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Regs Dialogue with MDC Director

Hardwood11 said:
So they allow up to 10 permits in CWD zones, and 2 bucks per year for Non Resident permits. Non residents with 80 acres can buy landowner tags and you think they will eliminate that and go to a Nonresident draw ?
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I think it will be an item of conversation. They are going to do more research and surveys before they do anything from the conversation I had.
To your point I hope MDC will take some drastic measures to take up some regs more in line with IA.
 
deerdown said:
If they reduce the NR numbers by half, MDC might get their money from increased tag fees, but the local business won't. They'll lose out. Everyone is always ok with that until it impacts them. Is losing your business, or having your revenue significantly impacted a fair exchange so a few people can shoot a bigger buck? Not sure they would agree. Outfitters mayl be impacted as well. There are 2 in my neighborhood and I'm guessing they're running 20 guys a week each thru camp. I don't think they'll keep those numbers in a draw system.
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As MO's resource the 1st priority should be for the resource itself and its conservation.
2nd should be regulations beneifcial regulation to residents of the state- which encourage new hunter recruitment/retention/access for a quality experience.
If diners and truck stops are that close to failure that they depend that much on 3-4 weeks out of the year for bumper business they are close to failure already.
Businesses a few miles north in southern IA counties seem to be doing just fine with NR draw.
 
deep woods goat hunter said:
As MO's resource the 1st priority should be for the resource itself and its conservation.
2nd should be regulations beneifcial regulation to residents of the state- which encourage new hunter recruitment/retention/access for a quality experience.
If diners and truck stops are that close to failure that they depend that much on 3-4 weeks out of the year for bumper business they are close to failure already.
Businesses a few miles north in southern IA counties seem to be doing just fine with NR draw.
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Looks like 80% of the people surveyed already have said items or did I misunderstand the survey results? In reference to Iowa, I hear the same arguments that you are making: hunter recruitment/retention/access to quality experience, and there is a NR draw in IA already. As mentioned before I grew up in MO and still bow hunt there. as NR. Unfortunately if a person is relying on hunting public ground in MO or IA the experience will not be the same as permission or owning private land. NR draws may slow NRLO but IA has plenty of interest and MO will also with rifles during rut. Just make sure if you are toting these improvements as benefitting everyone that you take into account what Joe weekend hunter being the majority is happy with. Unfortunately not every hunter has the time or desire to trophy hunt whether by buck age or trophy status. If MO moves the gun season back, average Joe will have a more difficult rifle season and on some public tracts may not even see a deer because movement changes drastically after the rut. Just my $.02!
 
deep woods goat hunter said:
I think it will be an item of conversation. They are going to do more research and surveys before they do anything from the conversation I had.
To your point I hope MDC will take some drastic measures to take up some regs more in line with IA.
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deep woods goat hunter said:
It is not legislative at all. Mo is very different than most states. 4 member Conservation Commission approves regulation changes, most times from recommendations from MDC director, program supervisors (Jason I) and resolutions from CFM (Conservation Federation of Missouri). I'm life member.
Revenue is not an excuse to exploit the resource, that's kind of how we got where we are in MO imho.
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I will be devils advocate and point out that the MDC is highly unlikely to vote to decrease revenue and increase the likelihood of job loss when the overall satisfaction rate of hunters is high in Missouri.

CWD is a huge issue, and any restriction on tags or the ability to manage a farm would be completely counterproductive to the CWD plan…

This is big $$ . I’ll also point out that Missouri is not Iowa and can’t just charge whatever and NR will pay it . If you don’t accomplish moving the gun season back (which is the key difference) there won’t be a huge demand for a Missouri draw as it stands.

You’d have to significantly improve the “product” first, before you can charge more and implement a draw .
 
Muskrat24 said:
Looks like 80% of the people surveyed already have said items or did I misunderstand the survey results? In reference to Iowa, I hear the same arguments that you are making: hunter recruitment/retention/access to quality experience, and there is a NR draw in IA already.
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No, I don't think you misunderstood the survey results. If you did, then we both did......

You know, I've never seen the recent biological studies done on the Missouri deer herd that corroborates these claims that Missouri has an unhealthy herd, or that the age structure of the herd is unhealthy or unbalanced.

Maybe the OP can provide the links to those studies so we can better understand how big this problem is...... I've never seen these studies myself and would like to get up to speed before supporting any changes for the reasons being stated.
 
deerdown said:
or that the age structure of the herd is unhealthy or unbalanced.
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The age structure is definitely "young" compared to the surrounding states of Iowa and Kansas. Gun season during the rut is the #1 cause of this.

Many more P&Y / B&C bucks taken from those states, despite our habitat and food being good (or better). The genetics in MO are as good as anyone's in the midwest.
 
deerdown said:
What aren't they doing that you think they should be?
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Biologically balanced sex and age structure. Firearms season in peak rut exposing bucks when their heads are more/less detached from their bodies seeking does in estrous. In most areas there very few or no bucks over 3.5 years old and does outnumbering bucks 4-5 to 1.
 
deerdown said:
No, I don't think you misunderstood the survey results. If you did, then we both did......

You know, I've never seen the recent biological studies done on the Missouri deer herd that corroborates these claims that Missouri has an unhealthy herd, or that the age structure of the herd is unhealthy or unbalanced.

Maybe the OP can provide the links to those studies so we can better understand how big this problem is...... I've never seen these studies myself and would like to get up to speed before supporting any changes for the reasons being stated.
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There are no "Studies" Its a simple observation that is obvious for anyone who has spent any time hunting in MO or runs trail cameras on a somewhat regular basis. Jason I. has confirmed this as well.
 
Bassattackr said:
The age structure is definitely "young" compared to the surrounding states of Iowa and Kansas. Gun season during the rut is the #1 cause of this.

Many more P&Y / B&C bucks taken from those states, despite our habitat and food being good (or better). The genetics in MO are as good as anyone's in the midwest.
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Ok, Let's say the age structure is younger than Ia/Ks, and in fact, I'd say that's a distinct possibility/reality. But - does that mean it's broke? does that mean it needs to change? does that then mean it's out of balance or negatively affecting the health of the deer herd? Or is it 'bad' because it isn't what trophy hunters want it to be?

According to 2023 Missouri harvest totals, it was a record year.

JEFFERSON CITY, Mo. – Missouri's 2023-2024 deer-hunting season ended Jan. 15 with the Missouri Department of Conservation (MDC) reporting a preliminary record-setting total deer harvest for the season of 326,026. This year’s new harvest record surpasses the one set in 2006 of 325,457.

Is population an indication of the health of a deer herd? Maybe, maybe not but likely. Is Harvest? Maybe/maybe not but likely.

If Missouri has good/better habitat than Ia/Ks, is that a contributing factor to fewer trophy deer being harvested than those states? Maybe/maybe not.....

I'm actually for an older age structure of bucks and

I would POTENTIALLY support changing some Regs so that the quantity of mature bucks increases - However, I won't be disingenuous and claim it's to better the health of the herd, or that the age structure of the herd is out of balance- because I have seen no proof or indication that those 2 things are a problem in the herd today.

I would appreciate the links to scientific studies, or even articles/emails written by Missouri Biologists supporting those claims.....
 
Bassattackr said:
The age structure is definitely "young" compared to the surrounding states of Iowa and Kansas. Gun season during the rut is the #1 cause of this.

Many more P&Y / B&C bucks taken from those states, despite our habitat and food being good (or better). The genetics in MO are as good as anyone's in the midwest.
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Yup- I have 280 acres at my home farm. I have been running 25ish cameras the last 6 or so weeks. Not a single buck over 3.5 y/o
 
deep woods goat hunter said:
There are no "Studies" Its a simple observation that is obvious for anyone who has spent any time hunting in MO or runs trail cameras on a somewhat regular basis. Jason I. has confirmed this as well.
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Right! I'll know it when I see it! LOL..... 114 counties in Missouri - how many are you running trail cameras on?
 
deep woods goat hunter said:
Yup- I have 280 acres at my home farm. I have been running 25ish cameras the last 6 or so weeks. Not a single buck over 3.5 y/o
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Let's see 280a across Missouri's 44 million plus acres......that a pretty small sample Joe.....



deep woods goat hunter said:


. In most areas there very few or no bucks over 3.5 years old and does outnumbering bucks 4-5 to 1.
deerdown said:
Anything to support these claims?
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480,000 deer hunters. Ask any 1 of them.


I think the MDC has asked them, the majority like what they see, did you not read the survey results?
I'm going to leave this here. You can tell yourself whatever you need to.

Later
 
deerdown said:
Let's see 280a across Missouri's 44 million plus acres......that a pretty small sample Joe.....




deep woods goat hunter said:


. In most areas there very few or no bucks over 3.5 years old and does outnumbering bucks 4-5 to 1.

480,000 deer hunters. Ask any 1 of them.


I think the MDC has asked them, the majority like what they see, did you not read the survey results?
I'm going to leave this here. You can tell yourself whatever you need to.

Later
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Appreciate it. There's one in every crowd.
 
Missouri isn’t Iowa. Many like the regs as is. Very few if any states, outside of Iowa and Kansas, have a NR draw. Maybe push the rifle season back a week or two. Start there and see what impact it has. I think that one variable would be a game changer. Politicians like baby steps. The mdc director is a politician
 
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deerdown said:
Ok, Let's say the age structure is younger than Ia/Ks, and in fact, I'd say that's a distinct possibility/reality. But - does that mean it's broke? does that mean it needs to change? does that then mean it's out of balance or negatively affecting the health of the deer herd? Or is it 'bad' because it isn't what trophy hunters want it to be?

According to 2023 Missouri harvest totals, it was a record year.

JEFFERSON CITY, Mo. – Missouri's 2023-2024 deer-hunting season ended Jan. 15 with the Missouri Department of Conservation (MDC) reporting a preliminary record-setting total deer harvest for the season of 326,026. This year’s new harvest record surpasses the one set in 2006 of 325,457.

Is population an indication of the health of a deer herd? Maybe, maybe not but likely. Is Harvest? Maybe/maybe not but likely.

If Missouri has good/better habitat than Ia/Ks, is that a contributing factor to fewer trophy deer being harvested than those states? Maybe/maybe not.....

I'm actually for an older age structure of bucks and

I would POTENTIALLY support changing some Regs so that the quantity of mature bucks increases - However, I won't be disingenuous and claim it's to better the health of the herd, or that the age structure of the herd is out of balance- because I have seen no proof or indication that those 2 things are a problem in the herd today.

I would appreciate the links to scientific studies, or even articles/emails written by Missouri Biologists supporting those claims.....
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Harvest totals give a good indication of herd size and habitat quality, not age structure..

My county is among the top 5 every year in harvest, yet has a poor age structure. This tells us the habitat and fawn recruitment is great, but so is the hunter pressure during a time in which mature bucks are most at risk (the rut).
 
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