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Tree Planting

On a brighter subject... :)

This is one of Skips persimmon seedlings...something I'm still working on as so far I have not had a persimmon bud out or come up from seed.

Persimmon.jpg


Persimmons thus far have remained a challenge for me so I may try some potted seedlings from Red Fern Farm

I still had persimmons popping up in July from the seeds I planted. Make sure to check them again before you give up on them. I imagine if they pass thru an animal they germinate much faster. :D
 
My one concern is if I go ahead and spray now, the spots where acorns or seedlings will be put in the fall. What happens if I mix the soil in the hole that had the oust sprayed on it?? Is that good bad or in different?? I figured that would harm the roots and the oust needs to stay on the top correct??

It's common to spray Oust ahead of a spring seedling planting knowing that an additional application we'll need to be applied after planting as well.

I am not sure about effects on acorns but I know that Oust is also commonly used on direct seeded acorn seedings so I am assuming it is not a problem.

I guess I'm going to have to do some tests and have better answers to these questions Phil...;)
 
I am not sure about effects on acorns but I know that Oust is also commonly used on direct seeded acorn seedings so I am assuming it is not a problem.

I guess I'm going to have to do some tests and have better answers to these questions Phil...;)


I will run the test too and we can share data :D
 
Whoooowooo! I found a live one! One of the persimmon seedlings that Skip gave me is alive...sweet!

LivepersimmonSeedling.jpg


This is from Red Fern Farms in eastern Iowa

<TABLE style="BORDER-RIGHT-WIDTH: 0px; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse; BORDER-TOP-WIDTH: 0px; BORDER-BOTTOM-WIDTH: 0px; BORDER-LEFT-WIDTH: 0px" border=1 cellSpacing=0 borderColor=#111111 cellPadding=0 width="105%" height=291><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none" height=39 vAlign=bottom width="100%" colSpan=2>American Persimmon (Disospiros virginiana) </TD></TR><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none" height=28 vAlign=top width="54%">The American Persimmon is native to about the southeast 1/2 of the United States. They are hardy to about –30°F. The trees produce abundant crops of 1” - 2” diameter fruits, but only on female trees. Seedlings can not be sexed until they reach about 4’ to 5’ tall (about 3 to 4 years old). The fruits are among the sweetest in the world, and inspired the scientific name for the tree which means “food for the gods”. We have seedlings of superior grafted varieties, including 'Yates', 'Prok', and 'Osage'.
6 - 8 inches tall in 1 gallon pots $5.00 each


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I hope they tolerate more cold then 30 degrees!

This link says zone 5-9 American Persimmon

Okios Tree Crops - American Persimmon also carries them and they are surviving in MI although much of MI is zone 6 and much of IA in zone 5.

This is kind of interesting...

A favorite of deer, persimmons are a strong attractant and will bring them in quantity to your property even in the dead of winter. Deer rarely browse seedling trees since the foliage is poisonous to them.

Willis Orchard - American Persimmon
 
Anyone know the ripening dates for any Persimmon's in IA? Kinda interesting the deer won't destroy them...or eat them I should say. They'd probably still rub and shred them to death you think?
 
Yeah deer will rub them and like all trees, persimmons will vary in size and drop times. I planted 3 in my grandparents garden and luckily 2 are female trees and one was male. One of the female trees has a lot of small persimmons and the other seems to have fewer, larger ones. Not sure if that is from a pollination issue or genetics.

Once persimmons ripen they will be 30% sugar and the deer do love them. One night when I was picking them off the tree to plant at my farm, a deer was coming in to take some off the tree and got within 40 yards of me before the doe noticed the tree was already occupied. Looked like hogs were in there from all the deer tracks under that tree.
 
I had fair luck with persimmon seeds this year...I had several that did not come up but some look very very good.

Persimmons-1.jpg
 
Has anyone tried transplanting persimmon suckers?

I don't believe we have native persimmons around here. I read a local article several years about persimmons and about them being rare around here. It said there was a big persimmon tree planted on the corner of a town (about 2 miles away), back in the 40s. But in the 60's the whole town was demolished.

But being familiar with the townsite, I went down there this Spring, looking at all the now very mature & overgrown trees that used to line the Streets & yards. I found what I believe is the Persimmon tree I read about, right on the SW corner of where the town used to be & article said. It has suckers coming up all around it. I thought I would try digging up a few this fall and transplanting them. I'll have to take a picture & post it here.. just to make sure it is indeed a persimmon.
 
I have not tried planting any, but I would think if you got enough of the root it suckered off of some just might take. I doubt the percentage would be very high tho.
 
Can someone help me ID this oak tree? I think it's a Chinkapin but I'm not 100% sure...:) We are in west central Illinois. Thanks! :D

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Everything about that tree says chinkapin to me, the acorns, cap, leaves and bark all look like a chinkapin oak.
 
Everything about that tree says chinkapin to me, the acorns, cap, leaves and bark all look like a chinkapin oak.

That's what I thought but I wanted to hear your thoughts Phil. A chestnut oak has leaves like that but the bark is very different so I say it's a chinkapin! :)
 
It's time to harvest and plant acorns so I thought I would re-post a few links and bring up discussion on the subject. There is a hardly a less expensive or less labor intensive way to establish trees then by direct seeding acorns.

One can of course direct seed large areas to acorns using a spreader and discing them in and those that have done so may wish to comment on their own plantings.

Most of us will probably stick to planting a few dozen to a few hundred in our spare time.

This link provides good basic information on collecting, storing and planting both white and red acorns: Plant an Acorn - Grow an Oak Tree

A few notes from that link:

The best time to collect acorns, either off the tree or from the ground, is when they begin falling - just that simple. Prime picking is late September through the first week in November, depending on oak tree species and location within the United States. The acorn is perfect when plump and the cap removes easily

Preparing Acorns for Planting:

The two most critical components for caring for acorns that are to be planted are: not allowing the acorns to dry out for an extended period and not allowing the acorns to heat up. Acorns will lose their ability to germinate very quickly if allowed to dry out.


Keep acorns in the shade as you collect them, and put them in your refrigerator as soon as possible if not planting immediately. Don't freeze acorns.
Immediate planting should be limited to the white oak species group including white, bur, chestnut and swamp oak. Red oak species group acorns must be planted in the second season - the following spring.

Storing Acorns for Planting:

Put acorns in a polyethylene plastic bag - a wall thickness of four to ten mils - with damp peat mix or sawdust. These bags are ideal for storing acorns since they are permeable to carbon dioxide and oxygen but impermeable to moisture.


Close the bag loosely and store in the refrigerator at 40 degrees (white oaks can still sprout at between 36 and 39 degrees). Check acorns throughout the winter and keep just barely damp.

Red oak acorns need about 1000 hours of cold or about 42 days. Planting these acorns in late April of the following season gives you the best success but can be planted later.

Planting White Oak Group Acorns:

White oak acorns mature in one season - the season of collection. White oak acorns do not exhibit seed dormancy and will start to germinate very soon after maturing and falling to the ground. You can plant these acorns immediately or refrigerate for later planting.

Planting Red Oak Group Acorns:

Red oak acorns mature in two seasons. The red oak group has to have some seed dormancy and generally does not germinate until the following spring and with some stratification (a cooling period). If stored properly and kept damp, these red oak acorns can be held in cold storage for planting in late April through early summer.

Germinating and Potting Acorns:

After determining the proper time to plant, you should select the best looking acorns (plump and rot-free) and place those in loose potting soil in one-gallon pots or deeper containers. The tap root will grow quickly to the bottom of containers and root width is not as important.


Containers should have holes in the bottom to allow for drainage. Place acorns on their sides at a depth of one half to one times the width of the acorn. Keep the soil moist but aerated. Keep the "pots" from freezing.

Transplanting Acorns:

Don't allow an oak seedling’s tap root to grow out of the container bottom and into the soil below. This will break the tap root. If possible, seedlings should be transplanted as soon as the first leaves open and become firm but before extensive root development occurs.

The planting hole should he twice as wide and deep as the pot and root ball. Carefully remove the root ball. Gently set the root ball in the hole with the root crown at the level of the soil surface. Fill the hole with soil, firmly tamp and soak

The biggest source of acorn predation of course is squirrels and mice who dig up newly planted acorns so for small quanities one needs to protect them in some manner.

letemgrow uses small tubes but one can also use wire screen, or fencing of some sort and this link gives some great examples and more planting/storing information:

Planting oaks from Seed

I have some alum. window screen left over so I will give that a try to protect not only the acorn but the emerging seedling much as the short tubes would.

oakbaskets.jpg




Acorn Storage

Most seed managers do not like to store acorns over long periods, because their size requires large refrigerated storage space and because viability declines each year. Acorns of most red oaks can be stored for 3 years without critical losses in viability (Bonner 1973), while most white oaks can be stored only 6 months without complete loss of viability. One solution to the problem is to plant acorns in the fall immediately after collection and avoid storage. For some nurseries and conditions, this option is a good one for next years crop. Short-term storage under good conditions between collection and sowing is essential to maintain good acorn quality, however, and many managers would like to store extra acorns for use 1 or 2 years later. Since good storage practices for both purposes require the same facilities and procedures, the recommendations are the same. (Bonner, 1993)
Acorns of red oak species should be stored with their moisture contents at 30 percent or higher in temperatures near, but above, freezing (34?F to 40?F). Air-tight storage is lethal, so containers must allow some gas exchange with the atmosphere while maintaining high acorn moisture levels (Bonner 1973). Polyethylene bags with a wall thickness of 4 to 10 mils are good. For large quantities of acorns, storage can be in drums, cans, or boxes with polyethylene bag liners. Container tops and liners should not be completely closed; this will allow sufficient gas exchange. If water collects in the bottoms of storage containers, it should be drained from acorns intended for storage longer than over winter. (Bonner, 1993) (Table:Germination and Moisture Contents of Cherrybark Oak Acorns)
With proper care, many southern red oaks should maintain good viability for at least 3 years. We have had good success in our laboratory with water, cherrybark, and Nuttall oaks (Q. nuttallii Palmer), but less success with Shumard and willow (Q. phellos L.) oaks. Similar methods were used by Farmer (1975) for successful storage of northern red and scarlet (Q. coccinea Muenchh.) oaks, and by Suszka and Tylkowski (1982) for northern red oak in Poland. (Bonner, 1993) (Table: Viability and Retention of Various Southern White Oak Acorns)
With few exceptions, white oak acorns cannot be stored longer than over winter (4 to 6 months) without complete loss of viability. For over-winter storage, the same methods outlined for red oak storage should generally be used. Thinner polyethylene (1.75 mil) or cloth bags may be advantageous for white oaks because of a need for greater aeration (Rink and Williams 1984). Schroeder and Walker (1987) reported excellent results in storage of bur oak (Q. macrocarpa Michx.) for 6 months at 34?F and 44 percent acorn moisture in sealed plastic bags. No information was given on the thickness of the bags. Any reduction in acorn moisture significantly decreased germination capacity and rate. Laboratory testshave provided some rare successes with storing white oaks species. (Bonner, 1993).
Moisture content remains a crucial factor throughout storage. With acorn moisture levels above 30 percent and temperatures above freezing, respiration proceeds at a rapid rate. This process gradually decreases acorn dry weight, causing small increases in the percentage of moisture over time (Table:Germination and Moisture Contents of Cherrybark Oak Acorns). Schroeder and Walker (1987) found no increase in bur oak moisture content over 6 months of storage, but Gosling (1989) reported that English oak acorn moisture contents increased as much as 5 percent over 6 months in storage. The loss in dry weight is why a static state of equilibrium between internal acorn moisture and the storage atmosphere, such as we find in orthodox species, is never reached for acorns. Approximate equilibrium moisture contents have been determined for a few species, but these probably change over long storage periods. Note that white oak has much higher equilibrium levels than the two red oak species. This is because starch, the major storage food in white oak, is more hygroscopic than lipid, the major storage food in red oaks. (Bonner, 1993)

More great links and pictures on this subject:

Growing your own oak seedlings

Planting oaks

Collect and plant acorns

There are a whole series of videos on youtube showing how to collect, store and plant acorns at this link:

Video list on planting acorns

Remember to do a float test, if they float discard them, don't let them lay on in the hot baking sun and completely dry out, sort out ones that are cracked, have holes in them etc.

Look for trees that are prolific and yield consistantly year after year or that deer seek out among others. Watch for young trees that have produced early and bring new genetics in to your area by swapping with friends.

If you wish to start them in pots to transplant later this company has some great products to encourage root growth.

Root Maker Products

Today is a great day to go for a walk and scoop up a pocket full of acorns and get some more of these great trees growing on your property! :way:
 
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Today is a great day to go for a walk and scoop up a pocket full of acorns and get some more of these great trees growing on your property! :way:


No doubt!!! :way: :way:


I use the double wide or super wide tree tubes about 1.5-2 feet tall to start with and press them into the ground about 2 inches. Then I go back through and re-select the best of the best for growth. Those top notch trees then get a metal guard around them to keep the deer off them until they are big enough to not be rubbed. The other trees are left to fend for themselves and I start the process all over again and reuse the tree tubes.
 
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I checked on some of my hybrid oaks the other day, most are between 8-10 years old and was delighted to find acorns on some!

It's been so long I couldn't remember which were which so I sent pics to Ken Asmus at Okios Tree Crops where I had purchased them as tiny seedlings and he sent this reply.

They are Quercus x schuetti. Mostly Quercus bicolor, swamp white oak and are from the one tree on our farm that fruited at 3 years old. The last photo looks like a seedling from a 2nd hybrid schuettes we have here with more lobed leaves. But for sure these are swamp white oak crosses with the typical bark and leaf pattern. Ken

So it appears many of them are Schuettes Oak — Quercus x schuettei-Ecos although I have planted many bur-gambels, Bimundors Oak. bur-english, Sargents and Sauls just to name a few.

The hybrids are fun to plant even only one or two of each each year and I have done so for well over a decade now but I need to come up with a better method of marking them?

Here's some pics of them...

First acorns! Imagine planting an oak at my age and living to see it produce! Awesome!

Hybridoakacorns.jpg


Some of the bark and leaves of a few of them

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This one has a leaf more like a bur-gambel and the gambel oaks are short, almost shrubby trees and that's the way these are.

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and deer have severely damaged many if not most of these trees

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Most at least have some serious scars!

Oakdeerdamage.jpg


Growth then is not what it should be and in fact I'm happy they survived at all!

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The sawtooths are huge but they were planted a year or two earlier and we planted thousands of them, more then deer could "attack" and they eventually out grew them

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We're going to start fencing this next week and I'm going to make taking care of them a priority as keeping grass and weeds killed back even on larger oaks will help increase mast production and tree growth of youg oaks.

Fencing.jpg


For the most part the hybrid oaks from Okios are just native oaks that have cross bred with othe oaks and Okios has scoured the country to find early producing and fast growth parent trees.

The seedlings come in little paper pots and you can order one or a dozen seedlings. Give them some TLC and they can start producing low tannin, sweet acorns in 6-10 years and provide an attractant the neighbors most likely don't have... ;)
 
That's awesome to see those hybrids producing already Dbl.
I collected a bunch of white oak acorns this morning while giving my dog her morning walk. The oaks are really dropping them around my area right now. I found a young white oak with a dbh of maybe 6-7" that was loaded with acorns. Filled my pockets and planted them on a well drained sunny site. My dog thought digging up the acorns as I planted them was great fun, but I managed to get some in the ground while she was chasing bugs and whatnot :D
 
That peeling bark on swamp whites had me freaked for awhile, but the trees are doing great. I'm glad to see pics of someone else's doing the same thing.
 
Quick question on the bur oaks when direct seeding do you leave the outer husk ( shell or what ever you call it) on or do you need to pull it off first. great thread!
 
Quick question on the bur oaks when direct seeding do you leave the outer husk ( shell or what ever you call it) on or do you need to pull it off first. great thread!

I remove all caps from acorns before storing or planting although perhaps they would grow anyway?

You may have to let them dry some before they will pop off but at the same time don't let the acorns "dry out" as in to the point of cracking...;)
 
Great pics Paul. I'm surprised the sawtooths are that big & not producing acorns yet. At least they probably provide some good cover...
 
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