Which State will be the 1st to move it's gun season out???

[KSHUNTER]

Kansas made the push two years ago to open rifle season 1 week earlier. I sent letters to the commissioners (they vote on changes to game law), and talked with the kdwp main biologist. He said that kdwp recommended to keep it status quo, but he said politics and personal agendas are the determining factors, not sound management practices. - Imagine that!!

Luckily outcry from the public was loud enough, no changes were made. Although I doubt the issue is dead.

 

[Sligh1]

Kansas made the push two years ago to open rifle season 1 week earlier. I sent letters to the commissioners (they vote on changes to game law), and talked with the kdwp main biologist. He said that kdwp recommended to keep it status quo, but he said politics and personal agendas are the determining factors, not sound management practices. - Imagine that!!

Luckily outcry from the public was loud enough, no changes were made. Although I doubt the issue is dead.

It seems like most states r always changing the laws in ways that HURT hunting.... Something that hurts quality seems like its proposed yearly and often passed. The law changes like moving the season back (which would help quality) and many other laws HELPING quality r far harder to get brought up- fought to more extremes by old schoolers and simply, rarely proposed. I sure hope states make 10 steps forward before taking seven steps back little by little.

 

[150 Class]

So talking to my buddies in different states as they plan their trip each year to leave their state during November... Many tell me of Nov 3, Nov 15, Nov 10, etc gun seasons.... All ludicrous in many deer manager's opinions (and yes, mine too) and why states like IA, KS, OH, etc are so good - late gun (ok, I think we all know this). So, is any state out there actively trying to move their gun season out?? Any guesses on who will beat back the old schooler's and finally make a change that's right and makes biological sense and make hunting better for everyone?

Yes, I can't believe Missouri can look north to Iowa and not put 2+2 together- especially considering they have more habitat & possibly more potential. Same with Michigan looking to its southern neighbor of Ohio and seeing night & day difference in quality of the hunting. Or MN thinking early Nov with rifles is a great idea when droves of its hunters head just over the border to IA when able as it's also an unbelievable jump in management. More and more folks each year understand what value a late gun season brings to ALL HUNTERS for better hunting and superior biologically backed management. Many are stuck in their 1970's beliefs of management & won't consider any advancements or change but many are. We all know how hard it is to get any stubborn old-school thinkers to change anything or even discuss anything that would help all hunters & biology. Many folks are understanding this and much of it is coming from looking at good examples of their neighboring states. Think any states will ever finally make the change???

I'll keep biting my tongue for now, but I will ask, how do we think that the timing of the season has anything to do with being "biologically" better? I'll also ask, do we really think Iowa is better? And, what is the "state's" primary goal, and what should it be? Who should it be for? What is the state's definition of a quality herd? Is it in writing?

Sligh, I don't know why it's moved back or if it will stay. It may be the rotation looked you said. I just know this year it is a week after AR gun season, and in all years past that I can remember it has been the same. We can only hope.

Timing of the seasons has changed due to the calendar. When is Thanksgiving? When is the first Saturday of December? Many states, Iowa included, has their gun season starting 6 days later than last year.

 

[SaskGuy]

I feel dumb... what does the season timing have to do with biology? Enlighten me.

I live where a 5 week rifle season begins Nov. 1. am not saying I like the length of it, but understand why our gov't chooses it. I don't understand how it biologically hurts us though.

 

[167]

MO did back there gun season up one week this year.

Its actually the same time as it always is, two Saturdays before thanksgiving. Being from Missouri id love to see rifle season moved but it never will happen...

 

[mplane72]

9:20 on a saturday night and this is what I'm doing? Oh how the mighty have fallen...

Anyway, Commonly accepted wisdom is that Iowa enjoys such a relatively high number of mature bucks in their herd because of the timing of their gun season. With hunters being limited to a bow during what is commonly accepted as a mature bucks most vulnerable time of the year more survive season to season.
Funny thing is the timing of our deer season has as much to do with tradition as any other state. Used to be that we had these things called pheasants. When the Iowa DNR was setting up the first deer season it was going to be earlier then it is. Hunters asked it be pushed back into December and out of the first month of pheasant season. Sometimes it's better to be lucky then good.

 

[Sligh1]

Like above and which I think most folks understand, I'm happy to explain the connection of biology with season timing.... Biology of course when referring to deer would be: origin, behavior, changing thru age, distribution. "Healthy biology" among deer would be argued by most (and I agree)... A well balanced deer herd with reasonable buck to doe ratios, good age structures (.5 to FULLY MATURE and everything in between), health of ecosystem (habitat, disease, impact to other animals, etc). Explanations on a balanced deer herd with a structured and variety of age classes, new maturing deer each year - we probably don't need to get into that.
So.... The STRONG connection..... in VERY BASIC AND VERY SHORT TERMS.... You put hundreds of thousands of guys with rifles out when bucks are vulnerable, fairly stupid, completely visible and going insane - those bucks will be mowed down very quickly. And we all know the masses are not real picky, especially at 200 yards. Why states like MI where I grew up has 60%++ (some show as much as 80%) of a kill comprised of 1 year old bucks. You put the gun season out 2 weeks - those "stupid" animals finally get control of their crazy horny rampage and don't have the opportunity to venture half a mile a day in front of half a dozen rifle-toters. The bucks in turn, with a late gun season, have relative peace with limited bow hunters pursuing. Making the ability for them to be at the highest guard during gun season when they have their natural guards up. ( MAYBE IN AREAS WITH FEW OR NO HUNTERS -OUT WEST, CANADA, ETC- it's not near the issue - let's focus on midwest on to the east coast here where we have every block of timber filled with plenty of hunters & pressure).

So, really, does anyone not think having the gun season in Dec saves an immense amount of young bucks especially and allows for a huge amount of deer to reach maturity VS the same area with a gun season 2 weeks earlier or in peak rut??!?!?! Really?!?!?!??! Put rifles and shotguns in any hundred thousand guy's hands during peak rut- sorry- good things for MANAGEMENT AND BIOLOGY OF THE HERD are NOT HAPPENING.

So.... The connection - the rare states that have the late gun season FACTUALLY have a far better age structure on buck harvests (need evidence?). Far better at mimicking the NATURAL MAKE-UP of what Mother-Nature intended for deer (which we'll never see but obviously many deer also live to 9-10 for bucks I believe and 10-14 for does on avg I think) with varying age structures. COMPETITION FOR THE STRONGEST ANIMALS!!! STRONGEST ANIMALS DOING THE BREEDING. THE STRONG SURVIVE in a state which has a variation of age structures and bucks fighting and competing to breed. Competition to breed is a biological discussion in itself & is almost eliminated or a rare-occurance in the states blown to piss for age structure DUE TO GUNS IN PEAK RUT.

We have shown in Iowa - we can quickly change deer #'s even with a late gun season. We have a huge variance in most areas for age classes of bucks and ample supply (early gun states in other similar states and populated areas do not or not near to the degree - again, look at any stats for that & kill data: PA, MI, MN, NY, etc). We attract droves of hunters from the early gun states to hunt our "QUALITY" managed state and few of our folks venture there. Most the habitat in Iowa, OH, KS, etc is well managed and carrying capacity is often well in check. Our herd behaves more as mother nature intended, different age classes and challengers for breeding fighting and trying to allow the strong to survive. Most state's bucks/hunting, such as MI are like 15 year old boys chasing women- it could work but sure isn't right or natural.

Quality herd will of course have 5 million opinions, I get that. If we cut the crap and shortened this way to its baseline.... Iowa is QUALITY (as of now) and you take that for what it's worth or can read into. And Michigan, for example, is the poster-child for CRAP and garbage management. If you think a rifling down of a year old buck in MI on Nov 15 is quality (along with half a million other dudes doing the same, and what you CAN expect for the vast masses) than we simply have differing OPINIONS of what quality is.

 

[JRudd]

If Iowa had a gun season during the rut, deer hunting as we know it would go to chit in a hand basket...

Not hard to see.

I'm a believer that all gun seasons should be closed during the rut for any given state... bow hunting only. It'd only improve those areas that are struggling. Among other things that could be done.. pushing back the gun seasons should be first on the list.

 

[Fishbonker]

So here's a thought, how about in Iowa we open archery season on Sept 15th (no extra youth seasons) close archery season October 25th, open archery again November 15th and keep gun seasons as they are? Doesn't that mean the mature buck population will explode? Perhaps too "New School" huh?

 

[Sligh1]

Archery during the rut will itself let a place explode. There does not need to be an absence of hunting and comparing states with archery during rut vs rifles during rut has staggering differences. Archery guys take it in the rear already in rifle-rut states- maybe having a few great days with bow??? (Nov5-9 say if nov 10 is gun opener) vs here: nov 5-25 is really excellent hunting time IMO. 5 times the length to spend outdoors with the bow. Bowhunters in other states Get the shaft for quality hunting days they can get before guns blaze.
Archery during rut and guns way past rut has been proven over and over (need proof?) to have more mature bucks, bigger bucks, better age classes, more competitive breeding and even better doe to buck ratios. Archers r not the problem and rifle hunters wouldn't be either if we used sound logic and evidence to time when their season should be set at.

 

[Fishbonker]

Not arguing your logic or biology Sligh, I'm trying to point out that "Old School" vs "New School" is totally in ones perspective.

BUT, don't you agree, BIOLOGICALLY that if all hunting was stopped during the rut that the number of mature bucks would explode?

I will also say that this is IOWAwhitetail.com not WHATISRIGHTFOREVREYSTAE.com. I say that because over the years I have been very vocal about out of staters trying to change Iowa's deer regulations so it is only fair that I take "no opinion" on what other states do. It does serve a purpose though when we can point to other states practices and how they would negatively effect Iowa. Transferable tags, unlimited OTC tags etc etc.

 

[150 Class]

Archery during the rut will itself let a place explode. There does not need to be an absence of hunting and comparing states with archery during rut vs rifles during rut has staggering differences. Archery guys take it in the rear already in rifle-rut states- maybe having a few great days with bow??? (Nov5-9 say if nov 10 is gun opener) vs here: nov 5-25 is really excellent hunting time IMO. 5 times the length to spend outdoors with the bow. Bowhunters in other states Get the shaft for quality hunting days they can get before guns blaze.
Archery during rut and guns way past rut has been proven over and over (need proof?) to have more mature bucks, bigger bucks, better age classes, more competitive breeding and even better doe to buck ratios. Archers r not the problem and rifle hunters wouldn't be either if we used sound logic and evidence to time when their season should be set at.

It could easily be argued that gun hunters in IA get the shaft since they get zero days hunting the rut. Don't get me wrong, I am not proposing that we start that, or make any changes at all.

Iowa does not have some magical "planned" QDM program, or trophy buck program. Their deer management program has population management as their #1 goal and hunting opportunities after that. You say otherwise and that you can show it but you have come up empty so far for IA and the other states that you say are the leaders in their deer management programs. I truly hope you can show me otherwise. The fact that our gun seasons come after the rut has more to do with traditions and how we got there in the first place, not big buck management, age structure, buck to doe ratios, etc. Nada.... Our first gun season has started on the 1st Saturday in December for how long and evolving from very few doe tags being issued (buck only), all tags are any deer, extra doe only tags being allowed in 2nd season, extra doe tags being allowed in all seasons and all counties, extra doe tags being cut back to certain counties and fewer in some, etc. Population control is key and 1st weekend of December for gun season through all of it.


Biology? We will have to respectfully agree to disagree on that one. What you describe as a typical gun harvest in other states looks an awful lot like any locker in IA during the gun season, or bow season for that matter.

Deer management program? Who should it be for? What I want? What you want? Who owns the deer in the state of IA?

 

[Sligh1]

hWhat above specifically have I been empty on showing? I was simply confused as to specifically what you were saying I haven't backed up so far. Please clarify on what exactly you'd like me to show and I'll do my best.

other states vs here for buck harvests. Here's some random snippets... http://www.change.org/petitions/mic...utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=share_petition

MI- 61% 1 year old bucks in part of state- rest of things I can clip here have it between 57-80%. Minnesota
1.5 yr old: 67%
2.5 20%
3.5 10%


KANSAS is at 9%. DARN - I am not finding that Iowa reports how many deer are 1 year olds and so on. They are apparently not tracking this. If you're seeing areas where the majority are year old bucks & you're not somehow in my homestate of MI - dude- I don't know where in Iowa you are?!?!? I'm not saying it's not true what you saw but I surely have never seen anything remotely close to that over 12 years in 5 different lockers across the state.

Ya Bonker, Iowa is Iowa. Other states can do what they want. I just see it like many do who "vote with their feet".... They don't like what's going on in their state and see the neighboring state doing something successful & different in similiar circumstances, folks have a chance to change their state or move.
I whole-heartedly hope we fight of laws that will degrade our QUALITY and to my friends across the borders- I just hope they look at us as a place to emulate. I know most do and for good reason. Not everything BUT our late gun season (and yes, I know why we have a late gun season and thankful we do) is a key many neighbors could very simply implement and I bet enough folks know this where the fire has started on getting this moving for THEIR state, up to them & good luck to them!


**POPULATION CONTROL IS NOT EFFECTIVE BY SHOOTING BUCKS. Those are not the fundamentals of population reduction when needed if that's all we cared about. Thus- rifles during the rut would again be the worst thing for pop management.... BUCKS being the visible animal and does often hiding or in the most secretive, scared & odd movement. Why you often see more bucks during rut than does. So, if it's only about POP management - rifles during rut take another hit.

 

[JNRBRONC]

Archery during the rut will itself let a place explode. There does not need to be an absence of hunting and comparing states with archery during rut vs rifles during rut has staggering differences. Archery guys take it in the rear already in rifle-rut states- maybe having a few great days with bow??? (Nov5-9 say if nov 10 is gun opener) vs here: nov 5-25 is really excellent hunting time IMO. 5 times the length to spend outdoors with the bow. Bowhunters in other states Get the shaft for quality hunting days they can get before guns blaze.
Archery during rut and guns way past rut has been proven over and over (need proof?) to have more mature bucks, bigger bucks, better age classes, more competitive breeding and even better doe to buck ratios. Archers r not the problem and rifle hunters wouldn't be either if we used sound logic and evidence to time when their season should be set at.

You should obviously be in charge.

 

[Sligh1]

You should obviously be in charge.

DONE! Thanks for the appointment!
Ok, guys some new rules coming down..... Gun season remains, Dec 7. Will never be made any earlier than 1st Saturday in Dec. Late Shed Buck season is now gone. Counties needing antlerless tags can do so in September. No other changes at this time. Please send suggestions to one of my staff members.

What I also took from this appointment was control of several neighboring states. Starting immediately.... MO will have a Dec 1 rifle opener (and double checking on this...) will be a 1 buck limit during that rifle season. It will be one week long. MN - starting today, your gun season starts Dec 5 in the southern half of the state. Upper half starts Nov 22. 1 buck and you're done. MI - No more 2 bucks... 1 buck and you're done. Gun season mirrors MN.

That's it for now. My mandates are veto-proof and we'll see how it goes for a couple years. The Deer Dictator can be re-appointed at a later date and I am looking strongly at tapping JNRBRONC for the position but we have to sit down to make sure he's ready! :way::drink1:

 

[nannyslayer]

Your only allowed 1 buck during the mo rifle season. No party hunting, your tag, only you are allowed to use it.

I know your stance on seasons, but what if rifle only hunters, such as my grandpa, be forced to hunt outside of the rut, when he loves hunting the rut?

 

[Sligh1]

Your only allowed 1 buck during the mo rifle season. No party hunting, your tag, only you are allowed to use it.

I know your stance on seasons, but what if rifle only hunters, such as my grandpa, be forced to hunt outside of the rut, when he loves hunting the rut?

PERFECT SCENARIO TO ROLL-OUT MY SOLUTION LINE FOR THAT.... We will "GRANDFATHER IN" the GRANDFATHERS who have done it over 30 years. I am cool with Grandfathering in your Grandfather. Will reduce it to 3 days since grandfolks are generally pretty tired out by then anyways, end of day or shooting time is 2pm for safety, rest time and making it to the early bird dinners, Consider it done. Helps to know people. The rest will follow the new dictates of the Dec rifle season for the rest of us in MO. Dictator with compassion! :way:

 

[JRudd]

It could easily be argued that gun hunters in IA get the shaft since they get zero days hunting the rut.

Actually, Iowa gun hunters have some excellent opportunities at harvesting a buck in post rut. I watched a buddy kill a 170" nontypical in late muzzle as he was chasing a yearling doe in circles! I personally killed a nice 8 during 2nd shotgun a few years back as he was hot on the heels of a doe as well, grunting every step of the way.

That's enough of an advantage for gun hunters, not to mention the deer movement from other hunters...and ability to party hunt and harvest deer for other hunters tags.. and deer are still responsive to some calling as well if not under pressure.

that would be a very poor arguement IMO

 

[Sligh1]

It could easily be argued that gun hunters in IA get the shaft since they get zero days hunting the rut.

Actually, Iowa gun hunters have some excellent opportunities at harvesting a buck in post rut. I watched a buddy kill a 170" nontypical in late muzzle as he was chasing a yearling doe in circles! I personally killed a nice 8 during 2nd shotgun a few years back as he was hot on the heels of a doe as well, grunting every step of the way.

That's enough of an advantage for gun hunters, not to mention the deer movement from other hunters...and ability to party hunt and harvest deer for other hunters tags.. and deer are still responsive to some calling as well if not under pressure.

that would be a very poor arguement IMO

why when you read the record books the DNR puts out and keeps track of - the vast majority of MAMMOTH monsters for the year are GUN KILLS. Go ahead, look at gun VS bow kills. The gun kills are far bigger in # and also shoot far bigger deer. They too are reaping the benefit of a late gun season by having so many more mature bucks to hunt. Everyone wins in a situation like ours, gun & bow. Both have tremendous opportunity and incredible hunting during their time.

 

[Windwalker]

You can use a gun during rut its called Ringgold County bow season just ask the DNR . Its a joke usually hear it about sunset .