! During bow season, the fields are packed with deer and you know as well as I do that where the girls are the boys will follow. The **** farm has low numbers so we are able to plant corn/beans in combination with the rye mix. Although during the bow season the deer can't get enough of the rye mix. Wonderful combination. Just wanted to say "thanks" for your help and advice. Your advice has enabled us to see/hold/attract more deer and our mature buck harvest has greatly improved.

Thank you,

Ryan

Ryan's situation is very typical of what I deal with on the farms I manage, most of which have large amounts of ag crops via rented ground or being custom farmed. Several have or still do leave some areas of either corn or beans standing, expensive but productive of course, but they almost always have those acres decimated within weeks. Those landowners I might add have a very active herd control management program and doe harvest.

In every case deer on those farms with corn, beans and alfalfa all steps away from there bedding areas, graze the forage crops to the ground first. Because we plant a combination of year around food sources in the feeding areas, deer are adapted to coming there first, then working their way out to harvested crop fields or alfalfa fields.

The forage crop combination then can compliment ag grain crops or be included as part of a forage/grain combination such as mentioned on one farm above.

The key point I hope everyone understands is that you have many options and that you don't have to plant grain crops to hold and harvest deer and in fact there are better options. If you are dissatisfied or frustrated with your current program, consider either adding or changing too...the following forage crop mix. You''ll find it more productive, higher yielding, better for your soils and much less expensive to plant not to mention largely drought resistant...

Plant ALL in one plot in strips or blocks

Alice, Kopu II, Durana (or comparable) white clover 10% of plot, sow at 6#'s per acre with the rye combination in the fall or in the spring with oats and berseem clover. Correct Ph and P&K with soil tests

Brassicas in 45% of plot

Purple Top Turnips 3#
Dwarf Essex Rape 2#
GroundHog Forage radish 5#

Plant in mid to late July in most Midwest states, or 60-90 days before your first killing frost, Use 200#'s of 46-0-0 urea and 400#'s of 6-28-28 per acre. Follow the dead brassicas with oats and berseem or crimson clover in mid spring at 60#'s oats and 12-15#'s berseem clover and/or 50#'s of chickling vetch)

Cereal Grain combo in 45% of plot

Winter rye 50-80#'s per acre (56#'s = a bushel)
Spring oats 80-120#'s per acre (32#'s = a bushel)
Austrian Winter Peas or 4010/6040 Forage peas 20-80#'s per acre
Red Clover 8-12#'s per acre or white clover at 6#'s per acre (or 20-40 pounds hairy vetch and 20-30#'s crimson clover on sandy soils)
Groundhog Forage Radish 5#'s per acre

Plant in late August to early September, if following well fertilized brassicas use 100 - 200#'s of urea, if starting a new plot add 400#'s of 6-28-28

Rotate the brassicas and rye combo each year

 

[dbltree]

“This April has been the wettest we have seen in the 141 years of weather records compiled by the Iowa State Climatologist, and the result has been a very slow start to the planting season.”

We did manage to get a dozen acres of RR beans in for one landowner but just received another 3.5" of rain and the forecast is for more rainy days then sunny!

Getting a good crop of corn or beans in can sometimes be challenging and frustrating which is another reason we prefer the summer/fall plant crops.

Plenty of time to get both corn and beans in however...plant corn at 24,000 to 32,000 seeds per acre depending on soils and fertility and soybeans at 120,000 to 220000 seeds per acre, usually depending on deer grazing pressure.

We like planting beans for landowners, cause....we usually get paid a second time to re-plant the rye mix in the fall....

 

[dbltree]

June 7th, 2013

While we don't normally include soybeans in our habitat management plans, if asked...we are more then happy to plant them! In this case...a sacrifice plot so to speak next to an adjoining/competing landowner, knowing deer will wipe them out by early in the season and then focus on brassica/rye combo plots further "inland"....



We sprayed with 1 quart of glyphosate and then notill planted RR beans at roughly 220,000 seeds per acre (140,000 closer to normal rates)



Non stop rains and saturated soils take their toll in many areas, and then...deer finish off what is left!



As with everything there are pros and cons to planting soybeans for whitetails and one negative is that any spring plantings can be fraught with frustrating problems due to weather. It's often difficult to make plans to plant and then rain thwarts best efforts while summer/fall plantings rarely encounter weather related problems.

Contrary to popular thought....deer will eat almost anything, especially when the food source is planted next to premium cover, so soybeans are not necessary to "attract" deer and often we have noticed that deer preferred lush brassicas and cereals when given side by side options that included soybeans.

If soybeans seem right for you, plant 140,000 to 220,000 seeds per acre (rates depending on deer density ) and roughly 1" deep, soil test first but soybeans often require P/K and lime and can remove 60-120# of each per year depending on growth/yields



Soybeans can be broadcast on tilled soil and lightly tilled/disced/harrowed in and cultipacked to firm seedbed but when a notill drill or planter is available...that is usually the preferred method!

Check with NWTF, PF, QDMA chapters along with your state DNR because in the midwest free year old seed is often available and germination is usually very near normal.

Soybeans are easily decimated when young and they don't last long when cold weather hits so keep those things in mind when choosing food source options for your management plan...

 

[letemgrow]

Even if deer numbers are low and you can grow corn and beans....you can feed the same number of deer year around on less acres and the acres that were in crops can then be converted to cover

You see friends the biggest mistake made is making it about the food and if it's your goal is to hold mature bucks...it's about COVER

Cover, cover, cover. That is the job #1 for having great whitetail habitat. You have said it before Paul...they will eat the best available on where they feel safe doing so. Crops work, but so can many other things that are easier to grow and have less input costs for the food portion....

 

[dbltree]

July 4th, 2013

Time to spray the RR soybeans and I'm often asked if one should add crop oil to the gly and my answer is no as crop oil can severely burn RR beans and corn



They will recover but if tough gly resistant weeds are present then there are other alternatives to add to the gly, we use 1 quart 53% glyphosate but 2 quarts 41% might be needed depending on weed size and species



I'm not a fan of herbicides of any kind but they are a necessary evil with corn and beans unless you row plant and cultivate which can work very well and there plenty of old 2 or 4 row cultivators laying in the weeds at farmsteads across the country.

The beans shown were sprayed before planting and spraying now should allow them to canopy and remain reasonably weed free from then on but be aware that once the weeds are gone deer may begin to quickly decimate the "clean" beans. A mix of oats and annual clovers along side/around these beans has helped protect them.

Happy 237th birthday America! :way:

 

[dbltree]

Soybeans in Winter Rye

Some great examples of the advantages of no-till planting soybeans into winter rye....beans were drilled into standing (not killed) winter rye...



Due to wet spring, soil was borderline to wet at planting but note lack of weeds



Again, due to wet weather beans didn't get sprayed until nearly a month after planting which allowed for an explosion of weeds which set back beans in areas of same field without rye. Weeds have been sprayed but note stark difference in amount of weeds compared to rye



Rye can also be rolled flat to act as a great mulch much like the tractor tire did here making it possible in some cases to skip herbicide altogether



This rye was mowed which did allow the soil to dry out faster but of course that can also be a negative



Winter rye provides fantastic, all winter long forage that averages higher CP then other winter cereals but also is the King of Cover Crops building organic matter, scavenging subsoil nutrients and providing weed control thanks to allelopathic chemicals in it's root systems.



Easily broadcast into corn, beans or milo or planted as part of your crop/plot rotation so consider how you can incorporate winter rye into your program... :way:

 

[HorseDoctor]

In past years, I have planted a couple acres of soybeans primarily as a place for my wife to hunt over during late muzzy season (heated tower blind etc...) There have always been a few hundred acres of additional beans on adjacent farms that have spread the early season grazing out so I never really had much problem getting a fair stand of mature beans. Then when the neighbors crops were harvested & the weather turned cold, my little 2 acre plot became a VERY popular dining spot (and my wife has shot some very decent bucks off of it). My problem this year is that the neighboring fields are either all in corn or did not get planted at all so mine are the only beans in the area and the deer are keeping them mowed to about 6". I have very little hope they will every set pods and I've got to keep the wife happy. She complains much less about my deer hunting when I keep deer in front of her stand too. Currently the field is bordered by a 50' wide strip of white clover. Would I be better off to broadcast winter rye into the beans as another source of green feed or should I disc up the beans & get some brassicas & turnips in the ground? Or some of both?