Cereal Grains and cover crops

[dbltree]

Boz....perhaps the following will answer your question....

Two years ago I tested Jerry and Buck Forage Oats and last year I tested Jerry and Jim oats so this year I planted Jerry and Frank Forage oats....just for fun. Given the opportunity to choose between any other oats and/or rye deer didn't seem to care for the BFO at all but outside of that I have found no preference between oats, rye or combination's of the two in multiple plots on multiple farms.

It is nearly impossible to tell rye from oats or one oat from another at this point.

Frank Forage oats and winter rye

Jerry oats and winter rye

Grazing is all the same...and despite what people are led to believe regarding palatablity never once have I seen deer avoiding one cereal and choosing the other in which case one or the other would be 6" taller then the other!

Some places along the edges they have eaten it to the dirt already...

Most places in the strip plots they are just gleefully wallowing in the lush, protein rich mix of rye, oats, peas and radish

In less then a week each trail cam has 400-500 pictures of deer feeding in the winter rye/oat combo

Bucks....

Doe groups

Flash...

or IR...they stand there and happily feed without a care in the world if they are eating a mouthful of rye or oats

So which do deer like better? Jerry or Frank? Rye or oats? I honestly don't think they give a rip one way or the other...I plant oats not because of the deer but because I know they will freeze off and leave only the rye behind to carry deer through the winter and protect clover seedlings without suffocating them.....

 

[Boz]

Thanks! I seeded rye into a couple acres of soybeans that the deer never let get over six inches on 8/28, checked it last week and rye was doing good. I have it right next to some PlotSpike oats so we'll see if there is any difference to my deer. I also have 3 acres of a failed WTI brassica plot that I'm going to put into winter rye this Friday, hopefully it will get enough growth to attract/feed some deer this fall/winter. And yes I have read the last several years of your posts and now understand that "Buck on the bag" seed is definitely not the way to go. Won't make that rookie mistake again next year, just a day late and lots of dollars short coming to this forum.

 

[Boz]

If I added 100# of urea p/A when planting rye this Friday would the benefits I get in growth this late in the season be worth the investment? I just talked to the local seed guy and he thinks 46-0-0 wouldn't do me any good now and I'd be better off with 13-13-13, 19-19-19 or even 6-24-24, but I'm sure he doesn't have as much experience as you guys so that's why I'm asking here. I'm sure the levels of everything (N/P/K) are low so anything would help, but I just want to get some growth this fall as this plot will be soil tested and put into beans in the spring.

 

[dbltree]

If I added 100# of urea p/A when planting rye this Friday would the benefits I get in growth this late in the season be worth the investment? I just talked to the local seed guy and he thinks 46-0-0 wouldn't do me any good now and I'd be better off with 13-13-13, 19-19-19 or even 6-24-24, but I'm sure he doesn't have as much experience as you guys so that's why I'm asking here. I'm sure the levels of everything (N/P/K) are low so anything would help, but I just want to get some growth this fall as this plot will be soil tested and put into beans in the spring.

At this stage of the game any fertilizer applications are iffy but the rye will respond to urea (nitrogen) faster/better then anything else.

Nothing wrong with going with triple 19 though because P&K can be stockpiled and utilized later...:way:

 

[dbltree]

October 7th 2010

So do deer really like winter rye, oats, forage peas, forage radish and clover??

The proof is in the pudding or so they say...

and where there's smoke....

there's fire

Young bucks learn what tastes good and adapt...

and keep coming back as they grow older...

this buck spent 20 minutes gorging himself on winter rye

Barely moving a few feet in the lush garden size plot of rye, oats, peas and GHFR

I notice the bigger bucks get the rye strip

I'd hunt that blind but I'm afraid of being trampled to death getting in there...

The combination of cereals, peas and radish works well for me and all of the deer you see are on multiple farms and all choosing these plots over corn, beans and alfalfa...partially of course because they prefer the safety of the secluded feeding areas.

I encouraged a number of people who choose to plant rye and wheat together to plant some strips of individual cereals side by side in the same field and more then one has commented that deer have shown no preference...so much for the palatability myths.

If deer eat most cereals without preference then why not plant the one that is higher in protein, grows longer into winter, starts earlier in the spring, grows on almost any soils and is better for your soils?

Winter rye...it's whats for dinner around the Doubletree Ranch.... :way:

 

[scottonbuck]

Paul,
In my rye and pea plots I have some thin and bare spots from water if you can believe that. I wanted to thicken up those areas but am on the fence of deciding what to do. I would like to broadcast a more rye seed in those areas but the forecast shows no rain for the next 10 days. So my question is do you think the heavy dews we have been having will be enough to germinate or will it be just wasted seed. The seed is cheap so I just want to know if I am wasting my time. I really dont want to disc it and jepordize what I have already. Maybe I should just leave it and hope it fills in on its own and be satisfied with a mediocore plot. Any thoughts on my ramblings would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

 

[dbltree]

Paul,
In my rye and pea plots I have some thin and bare spots from water if you can believe that. I wanted to thicken up those areas but am on the fence of deciding what to do. I would like to broadcast a more rye seed in those areas but the forecast shows no rain for the next 10 days. So my question is do you think the heavy dews we have been having will be enough to germinate or will it be just wasted seed. The seed is cheap so I just want to know if I am wasting my time. I really don't want to disc it and jeopardize what I have already. Maybe I should just leave it and hope it fills in on its own and be satisfied with a mediocre plot. Any thoughts on my ramblings would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Dew isn't going to be enough so you'll be at the mercy of the weather regardless. Rye can germinate at 34 degrees and grow at 38 degrees so you have some leeway in that area so i would plan on broadcasting more seed just before a rain.

If we don't get rain for weeks yet then I would just let it go for this fall and remember you can frost seed clover into thin areas late this winter...

 

[scottonbuck]

Awesome thanks dbltree I will just hold on to that bag of rye untill maybe later next week it looks like we have a chance for rain. Just hope to have a nice field to feed the deer thru winter. Peas came up great but some have been drowned out, I have just clover at the north end and it can hardly keep up with the grazing, hopefully the rye pulls thru with this sunshine and I wont have to worry about anything.
Thanks again.

 

[waylonb19]

At what stage do you feel the rye/oats become less palatable?

 

[dbltree]

October 11th, 2010

At what stage do you feel the rye/oats become less palatable?

I'm not sure I have an accurate across the board answer to that question because there are so many variables not the least of which are adjacent competitive crops, acorns etc.

We fertilized heavily based on expected grazing pressure and the condition of the same plantings last year by late December in an attempt to "stockpile" feed as we refer to it in the livestock business.

That means forcing some excess growth that is beyond what deer/livestock can eat in early fall so that it will be available later. Not possible in summer because the plants would mature but in the fall at some point cold weather will first slow and then stop growth altogether leaving it at a stage still palatable to deer but perhaps taller then normal.

Depending on soil types and grazing pressure some of our plantings have exploded to 12-18" high such as you see here.

The peas are being grazed harder now

although where hidden they still reach for sunlight

in the shadows below you can see the clover seedlings snuggled underneath

While I would prefer to see cereals at 6-8" right now the deer obviously could care less at this point

They continue to forage in the rye/oat/pea/radish/clover plantings heavily each night, focusing on them despite the ready availability of corn, soybeans, alfalfa and acorns.

It seems this has been a year of extremes here in Iowa, with 30" above normal rainfall that lasted well into September. Warm wet weather caused the cereals to explode and grow at a pace faster then normal so as always it's difficult to be certain of anything with any planting.

The good thing about this combination is that regardless of what happens with the cereals the peas and radish plants will continue to attract well into the first of the year.

Once colder weather finally moves in, growth of the cereals will slow to a crawl and then stop altogether and I have seen oats starting to head out that deer ate to the ground before spring.

3 weeks of very dry weather is starting to slow growth here also but I'll continue to share usage and see if the height/growth stage has any effect on grazing as we head int early winter....:way:

 

[waylonb19]

Thanks for answering...My plot is about right with the one you showed in the first picture. It just seems they aren't eating the rye/oats like I figured and was curious if it has gotten to tall (less palatable) then they like. On the other hand they seem to be starting on the peas like you mentioned. They are eating the white clover I have around this plot the most though.

 

[dbltree]

Yeah...yours is getting plenty tall too! Last year it was dry all September and the cereals were slow growing and this year with all the rain they are growing like crazy....seems like we can't win sometimes.

You are wise to have multiple food source in one plot so you cover all bases and eventually the clover will freeze out and the rye and peas will remain.

Keep us posted on usage in late Nov./Dec....

 

[waylonb19]

Yeah I got ground hog radishes in there too. Just didn't take any pics. Hopefully they like this mix better then they did my brassicas last yr.

 

[dbltree]

October 14th, 2010

This is winter rye and GroundHog forage radish I overseeded into a decimated brassica plot on the same day that I sowed the rye/pea/radish combination conventionally. The brassicas had been heavily fertilized at planting in July but heavy rainfall no doubt has left little nitrogen available, still it doesn't look half bad!

This is right next to the overseeded strip, conventionally tilled/planted and 200#'s of urea incorporated at planting.

The rye combination plots are planted right along side lush white clover plots and are being grazed pretty hard right now

Close inspection reveals that both rye

and forage radishes

are being grazed hard on this farm

previously I posted pics of the same rye/oat/pea/radish/clover combination also fertilized with 200#'s of urea that was getting plenty tall despite grazing, yet here they are keeping it well trimmed!

Planting rates and use of nitrogen then can be a little bit of trial and error and can vary by year with different weather and over time, increasing usage by deer. Not always a one size fits all in that regard....and as deer adapt over time if plots are kept hidden and secure one has to adapt with it to keep up with them.

The plantings I posted earlier are in relatively new plots only a few years old while these are 15 years old and generations of deer have adapted to feeding there. Note that the plots are surrounded on all sides by 8' tall NWSG that provides screening, bedding and safe travel to timbered areas.

The type of feed is not nearly as important as a safe, secure, unmolested place to feed and as deer adapt and take advantage of that it is not unlike running cattle, you have to increase yields by every means possible to keep up with increased grazing pressure....and increase harvests as well.... :way:

 

[dbltree]

This is winter rye and oats in my one and only semi-shaded plot...the oats are really going to town!

They have tons of feed literally only feet away so they really aren't feeding in this little plot, it's more of a "shooting" spot as they stop there before entering a field and there is a ground blind at this spot.

It's very shaded and very poor soil but once the leaves start to drop there is more sunshine and the cereals always thrive there whereas brassicas do not.

If you have a semi-shaded spot with at least partial sunlight then rye is a good option because it is better able to survive in the low PH, often poor soil associated with these woodland openings....

 

[dbltree]

October 23, 2010

The winter rye, oats, peas, radish and clover combination is pretty lush right now!

This pic shows the later planted plot compared to the water logged brassicas that are slowly recovering from both too much rain and heavy grazing

Deer have been walking the dividing line along each strip and have kept it grazed down

I planted the peas at 100#'s per acre so some of them have survived longer this year!

The Groundhog radish in the mix has grown rapidly despite not a drop of rain in 3 weeks

Deer are just now starting to hit the tops, focusing previously on the rye and oats instead. The roots have grown substantially in 7 weeks too!

In another plot that is smaller and without other feed around, deer are keeping it well mowed.

and the alfalfa/red clover seeding is doing well

The pictures reveal some of the advantages of "strip plotting" because it assures that any one plot will be unlikely to end up a complete failure and the fact that deer walk the strip edges makes cam census easier. Deer don't just hover in one part of the field and move across the strips in search of the best morsels of feed.

Hinge cutting/edge feathering to block off multiple runways to the fields allows one to ambush deer in travel corridors leading to these plots....sweet setup! :way:

 

[Andy in Ohio]

Lack of rain

Doubletree,

I have been reading your forum for over a year and love it. Thanks for the information.

I planted 50 lbs of rye, 80 lbs of oats and 5 lbs of Alice white clover per acre in southern ohio near the ohio river. We have a drought and I planted it on September 19. Our average frost date is about 2 weeks after yours. The ground was completly dry and we have only got .2 inch of rain since planted. We only have 0.9" since July 1.

Very very few sprouts have come up. We are supposed to get about 1/2 - 3/4 inch of rain in the next few days and stay in the upper 70's for the rest of the week with no signs of frost. Will the seed in the ground for over 5 weeksstill come up if it finally rains?

If all else fails, I will frost seed more alice clover in the winter if the rye and oats is a complete failure. Any thoughts?

 

[dbltree]

Will the seed in the ground for over 5 weeks still come up if it finally rains?

If all else fails, I will frost seed more alice clover in the winter if the rye and oats is a complete failure. Any thoughts?

It's possible but I suspect not....that's a long time for seed to lay there and much of it probably germinated and then died.

You could probably have overseeded some more rye ahead of the rain and still had time for some growth but for certain frost seed some more clover in mid to late March...

 

[dbltree]

October 26th 2010

Deer are wading knee deep in the lush winter rye, oat, pea, radish and clover plots

and are fat as butter!

The rut is just about to start here in Iowa so where there are does....

Regardless if they eat a thing in these plots you can rest assured the bucks will be checking out the girls there

Where plots are smaller and cam coverage better then we see the bucks foraging on the mix

Because all of our plots have strips of clover, strips of brassicas and strips of the rye combination there is always feed and something for whatever suits their fancy.

Here the bucks are foraging on the lush white clover in the same plot

Despite the fact that freshly harvested corn and soybeans have left the ground strewn with grain, my cams average at least a 100 pics a day of deer foraging in the plots of green forage.

along with the occasional argument

The strip plots have food sources year around that are only yards away from the security of thick dense cover creating a combination that deer readily adapt too. They simply have no reason to leave, but...it is not because of rye, clover, beans or any one "magic" food source, it is because of a complete habitat program that provides ALL their needs ALL year long...rather then just a "shooting" plot that sends them back to the neighbors when it's gone...

 

[Packnasty]

My virgin post.

Very informative...thanks for the post. I'm lappin' it up like a dog. You've got me sold on rye. Can't wait to use it. With some friends, we've been mixing wheat and oats with turnips with some good success, but I'd agree the wheat is a little expensive.