dbltree
Super Moderator
I am one of those people that is a stickler for the truth, I am forever searching for it in the oft times murky waters of life. It's no surprise then that I am constantly testing something and doing so usually challenges things that many have been lead to believe.
If I am going to stick my neck out because I suspect deception or to disprove a myth I try to use care to make sure my tests are bona fida and with few flaws.
Even at that there will always be those who look upon my information with skepticism so I always encourage landowners to do their own testing and to continue doing so on an ongoing basis as their habitat goals and needs change.
There are some common mistakes that landowners make that often reveal there was indeed no "test" at all and just a perceived thought that something appeared to be better or worse.
One thing we commonly test for is deer preference or lack of it in various forages or varieties within a species and to do this fairly the test comparisons must be side be side and in multiples so that one is not placed on the outside next to a runway while the other is difficult to reach.
An example is corn and soybean test plots....farmers don't plant one hybrid on this side of the farm on rich black soil and another on a clay knob in the back 40. They pick a level fertile spot and plant identical length rows of each variety, fertilize and spray all the same and then harvest and weigh the crop all at the same time.
I often hear people say "I planted WTI clover and Biologic clover and they were all in the Biologic field!"....That only means that they felt safe in that field not that they preferred a certain type of clover.
Both clovers need to be planted in side by side multiples in BOTH fields and then fields monitored with trail cams and observation of both the clovers (for grazing) and of deer feeding in the fields.
Some folks believe that fertilizing clover with nitrogen in the fall will make a difference so I tested that theory but found no difference in either the appearance, growth or grazing in my test plots.
Deer have core areas where they feel safe and they will not travel far from bedding to feed if they don't have to...they are programed to not waste energy and they less they move the safer they are. It takes an extremely attractive food source such as standing soybeans in late December to actually draw deer from any distance so people would be naive to think that a certain clover, cereal or turnip might cause them to abandon all caution to feed on that food source.
Conduct your tests in multiple areas of your farm or property starting with the areas closest to their bedding areas and normal travel areas. Use stakes or flags to mark the different strips containing the test forage varieties or species.
This pic doesn't show the markers but you can see how I planted multiple strips of in this case BFO, Jerry, BFO, and Jerry oats (the Jerry is the lush green color)
The two left strips were also mixed with rye and peas to give me further comparisons.
There are many variables that affect whitetails during a given year and from year to year yet I often hear people exclaim "I planted wheat one year and barley the next and deer definitely preferred the barley!"
That is an impossible statement to make and there was actually no test whatsoever even done. Factors such as a bountiful acorn crop one year and none the next or soybeans next door one year and corn the next all have dramatic effects on whitetails and their usage of any food source.
The size and location of plots or fields is a huge but usually overlooked factor yet often landowners observe dozens of deer in a 50 acre wheat field and then complain bitterly that deer don't like the oats in their 1/4 plot?
Doe groups like their space and will take advantage of larger fields where they can spread out and in doing so create a visual image that leaves a convincing image implanted in ones mind. The truth is though that if that wheat field was oats, or rye or barley...the same deer would be feeding there.
Test different forages on your property and observe the usage of two test comparisons side by side....not yours against the neighbors place.
Others don't even realize what they are saying when they mix multiple forages together and say "yep...they like A better then B or C"....so that means that B and C must be 2 foot tall in clumps all over the field correct??
Of course such is not the case and it is impossible to test a mix of forages against itself.
Testing with exclusion cages can sometimes be tricky unless the two plants are nearly identical in growth habits. Testing a tall ladino clover against a shorter white clover with cages would prove fruitless because one is naturally taller then the other.
Cereals are the same way because some oats have a taller growth stature, rye grows faster and taller then wheat and so on and so forth.
I observe the plants up close as getting down on my knees and examining the plants for evidence of grazing or lack of it. If deer actually preferred wheat over oats or rye or triticale then the test comparisons would quickly reveal that. In decades of testing however (with the exception of BFO) NEVER, not even ONCE have deer shown any preference to any cereal grain and grazing is across the board equal.
Then of course there are the thought trains that some "buck on a bag" seed has been specially "developed" and has some magical powers so I plant them ALL...side by side in multiple plots on multiple farms all 15- 20 miles apart and ALWAYS the results are the same. Deer eat them all or refuse to touch them all as this pic reveals where all the name brand brassicas were untouched.
People are often under the illusion that mixing lots of "stuff" together will also increase the drawing power but that is rarely the case. It's a simple matter to plant oat, wheat and rye together and then plant strips of each in the center and see if they only eat the "mixed" areas.
Try rye alone, rye and peas, rye peas and oats in the same field and see if it makes any difference at all but you can NOT plant rye in a field by the road and rye and peas in a hidden plot next to a bedding area and expect that to be a fair comparison.
Test drought resistant clovers like Alice and Durana against well known "big buck brand" clovers and you will find out which ones are really the best.
Some things I know to be true in Iowa....acorns in October, freshly combined corn in November and standing soybeans in December trump ALL other crops or food sources! Those things play a huge part in any testing you may do and deer will walk thru cereals, clovers and brassicas all day long to get to those preferred food sources.
Heck...don't take my word for it, each of you have different habitat, deer, crops etc. so do some fair side by side testing of your own to help you make better choices for your whitetails and your budget....
If I am going to stick my neck out because I suspect deception or to disprove a myth I try to use care to make sure my tests are bona fida and with few flaws.
Even at that there will always be those who look upon my information with skepticism so I always encourage landowners to do their own testing and to continue doing so on an ongoing basis as their habitat goals and needs change.
There are some common mistakes that landowners make that often reveal there was indeed no "test" at all and just a perceived thought that something appeared to be better or worse.
One thing we commonly test for is deer preference or lack of it in various forages or varieties within a species and to do this fairly the test comparisons must be side be side and in multiples so that one is not placed on the outside next to a runway while the other is difficult to reach.
An example is corn and soybean test plots....farmers don't plant one hybrid on this side of the farm on rich black soil and another on a clay knob in the back 40. They pick a level fertile spot and plant identical length rows of each variety, fertilize and spray all the same and then harvest and weigh the crop all at the same time.
I often hear people say "I planted WTI clover and Biologic clover and they were all in the Biologic field!"....That only means that they felt safe in that field not that they preferred a certain type of clover.
Both clovers need to be planted in side by side multiples in BOTH fields and then fields monitored with trail cams and observation of both the clovers (for grazing) and of deer feeding in the fields.
Some folks believe that fertilizing clover with nitrogen in the fall will make a difference so I tested that theory but found no difference in either the appearance, growth or grazing in my test plots.
Deer have core areas where they feel safe and they will not travel far from bedding to feed if they don't have to...they are programed to not waste energy and they less they move the safer they are. It takes an extremely attractive food source such as standing soybeans in late December to actually draw deer from any distance so people would be naive to think that a certain clover, cereal or turnip might cause them to abandon all caution to feed on that food source.
Conduct your tests in multiple areas of your farm or property starting with the areas closest to their bedding areas and normal travel areas. Use stakes or flags to mark the different strips containing the test forage varieties or species.
This pic doesn't show the markers but you can see how I planted multiple strips of in this case BFO, Jerry, BFO, and Jerry oats (the Jerry is the lush green color)
The two left strips were also mixed with rye and peas to give me further comparisons.
There are many variables that affect whitetails during a given year and from year to year yet I often hear people exclaim "I planted wheat one year and barley the next and deer definitely preferred the barley!"
That is an impossible statement to make and there was actually no test whatsoever even done. Factors such as a bountiful acorn crop one year and none the next or soybeans next door one year and corn the next all have dramatic effects on whitetails and their usage of any food source.
The size and location of plots or fields is a huge but usually overlooked factor yet often landowners observe dozens of deer in a 50 acre wheat field and then complain bitterly that deer don't like the oats in their 1/4 plot?
Doe groups like their space and will take advantage of larger fields where they can spread out and in doing so create a visual image that leaves a convincing image implanted in ones mind. The truth is though that if that wheat field was oats, or rye or barley...the same deer would be feeding there.
Test different forages on your property and observe the usage of two test comparisons side by side....not yours against the neighbors place.
Others don't even realize what they are saying when they mix multiple forages together and say "yep...they like A better then B or C"....so that means that B and C must be 2 foot tall in clumps all over the field correct??
Of course such is not the case and it is impossible to test a mix of forages against itself.
Testing with exclusion cages can sometimes be tricky unless the two plants are nearly identical in growth habits. Testing a tall ladino clover against a shorter white clover with cages would prove fruitless because one is naturally taller then the other.
Cereals are the same way because some oats have a taller growth stature, rye grows faster and taller then wheat and so on and so forth.
I observe the plants up close as getting down on my knees and examining the plants for evidence of grazing or lack of it. If deer actually preferred wheat over oats or rye or triticale then the test comparisons would quickly reveal that. In decades of testing however (with the exception of BFO) NEVER, not even ONCE have deer shown any preference to any cereal grain and grazing is across the board equal.
Then of course there are the thought trains that some "buck on a bag" seed has been specially "developed" and has some magical powers so I plant them ALL...side by side in multiple plots on multiple farms all 15- 20 miles apart and ALWAYS the results are the same. Deer eat them all or refuse to touch them all as this pic reveals where all the name brand brassicas were untouched.
People are often under the illusion that mixing lots of "stuff" together will also increase the drawing power but that is rarely the case. It's a simple matter to plant oat, wheat and rye together and then plant strips of each in the center and see if they only eat the "mixed" areas.
Try rye alone, rye and peas, rye peas and oats in the same field and see if it makes any difference at all but you can NOT plant rye in a field by the road and rye and peas in a hidden plot next to a bedding area and expect that to be a fair comparison.
Test drought resistant clovers like Alice and Durana against well known "big buck brand" clovers and you will find out which ones are really the best.
Some things I know to be true in Iowa....acorns in October, freshly combined corn in November and standing soybeans in December trump ALL other crops or food sources! Those things play a huge part in any testing you may do and deer will walk thru cereals, clovers and brassicas all day long to get to those preferred food sources.
Heck...don't take my word for it, each of you have different habitat, deer, crops etc. so do some fair side by side testing of your own to help you make better choices for your whitetails and your budget....
dbltree
Super Moderator
While the following is my favorite fall mix....
It's certainly not cut in stone and there are many variables depending on available seed and here a few other options to consider
Peas are the componet that most people are not used to using....don't waste time worrying about if you should plant oats, rye or wheat...add peas and it's a moot point!!
There advantages to adding oats and they can be added at a 60-40/50-50 or 40-60 ratio with rye
For those that feel a mix of cereals is right for them...
The mix I listed first works without fail on every farm I have planted on and only standing soybeans can compete with. Last year deer walked right thru standing corn to feed on the combination I plant!
It feeds deer literally year around!!
and if some other combination of cereals worked better you can bet your boots I would be planting!
Plant whatever combination works for you and your budget but a winter rye and pea combo is one thing that can compete with the neighbors wheat field....
It's certainly not cut in stone and there are many variables depending on available seed and here a few other options to consider
Peas are the componet that most people are not used to using....don't waste time worrying about if you should plant oats, rye or wheat...add peas and it's a moot point!!
There advantages to adding oats and they can be added at a 60-40/50-50 or 40-60 ratio with rye
For those that feel a mix of cereals is right for them...
The mix I listed first works without fail on every farm I have planted on and only standing soybeans can compete with. Last year deer walked right thru standing corn to feed on the combination I plant!
It feeds deer literally year around!!
and if some other combination of cereals worked better you can bet your boots I would be planting!
Plant whatever combination works for you and your budget but a winter rye and pea combo is one thing that can compete with the neighbors wheat field....
dbltree
Super Moderator
Folks often quibble over which cereal grain is best when in reality there is rarely any difference in attractivness between most common cereals and they completely miss out on the one element that virtually assures a plot full of deer...peas!
Austrian Winter Peas, forage or field peas such as 4010, 6040, Trapper and many others are absoutely candy to deer when they are young and tender in the fall. I have found I can plant up to 100#'s per acre with my winter rye and deer will lap them up like crazy!
This is ice cream to deer folks!
Peas are the perfect way to adapt deer to using your plots early on and then the rye and oats will keep them there til the following spring! Cow peas would also work but they are beans rather then peas and will die at first frost.
Welter Seed, Albert lea and many local co-op's or seed and feed stores will carry peas....add inoculate (Welters carries it for 6 bucks) and mix the peas with your rye and oats. Plant the larger seeds roughly an inch deep, cultipack or cover and then spread smaller seeds like clovers and radish seeds and re-cultipack.
A drill works great but I usually broadcast them and lightly till, disc,, harrow etc. the seeds before cultipacking. In my case I use my tiller set so it just stirs the soil and seed while pulling the cultipacker behind...works perfectly!
Austrian Winter Peas, forage or field peas such as 4010, 6040, Trapper and many others are absoutely candy to deer when they are young and tender in the fall. I have found I can plant up to 100#'s per acre with my winter rye and deer will lap them up like crazy!
This is ice cream to deer folks!
Peas are the perfect way to adapt deer to using your plots early on and then the rye and oats will keep them there til the following spring! Cow peas would also work but they are beans rather then peas and will die at first frost.
Welter Seed, Albert lea and many local co-op's or seed and feed stores will carry peas....add inoculate (Welters carries it for 6 bucks) and mix the peas with your rye and oats. Plant the larger seeds roughly an inch deep, cultipack or cover and then spread smaller seeds like clovers and radish seeds and re-cultipack.
A drill works great but I usually broadcast them and lightly till, disc,, harrow etc. the seeds before cultipacking. In my case I use my tiller set so it just stirs the soil and seed while pulling the cultipacker behind...works perfectly!
curt67
New Member
I mix the following:
Winter rye 50-80#'s per acre (56#'s = a bushel)
Spring oats 80-120#'s per acre (32#'s = a bushel)
Austrian Winter Peas 20-80#'s per acre (4010 or 6040 field peas will work fine for 1/2 the price)
Red Clover 8-12#'s per acre or white clover at 6#'s per acre
Groundhog Forage Radish 5#'s per acre
Plant seeds roughly 1-2" deep, and then cultipack to cover, broadcast clover seed and re-cultipack
Plant fall grains no earlier then the last week of August through mid September, earlier is better when adding peas and clover
I am a little confused, do you plant all of this on one acre or do you use a percentage of each one per acre?
Winter rye 50-80#'s per acre (56#'s = a bushel)
Spring oats 80-120#'s per acre (32#'s = a bushel)
Austrian Winter Peas 20-80#'s per acre (4010 or 6040 field peas will work fine for 1/2 the price)
Red Clover 8-12#'s per acre or white clover at 6#'s per acre
Groundhog Forage Radish 5#'s per acre
Plant seeds roughly 1-2" deep, and then cultipack to cover, broadcast clover seed and re-cultipack
Plant fall grains no earlier then the last week of August through mid September, earlier is better when adding peas and clover
I am a little confused, do you plant all of this on one acre or do you use a percentage of each one per acre?
dbltree
Super Moderator
Yes and yes...
That entire mix gets planted together on each acre so I mix roughly 75#'s of rye, 75#'s of oats, 50#'s of peas together...broadcast (or drill them), lightly till them in, cultipack...then...
I sow the clover and radish seeds on the cultipacked soil 10#'s or red clover (or 6 of white clover) and 5#'s of radish seed per acre (I mix the clover and radish seeds together) and re-cultipack to cover.
All of that seed listed above goes together on one acre so if one has a 1/4 acre divide the amounts by 4 (for instance)
Make sense? Holler back if not....
Crimson Arrows
Well-Known Member
Our fields never got planted this year (15 acres) due to rain. This was another benefit of having established alfalfa and clover on the other 8 acres.
I will use the above formula on two acres this fall and see how it goes. I never would have guessed you could plant all at once. It will be like a "Sirloin Stockade" buffet for them Good stuff as always Paul..thanks!
I will use the above formula on two acres this fall and see how it goes. I never would have guessed you could plant all at once. It will be like a "Sirloin Stockade" buffet for them
Good stuff as always Paul..thanks!
dbltree
Super Moderator
Yes...cereal rye, winter rye, field rye, rye grain....all the same things what is NOT the same is ryegrass which is lawn seed.
:way:I usually till and plant the same day or close to it but with work and vacation this month I decided to get a leg up on planting fall cereals, peas and clover. Everything I'm planting rye was brassicas last and of course where I planted brassicas a month ago was rye and clover from the previous fall.
Simple crop rotation that allows me to have ALL the crops I want in the same fields every year...WITHOUT fear of disease and pest problems, yet providing awesome food sources year around.
I had tilled under the brassica plots this spring and planted annual clovers but with more then 2 feet above normal rainfall in SE Iowa in 2010 the annuals slowly began to drown out which of course allowed annual grasses to invade. I clipped in between rains and then sprayed the grasses with Clethodim although no more annuals then had survived I could have just nuked it al with Roundup.
At least they were cleaned up before I plowed them
While it's certainly not necessary to "plow" (discing or rotary tillers work fine) it is the option that works best for me. Stumps in an old pasture raise havoc with my tiller and plowing allows me to find them and go around them with the tiller. Plowing allows me to turn under organic matter and makes tilling with my old and worn out tiller much easier.
A new tiller is somewhere around $1800-3500 so a $500 plow will get a few more years life out of my tiller and eventually drag up all the stumps.
The freshly turned soil against the lush brassicas allows you to see the strips
Why strips rather then just dividing the field?
Whatever works for each landowner but I find that strips in larger fields especially keeps deer from concentrating in one place and they tend to move from strip to strip always in search of a tender morsel better then where they are standing. In the same way as we keep our soils healthy, we want our deer herd healthy and keeping them spread out and moving is a good thing!
If there is only one "block" of brassicas for instance deer may walk out, concentrate in it and decimate them early on. When planted in strips they feed there , move across the rye and peas, feeding there and moving on to the next brassica strip.
In smaller areas I have one strip of each...here there is white clover on the left, brassicas in the center and rye/peas will be planted on the right.
The clover will remain for a number of years but the brassica and rye/pea strips will be rotated each year. I plant red clover with the rye that will feed deer the following spring and summer as well as suppress weeds and fix nitrogen and then I will plow that under for the brassicas in 2011.
The brassica strips will be planted to annual clovers and oats next spring and that turned under for the fall rye planting.
No reason for any landowner to plant one field to one crop for years in a row and while I share the common 3 crop rotation of clover, brassicas and rye/peas...any number of crop rotations can be used. Corn, soybeans and clover/alfalfa for instance or the strips could have 4 or 5 crops, but the one I share is usually the easist and most practical for small plotters to use successfully.
In a few weeks I'll plant my favorite mix of winter rye, oats, peas, forage radish and red clovers and now that it's plowed it won't take me long to get it in the ground....
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scottonbuck
Well-Known Member
Brassicas are in just getting ready to work the ground and plant my Rye, peas and clover mix. If the weather cooperates.
The deer mowed them down last winter so I am increasing the size of the plot of Rye mix.
The deer mowed them down last winter so I am increasing the size of the plot of Rye mix.
Don't know if I should have done it all at once but I nuked ALL my clover plots a few days ago. I'm going to plant 1/2 of each plot with Shot Plot & Alice Clover next week then plant the other 1/2 a week later with rye & Alice Clover. Hopefully the deer will hit the corn & beans while my new crops are coming up.
dbltree
Super Moderator
Lst year I made the mistake of clipping my clover about this time and almost over night deer turned on my brassicas and proceeded to mow them!
In your case they'll probably ber content with soybeans for lunch!
dbltree
Super Moderator
I always incourage everyone to inoculate legume seed especially where that legume has not been previously grown. Where soybeans have been grown in the past 5 years for instance, inoculation is usually not required.
In the fall when planting peas and clovers quite often neither may have been grown there and while not imperitive, it is helpful if the seeds are inoculated.
Here's a good link that describes how and why to inoculate:
Inoculation of Legumes
Always check locally first but if all else fails here's a source where you can order it for less then 10 bucks
Inoculation Source
Not the end of the world if you don't get it put on but whereever possible it's advisable to keep your legumes healthy and attractive to whitetails not to mention the free N you gain as well... :way:
In the fall when planting peas and clovers quite often neither may have been grown there and while not imperitive, it is helpful if the seeds are inoculated.
Here's a good link that describes how and why to inoculate:
Inoculation of Legumes
Always check locally first but if all else fails here's a source where you can order it for less then 10 bucks
Inoculation Source
Not the end of the world if you don't get it put on but whereever possible it's advisable to keep your legumes healthy and attractive to whitetails not to mention the free N you gain as well... :way:
I think next year I'll do some type of rotation with my clover plots and fall plantings so I don't kill off all my clover at one time. My clover was due for replanting though. Any thoughts?
Other than one clover plot they are all 1/4 to 1 acre so I don't have a lot of room to work with. The other plot is about 3 acres.
Other than one clover plot they are all 1/4 to 1 acre so I don't have a lot of room to work with. The other plot is about 3 acres.
magnus
PMA Member
Roadking .... depending on your deer density, 1/2 - 1-ac sized plots are plenty big for clover, brassica, cereal grains, etc. But how old is your clover plot that is "due for replanting"? I have been able to maintain certain clover plots for several years, when in good locations, by mowing, annual top-dressing w/ P&K, select spraying with Clethodim/Poast and 2,4-DB, annual overseeding heavily browsed areas, etc. I suppose at some point its a good idea to turn them under and go with a different planting for a year, but I honestly have been able to maintain certain clover plots in very good condition perenially. Can't see any reason to change the crop unless there are problems....
letemgrow
PMA Member
Here is a fall plot I put in of sunflowers, oats and groundhog forage radishes. I sprayed the sod right after I scatted seeded the plot on the same day and it turned out pretty well so far I think.
I am certain that I had good germination because the thatch helped hold what rains we did get durning that extreme heat. Another area I planted the same way into beans that did not have as much thatch did not have anything growing and I believe that is because the heat robbed all the moisture as they started to germinate.
I am certain that I had good germination because the thatch helped hold what rains we did get durning that extreme heat. Another area I planted the same way into beans that did not have as much thatch did not have anything growing and I believe that is because the heat robbed all the moisture as they started to germinate.
dbltree
Super Moderator
You only need to inoculate legumes...in this case the peas and clover seeds. Clover seed from Welters comes pre-inoculated so it depends on your seed source if you'll need to inoculate the clover.
Peas will need to be inoculated however and Welter seed carries it in small bags for 6 bucks a bag. It's powder/peat like and you simply pour the seed and some inoculate into a bucket...add a tiny bit of water and stir it up.
Easy as pie and while not absoutley imperative it will help your legumes thrive and make their own nitrogen rather then have to "steal" it from the soil...