450 Bushmaster AR Pistol in Late Muzzleloader

[isu22andy]

Local gun store is advertising it is now legal to use a 450 Bushmaster AR Pistol in the late muzzleloader season. Last year he said it was illegal due to the atf classification of a pistol can only have so many inches beyond the rear grip but he says this year the law changed and is now legal. Anyone have any info on this ? Seems like a huge grey area as you cant find any classifications in the regs or classifications as what defines what as pistol.... My CVA might become a closet dust collector if true.

 

[Ben Johnson]

Per page 32 in the hunting reg book a Pistol is legal for late muzzleloader. Then looking up to page 31 they define straight wall cartridges but no actual definition of a handgun so my guess is that going to the actual Iowa code is going to reference the ATF definition for a pistol. So if its sold as a pistol then it "should" be legal the question becomes if you've got a 14" barreled 450 with a Sig brace what would a CO say in the field?

 

[rutnstrut]

Theyre legal again this year...
AR pistols were outlawed last year but only last year and thats been reversed so yes a 450 pistol is legal to hunt with...
There is no maximum barrel length or overall length and braces dont make any difference as of now but I can see that being changed in the future. The law says no shoulder stock allowed but legally a brace isnt a shoulder stock and a pistol can not even actually have a stock because that would reclassify it as a short barreled rifle and no longer legal to use as a pistol

 

[isu22andy]

Sounds like DNR jailbait to me . Discretion will be at the CO level sounds like .


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[srjdsmith]

(Strictly academic interest in this thread since 1) I’ve got as much venison as I can use right now and 2) All the late muzzle bonus tags for the county where I hunt have been gone for a long time.)

So technically, on paper, I could take the stock off and replace it with an arm brace and hunt during the late muzzle with the same firearm that I used during shotgun season?

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[Hardwood11]

Muzzy season? No longer a one shot deal?

 

[srjdsmith]

Muzzy season? No longer a one shot deal?

Well, pistols have been a legal method of take for a while. But I thought we were talking about a handgun like a .357 or .44 revolver or maybe a 10mm long slide.

Who would have thought an AR ‘pistol’ was that kind of pistol? Especially in 450B with an ‘arm brace’?


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[gunrunr]

(Strictly academic interest in this thread since 1) I’ve got as much venison as I can use right now and 2) All the late muzzle bonus tags for the county where I hunt have been gone for a long time.)

So technically, on paper, I could take the stock off and replace it with an arm brace and hunt during the late muzzle with the same firearm that I used during shotgun season?


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That would be a very big ATF violation - once a gun is a rifle you are not allowed to convert it to a pistol.
Now if you bought a brand new lower that had never been used as a rifle you could build up a pistol - but definitely not allowed to convert one.

 

[srjdsmith]

That would be a very big ATF violation - once a gun is a rifle you are not allowed to convert it to a pistol.
Now if you bought a brand new lower that had never been used as a rifle you could build up a pistol - but definitely not allowed to convert one.

Now, that makes some sense. Pretending that rifle you just used is a pistol and carrying it during muzzle-loader season... it’s a bit much. To be honest, even a true AR pistol in 450B doesn’t seem like it belongs in any kind of ‘primitive, season.

But if it remains legal, I might have to start shopping for a new lower...


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[meyeri]

I'm not an expert, but I think the answer would be NO. An AR pistol lower has to be registered as a pistol or "other" when it is bought. If you really wanted to, I'm pretty sure you can put a pistol brace on a rifle as long as your barrel is over 16" and your overall length is good; but it is still a rifle.

(Strictly academic interest in this thread since 1) I’ve got as much venison as I can use right now and 2) All the late muzzle bonus tags for the county where I hunt have been gone for a long time.)

So technically, on paper, I could take the stock off and replace it with an arm brace and hunt during the late muzzle with the same firearm that I used during shotgun season?

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[rutnstrut]

Sounds like DNR jailbait to me . Discretion will be at the CO level sounds like .


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This is actually one time that its black and white in print...
Straight cased pistols meeting the caliber requirements and minimum barrel lengths are legal. Arm braces are not stocks so they are legal to have on an AR style pistol. There really isnt anything to argue or interpret.
This isnt a new law, people have been doing it for years but in the past it was 50 Beowulf AR pistols because 450BM wasnt in the allowed calibers. In fact I know a guy that actually does use a 16" 50 Beowulf upper on a pistol lower to hunt with and its perfectly legal and hes done it for years with and without a brace other than last season.
I know its a loophole but a loopholes a loophole anyway you look at it and its legal. That doesnt mean that some CO's wont push their luck and try to write tickets anyways but if it came down to it the word of the law is what it is and I dont see how it could stick. I get why people dont agree with it... It is an AR15 but technically it shouldnt be treated any different than a 15" encore pistol shooting a 450BM or a scoped 460 revolver because theyre all capable of about the same thing.

 

[Rjack]

And many people thought we were not starting down a slippery slope.....

 

[isu22andy]

Now, that makes some sense. Pretending that rifle you just used is a pistol and carrying it during muzzle-loader season... it’s a bit much. To be honest, even a true AR pistol in 450B doesn’t seem like it belongs in any kind of ‘primitive, season.

But if it remains legal, I might have to start shopping for a new lower...


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To be clear on the thread, I am not for this at all. You might as well change the name of the season to Late gun season.... The late season "muzzleloader" truck hunters will have a field day with this.

 

[isu22andy]

This is actually one time that its black and white in print...
Straight cased pistols meeting the caliber requirements and minimum barrel lengths are legal. Arm braces are not stocks so they are legal to have on an AR style pistol. There really isnt anything to argue or interpret.
This isnt a new law, people have been doing it for years but in the past it was 50 Beowulf AR pistols because 450BM wasnt in the allowed calibers. In fact I know a guy that actually does use a 16" 50 Beowulf upper on a pistol lower to hunt with and its perfectly legal and hes done it for years with and without a brace other than last season.
I know its a loophole but a loopholes a loophole anyway you look at it and its legal. That doesnt mean that some CO's wont push their luck and try to write tickets anyways but if it came down to it the word of the law is what it is and I dont see how it could stick. I get why people dont agree with it... It is an AR15 but technically it shouldnt be treated any different than a 15" encore pistol shooting a 450BM or a scoped 460 revolver because theyre all capable of about the same thing.

Why was it illegal last year then or did the local gun store not know ? Thats what the local gun store was advertising. Illegal then this year they changed something but I dont see where they did . Not bickering just curious.

 

[rutnstrut]

Why was it illegal last year then or did the local gun store not know ? Thats what the local gun store was advertising. Illegal then this year they changed something but I dont see where they did . Not bickering just curious.

It was illegal last year, and only last year... The DNR snuck in a section of code that they chose not to put in the printed regulation booklet you see everywhere and what most people use to get their legal hunting info.
The new piece of code said that no handgun used for hunting could have anything protruding behind the pistol grip. Which was basically their way to exclude AR15s since the AR needs a buffer tube to operate.
That made a few people who had been using that form of pistol for years pretty upset and the IFC "Iowa Firearms Coalition" and the NRA stepped in and now from my understanding is that the DNR doesnt get to differentiate what a gun is or isnt that they have to use the same B.A.T.F. definitions and laws that every other law enforcement agency uses. Im sure if AR pistols gain popularity that the DNR will find some way to get rid of them, maybe even pistols as a whole for muzzy season, who knows... Only time will tell I guess

 

[isu22andy]

It was illegal last year, and only last year... The DNR snuck in a section of code that they chose not to put in the printed regulation booklet you see everywhere and what most people use to get their legal hunting info.
The new piece of code said that no handgun used for hunting could have anything protruding behind the pistol grip. Which was basically their way to exclude AR15s since the AR needs a buffer tube to operate.
That made a few people who had been using that form of pistol for years pretty upset and the IFC "Iowa Firearms Coalition" and the NRA stepped in and now from my understanding is that the DNR doesnt get to differentiate what a gun is or isnt that they have to use the same B.A.T.F. definitions and laws that every other law enforcement agency uses. Im sure if AR pistols gain popularity that the DNR will find some way to get rid of them, maybe even pistols as a whole for muzzy season, who knows... Only time will tell I guess

Thank you for the info !!! Im thinking the CVA is here to stay for me... I wouldnt be surprised if there is some rule changes coming on this....

 

[meyeri]

I think it's pretty silly how the rules are setup for an AR designated as a pistol/SBR/rifle. Don't get me wrong I have an AR pistol and it's awesome to avoid a tax stamp, but the rules are convoluted as heck and loopholes don't last forever generally. Most the new information comes from memos from the ATF and that stuff can change at any moment, so it might be illegal to shoulder a brace next year for all we know. Here is a picture of a bullpup "rifle" that has a 16" barrel and an oal greater than 26" next to a 10" barreled pistol AR. One is a pistol and one a rifle? Tell me how concealment concerns are the reason for how the laws are setup? Lol

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[meyeri]

I think it's pretty silly how the rules are setup for an AR designated as a pistol/SBR/rifle. Don't get me wrong I have an AR pistol and it's awesome to avoid a tax stamp, but the rules are convoluted as heck and loopholes don't last forever generally. Most the new information comes from memos from the ATF and that stuff can change at any moment, so it might be illegal to shoulder a brace next year for all we know. Here is a picture of a bullpup "rifle" that has a 16" barrel and an oal greater than 26" next to a 10" barreled pistol AR. One is a pistol and one a rifle? Tell me how concealment concerns are the reason for how the laws are setup? Lol

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Also, these guns aren't mine, I lost all my guns years ago in a boating accident.

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[Oct-Lull]

For my money the 450 Bushmaster has no place in Iowa gun seasons. Especially in an AR platform. It's to much. Just one guys opinion and I am sure some will disagree and that's fine, I think it's bad for hunting.

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[Rjack]

I am sure the next argument will be: well if we can use an AR in the late "primative" season, we should be able to use any rifle in the regular gun seasons.