Cereal Grains and cover crops

[dbltree]

I overseeded my beans 12 days ago and the rye is already 3-4 inches tall!

Awesome! Thanks a bunch for sharing the pics with us!

One can easily see how this combination can work so well because as the beans are drying down the rye (that can be as high as 38% crude protein) is keeping deer in the plot and between the the beans and rye will feed deer all the way into next spring!

Can you say shed magnet!!

I have mentioned that I don't personally plant forage soybeans because they dry down in the middle of hunting season rather then before at which point they become unattractive for 2-3 weeks.

For those that like to take advantage of forage beans you might consider planting 1/3 of a plot to very early maturing beans, 1/3 to mid maturity and 1/3 to forage beans.

The early maturing beans will drop leaves very early depening on planting date, possibley by very late August allowing either brassicas or winter rye to be over seeded.

The second set will mature in mid September allowing winter rye to be over seeded all the while deer will still be feeding on the forage beans.

You'll never skip a beat regardless with conventional RR early maturing soys and over seeded rye or a combination. Do not mix them however or the forage beans will maintain canopy and not allow the rye to grow.

 

[dbltree]

I enjoy "testing" theories so I top dressed 5 small winter rye/pea plots with nitrogen the other day and we recieved nearly 3" of rain the following two days! Perfect scenario to insure the nitrogen wasn't lost to the atmosphere and will be in the root zone.

I did 1/2 of each plot and have trail cams set up to monitor what if anything happens. I've done this in the past and noted no difference in choice of grazing but what the heck..we'll give it another shot!

You can see both the fertilizer and baby clover coming up as well

This plot is one that had not recieved rain for three weeks but a previous rain had germinated the rye seed and spurred growth, so I marked the center with a flag and fertilized one half.

The rye in these plots is already being grazed so in situations like these I always wonder what is to be gained by encouraging growth at this point?

Where landowners have intense grazing pressure sometimes fertilizer is required but the least risky option is to till in urea at planting but when doing this one needs to plant a week or so later rather then earlier because the rye may grow TOO rapidly and defeat the purpose.

Fall is a great time to add lime and P&K if soil tests call for it to build soil nutrients for your next crop but winter rye is very capable of bringing up subsoil nutrients and storing them all for...free!

This is one of my larger plots of winter rye/oats/peas/forage radish and red clover on 9-28

It's always interesting to follow progress thru the fall, winter and into spring because winter rye is the most winter hardy of all cereals insuring that it will be there the entire time both you and your deer herd need it most...:way:

 

[dbltree]

Will winter rye grow in a semi shaded spot with only partial sun?

You bet! Every shaded spot is different however and the less sun the plot gets the poorer the rye will do.

This semi shaded spot grows rye and oats well even with out lime and fertilizer but brassicas alway fail in the same spot.

Shaded spots tend to have far less moisture as trees suck up subsoil moisture and the leaves tend to make if very acidic but winter rye is fairly impervious to either of those problems. It won't hurt to add some pell lime and fertilizer to start improving the soil if you plan to use the plot long term.

I planted some late rye plots on the 28th of September on some unimproved ground that even with plenty of nitrogen added, wouldn't grow brassicas. I'm going to soil test and see what it needs before my next crop but it will be interesting to see both how rye does on poor soil and how rye planted this late will fare.

Some plots were on good improved soil where deer had killed the field peas I had planted this past summer

The soil had plenty of moisture and tilled up nice and loose, so I broadcast seed and cultipacked to cover rather then till it in first.

We got several inches of rain two days later and we have plenty of growing days left with temps running in the mid 60's during the day and 40's at night.

In most years I would far rather have winter rye planted in late September then late August......

 

[droptine37]

We planted our rye the 3rd week of august and the plot was getting a lot of attention through september. It seems like the last two weeks all the deer have disappeared from that plot. Do you think the plot has matured too much or has the arrival of a great acorn crop caught the deers attention? Based on everything I have read from your posts I am starting to think that we will wait until at least september 1st from now on to avoid the plot maturing before the start of the season.
Will a rye, triticale and oats plot that had enough time to grow before the first hard frost to reach maturity still be a late season attractant? I would have to think that when the snow is on the ground that deer would still dig in the snow for the rye and tritacle underneath when most other food is long gone.

 

[dbltree]

We planted our rye the 3rd week of august and the plot was getting a lot of attention through september. It seems like the last two weeks all the deer have disappeared from that plot. Do you think the plot has matured too much or has the arrival of a great acorn crop caught the deers attention? Based on everything I have read from your posts I am starting to think that we will wait until at least september 1st from now on to avoid the plot maturing before the start of the season.
Will a rye, triticale and oats plot that had enough time to grow before the first hard frost to reach maturity still be a late season attractant? I would have to think that when the snow is on the ground that deer would still dig in the snow for the rye and tritacle underneath when most other food is long gone.

It's probably a combination of other food sources and the rye getting a little too mature and less attractive.

Rye and triticale are absoutely great late season attractants and will draw deer all the way in spring but freshly harvested corn is going to trump anything else you could plant.

Standing grain like corn or soybeans are hard to compete with because they seek out the high energy food sources including acorns. Eventually however they will come running back to the rye when all else is gone.

This is why I like the standing beans and overseeded winter rye combo but not everyone can grow beans including me!

Plant your rye a little later and include peas to add some "candy" and forage radish for a late season attractant and you'll be happier with the results...

 

[dbltree]

It's now mid October and here in the midwest it's getting beyond the point where fall applied fertilizer is going to be of much benefit to the growth of your rye/pea and clover combinations.

It is a great time to apply fertilizer that can benefit the clovers next spring and next years crop (such as brassicas, corn, milo etc)

Our temps here are struggling to reach 50 now and freezing at night so urea is much less volatile then when soil temps are 70 degrees or above.

Now personally I would not attempt to apply urea in and of itself right now unless you will be planting corn next year and you would like to notill the crop in which case putting urea or triple 19 could be beneficial and safely done ex[ecting some losses:

Urea applied in the fall has generally not been as effective as AA. This is especially true in south-central Minnesota and Iowa. When fall soil-moisture conditions are dry, there is little difference between AA and urea. But when soil-moisture content is high, fall applications of urea haven't performed as well as AA.

It is a fine time though to start building P&K levels if you have the time and weather permits.

You may find however that many fertlizer mixes may be 10-26-26, 8-36-36 or 6-24-24 and you may also find that a soil test shows that you need 300-400#'s per acre.

By applying in the fall you will not have to worry about losing all nitrogen in the mix and in the spring the rye will absorb it into it's root systems and then re-release it as it decomposes.

Here are some thoughts on fall applied urea.....

Fall Surface-Applied Urea Timelines
During late October/November, there may be days where soils are not deeply frozen, but frozen enough to hold up fertilizer applicators. On the warming side of the freeze and thaw cycle, where water can still move into the soil, urea can be applied with little danger of loss.

This time of year, urea can stay on the surface for a week with nearly zero loss.

When snow melts into the soil, it will move the urea into this soil, protecting it from losses due to volatilization or surface water movement. As the winter deepens, this opportunity will be lost, for although the more frozen soil will hold up equipment, it also will not permit movement of urea into the soil. Surface water movement that could move urea is hard on the pocketbook and the environment. Pay attention to the freeze-thaw cycle and apply urea on the thaw side of the cycle.

When we have warmer humid conditions such as spring and early summer the following happens:

When applied to soil, urea is hydrolyzed by the enzyme urease to NH4+. Depending on soil pH, the NH4+ may form NH3, which can be volatilized at the soil surface, as represented in the following reactions:
CO(NH2)2 + H+ + 2H20 --> 2NH4+ + HC03-
NH4+ ---> NH3 + H+
Urea hydrolysis proceeds rapidly in warm, moist soils, with most of the urea transformed to NH4+ in several days.

So warm weather urea applications need to either be tilled in or just before a heavy rain to push it into the soils.

I just wanted to share this because many ask...is it too late to apply nitrogen?

It may not benefit the crop right now but it also will not be lost and will be utilized in the spring months and recycled when the winter rye is killed or plowed under....

 

[risto2351]

Paul,
Will the recent weather slow down or did it just nuke the BF oats?

If it nuked it will the oats be a draw at all now for the deer?

Now I know it will not kill the rye but will it actually grow when it warms up or is it as tall as it will get?

 

[dbltree]

Paul,
Will the recent weather slow down or did it just nuke the BF oats?

If it nuked it will the oats be a draw at all now for the deer?

Now I know it will not kill the rye but will it actually grow when it warms up or is it as tall as it will get?

Most oats will last to mid November to mid December depending on the year and weather. Oats can take some pretty cold weather before dying.

This cloudy cold weather that barely gets to 45 is not going to grow much of anything but if we get some more 55-65 sunny days, then yes it will grow a little more.

We don't want to much growth however...just enough to keep up with grazing if we had our druthers....

 

[dbltree]

Here's a few pics from on of my winter rye/oat/pea plots where I'm testing the use of nitrogen versus no nitrogen. 200#'s on the right, 100 in the center and none on the left.

So far grazing appears to be uniform and consistant regardless of use of fertilizer and TC pics show grazing on all sides.

Notice the deer in the background feeding on the unfertilized rye and clearly none of the rye is taller or shorter showing equal grazing across the plot.

I have smaller plots that will yield better pics because in a large one the cam obviously isn't going to detect deer farther away but so far (as I have found in the past) I have found no evidence that deer selectively choose fertilizer rye over that which is not...

 

[dbltree]

Some more comparison pics...Winter Rye and Austrian Winter Peas and Tricticale and 4010 peas (4010's are 1/2 the price of AWP)

This pic shows winter rye and AWP's on the right, triticale and 4010's in the center and winter rye and 4010's on the far left with no noticable difference in grazing or obvious choosing of one over another.

Same farm but planted as strips between rows of trees this is Winter Rye and AWP's 10-12-09

and this is the triticale/4010 peas

Now the triticale/4010 row happens to be directly connecting runways in/out of to wooded areas and you can see the runway slightly left of center so this row is getting heavier use/grazing then any other. The larger plot is a more fair comparison of the two.

Both these strips are being grazed heavily and both were sown at over 100#'s of peas and 150#'s of rye or triticale seed along with 200#'s of urea per acre.

Close up this is what it looks like and the approximate height I would prefer winter rye to be this time of year

From this I can safely say that most can sow (for forage puposes) 100#'s or more per acre of pea seed to better keep up with heavy grazing.

I will continue to share how the two different types of peas and cereal grains compare into late fall and winter when extreme temps begin to affect them.
Eventually this type of information better allows landowners to decide what seeds might work best for them and fit into their food plot budget without adversely affecting their ability to attract and hold whitetails....:way:

 

[dbltree]

Update on late planted winter rye that I planted 9-29 after which we have had abnormally cool wet weather that has averaged 7-8 degrees below normal with few sunny days. Shorter length of day also affects plant growth....somthing to be aware of when planting later in the fall as with over seeding. Weather is always an unknown factor when we plant regardless of time of year...

This is as of 10-17 roughly 2 1/2 weeks after planting and far slower then the same rye seed planted Sept. 2nd.

No exactly tall enough for grazing yet but since then we have had some near 70 degree weather and bright sunny days, so I'll check on it next week and see how it looks then.

This is overseeded winter rye (into heavily grazed brassicas) that is roughly 3 1/2 weeks along now.

and I have noticed that deer have been grazing this rye

I now have winter rye planted at roughly two week intervals starting with the first of September so I'll continue to share usage and growth on thru the fall...

 

[Baranx4]

I'm having the same problem with my rye and oats we planted almost 9 acres with areas mixed with several types of brassicas, clover, field peas, quail soy, soybeans, and hairy vetch and the deer population has really hit the fields hard. I actually called yesterday to see if I can get more winter rye to overseed several areas since they actually are eaten down to dirt. It the rate they're going I don't think the plots will make it to the rut. Here in Pa it kicks in right before Halloween.

I'm thinking of seeding it in before the heavy rain they are calling for on Saturday. Hard to believe for how heavy I seeded it that they could knock it down so quickly.

 

[dbltree]

Some folks have been asking about their rye turning yellow after too much rain but there is little we can do about that except hope for some sunny dry weather. We continue to get flooded here in Iowa with 1-3" a week on completely saturated soils causing plants to literally drown!

This pic is of some of my rye where water is still standing and we have another inch in the forecast!

Where soils have good drainage growth is still great!

This is one of my test plots that was fertilized on the left, not on the right with no noticeable difference in grazing preference.

This is winter rye and Groundhog Forage Radish both being grazed heavily...notice the clover also doing well!

This is baby white clover coming up in winter rye that shows evidence of heavy grazing despite standing corn and beans literally feet away!

Constant heavy rainfall like some of us have had this year can cause leaching of nitrogen and that can drastically affect some crops like corn or brassicas.

Winter rye however can grow with very low nitrogen requirements so the yellowing I am seeing now is due solely to areas of completely saturated soils that remain that way for long periods of time.

In our area, only 1-2% of the crops have been harvested because of wet conditions and there appears no end in sight based on the weather forecast.

If your soils are not that wet and your winter rye is yellowing then most likely you have a severe nutrient deficiency because winter rye will grow on some very poor soils!

 

[TMHC]

I have an acre of oats/rye. When spring arrives the rye will continue to grow throughout the spring. What would you plant come June to carry this through the summer. Next fall I intend to add AWP (or field peas) and clover to the mix. Also, is there a difference in fall oats/ spring oats? fall rye, cereal grain rye?

 

[dbltree]

I have an acre of oats/rye. When spring arrives the rye will continue to grow throughout the spring. What would you plant come June to carry this through the summer. Next fall I intend to add AWP (or field peas) and clover to the mix. Also, is there a difference in fall oats/ spring oats? fall rye, cereal grain rye?

The rye will grow like crazy in the spring up to 5 or 6 foot high so it usually is easist to mow it off before it gets 12-20" high. You might consider frost seeding clover into it this late winter so that you have summer feed without having to spring till your rye plot.

In future plantings I would reccomend planting red clover with your fall rye planting so that you can clip the rye off in the spring and have an all spring/summer source of feed that can then be plowed under as a source of nitrogen for your next crop. (white clover will work also)

There is no such thing as "fall oats", all oats are spring planted except for forage purposes for grazing livestock or deer when we fall plant them...same oats either way.

Winter rye, fall rye grain, cereal rye...all the same thing but ryegrass is like lawngrass so just don't let that confuse you.

 

[TMHC]

Thanks again. Is there much difference in AWP and regular field peas?

 

[dbltree]

Thanks again. Is there much difference in AWP and regular field peas?

I am comparing the two right now but so far...no, now difference at all for forage although the AWP may be a little more winter hardy.

So far they lap mine up long before severe cold weather anyway so it's kind of a moot point...

 

[Baranx4]

I'm having the same problem with my rye and oats we planted almost 9 acres with areas mixed with several types of brassicas, clover, field peas, quail soy, soybeans, and hairy vetch and the deer population has really hit the fields hard. I actually called yesterday to see if I can get more winter rye to overseed several areas since they actually are eaten down to dirt. It the rate they're going I don't think the plots will make it to the rut. Here in Pa it kicks in right before Halloween.

I'm thinking of seeding it in before the heavy rain they are calling for on Saturday. Hard to believe for how heavy I seeded it that they could knock it down so quickly.

I over seeded two bushels of winter rye right before the rains came and we've had a fair amount of it since then with temps in the 50's for highs and 40's for low. I checked the fields this morning 10 days later and am really surprised how well they came up. I actually think it came up faster than when I seeded it initially back in September. I think the mild weather, rains, and the turkeys inability to get to the seeds helped. Only problem now is that I got my buck this past wednesday so the extra work I did won't be doing much for me except pulling nitrogen for my spring plantings. Turkeys did come in on Nov 1 so maybe.

 

[dbltree]

Update on the late planted winter rye put in Sept 29th, followed by cold wet weather. We have finally had a few sunny warm days and growth has picked up.

This patch is still a little slow and has grown since I took these pics on 10-27-09

This one looks better and deer are grazing it already

Late planted winter rye can work well and it may work for some landowners to plant some early, mid season and late for differing stages of growth depending on the amount of land and time you have to work with...

 

[TMHC]

Next year when I plant my 1 acre plot of oats, rye, peas and clover should I fertilize it with triple 13, triple 19 or 46-0-0 urea? I currently have it in oats and rye. I will be bringing in some lime this spring.