Cereal Grains and cover crops

[dbltree]

Re: Cereal Grains - Buckwheat cover crop

Originally Posted By: huntyak
Paul, I just had a great conversation with Welter seed and probably talked the most helpful seed store individual I ever have! I ordered rye, oats, red clover, alfalfa and DER (brassicas). I am going to plant my alfalfa, and the others this weekend because of time constraints and my farm being 2 hrs away. Is it too early?? If so, I can have a friend help me out. Thanks!

It's perfect timing for alfalfa and brassicas but it's too early for oats and rye.

If you plant cereal grains now they will get to tall and rank and unpalatable to deer by October.

You need to wait 2-4 weeks yet, last week in August perhaps thru Labor Day weekend.

 

[dbltree]

Re: Cereal Grains - Buckwheat cover crop

Originally Posted By: DEERBOY
So dbltree if I'm reading this correctly about labor day weekend I could plant rye with red clover seed and it would work out ok.

That would be perfect timing!

You have a few weeks either way and you can go back thru this thread and notice the posting dates when I planted various grains and see how they turned out.

You can plant rye way up into late October but it will have limited growth for hunting season.

If I can I try to shoot for late August so it has time to get some decent growth before Oct first. Growth depends of course on soil moisture to some extent. So if we don't get rain, germination can be delayed a little.

Labor Day works out for most food plotters because most have the long weekend off and it's a great time to "git er done" and you'll have a great fall food plot!

Remember: use FIELD RYE not ryegrass!! Many ag stores/seed supply workers have no idea what you need or are talking about. So you need to be certain of not only what you are asking for but...that your getting what you asked for...

 

[dbltree]

Re: Cereal Grains - Buckwheat cover crop

Originally Posted By: huntyak
Is there anyway to plant alfalfa and oats together as I think you said alfalfa would be OK to do now but Oats would be to early. Any suggestions? I guess I could just do alfalfa now and if it fails do oat/rye combo later.

If you plant alfalfa correctly and we get occasional rains there is no reason why it should fail. It should provide some fall grazing also, just going to be a little light...tender and tasty though!

 

[dbltree]

Re: Cereal Grains - Inoculate Legumes

So...I'm encouraging all of you to include red clover in your cereal grain food plots this fall to take advantage of it's ability to fix/produce "free" nitrogen for next years food plot.

It can only do that it you either buy preinoculated seed or add inoculate just before you seed. Regardless if I use preinoculated seed or not I always add fresh inoculate!

It's cheaper then a gallon of gas and it's good insurance! The inoculate bacteria will not remain alive on the seed for long, so preinoculated seed is NOT always a sure bet.

White clover and alfalfa produce/fix higher amounts of N then does red clover but seed is expensive and some red clovers are inexpensive and used soley for the purpose of being used for green manure/nitrogen production.

The following links will help you understand how legumes fix nitrogen, which ones produce the most N, how plants can use N fixed by legumes and the importance of using fresh inoculate.

Inoculating Forage Legumes

INOCULATION OF FORAGE LEGUMES

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Inoculation Recipe* (Sample)
••Place 25 lbs of seed in a tub.
••Use a commercial sticking agent or make one by diluting syrup or molasses with water, using 9 parts
of water to one part of syrup. Shake well.
••Add only enough of the "sticker" solution to moisten the 25 lbs of seed and mix thoroughly, coating
every seed with sticker. Don't add too much liquid! If you do, seed will stick together and will not flow
through the seeder.
••Add 6-7 ounces of dry inoculant. mix to coat and dry the seeds. This is four times the rate
recommended by most manufacturers, but is usually necessary for good nodulation in Kentucky,
especially for alfalfa, bird's-foot trefoil or crown vetch. Seeds should be covered with inoculant.
••Air dry the seeds if necessary by spreading them in the shade. To speed the drying process, add
more peat-based inoculant or a small amount of finely ground limestone.
••Plant seed as soon as possible after inoculation. If they can't be planted immediately, store in a cool
place. Repeat inoculation if seeds are not planted within 24 hours. Do no leave inoculated seed in direct
sunlight. Slightly moist soil provides the best conditions for bacteria.
*Adapted from North Carolina State University Publication AG-226. </div></div>

Inoculate Source Less the 5 bucks will inoculate 50 pounds of seed!


Nitrogen Fixation in Forage Legumes
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Prepare a sticking agent as follows:

Ø mix 60 g of syrup or molasses with 240 g of water - shake or stir well; or

Ø mix 1 cup (200 g) sugar with 2 cups (450 g or 450 ml) of water; or

Ø just use milk

Do not use cola drinks or other carbonated beverages - their pH is near 2.0 and harmful to bacteria </div></div>

Cool Season Legumes

LEGUME NITROGEN FIXATION AND TRANSFER This link is very important to read and understand but this is an important part of it.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A common misconception is that the nitrogen is released into the soil from the legume roots. Research has shown there is a release of some soluble nitrogen compounds such as amino acids and ammonium from intact legume roots and nodules, but it is an insignificant amount. The primary pathways for nitrogen transfer from the legume to the soil are through grazing livestock and decomposition of dead legume plant material. When legume forage is consumed by grazing livestock, from 80 to 90% of the nitrogen in that forage passes through the animal and is excreted in the urine and feces. Unfortunately about 50% of the nitrogen in the urine is lost through volatilization. Another problem is the distribution of feces and urine on the pasture. With continuous grazing at low stocking rates, much of the animal excreta is concentrated around the water source and under shade trees. Animal excreta distribution is improved with moderate to high stocking rates and with rotational grazing systems where stock density is higher.

The root system and unused leaves and stems of annual legumes die at plant maturity and are decomposed by soil microbes over time. Nitrogen contained in this plant material is released over time and is available to other plants. However, because most of this nitrogen is not available until after the legume dies, only grasses that follow the legume growing season can use it. This is a major nitrogen transfer pathway for cool-season annual legumes overseeded on warm-season perennial grasses because the clover-growing period occurs before the warm-season grass-growing period.

</div></div>

By this we understand that we need to plow/disc or till under the red clover preceeding our next years crop of cereal grains or brassicas. Only then will the N be released an available to the next crops.

Forage Legumes and Nitrogen Production

Legume Crops Fix Nitrogen

Beyond Red Clover: Legume Choices for Wisconsin Pastures

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Red Clover (Trifolium pratense L.) is the single most widely planted forage legume in the world. </div></div>

RED CLOVER <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Two cuttings red clover harvested for hay with only
stubble and roots for plowdown will provide 40-60
pounds per acre of nitrogen credits. Two-thirds of the
nitrogen is in the above ground growth, with one-third
of the nitrogen below ground</div></div>

Red Clover Seed Source

Value of Legumes for Plowdown Nitrogen
This link explains why our red clover (or any forage legume) needs to be in the ground and growing for at least 6 months and preferably 12-18 months.


Nitrogen Contribution to Succeeding Corn from Alfalfa and Red Clover
Legumes and grains

Understanding Nitrogen (N)

Congratulations! You now know everything there is to know about legumes, fixing nitrogen, inoculating seed and the value of it all...well...almost..... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

 

[dbltree]

Re: Cereal Grains - Inoculate Legumes

Originally Posted By: huntyak
Great post! If cost is not an issue, is it BETTER to plant white clovers for nitrogen every year that you plow up for a fall seeding than red?

4 pounds of Alice White Clover is still less then 20 bucks an acre and it can produce almost 200 units of nitrogen vs 110 units for red clover so technically white clover is better.

For brassicas and fall grains however they will never use that much N compared to corn which would happily use all it could.

Red Clover might produce more mass for plow-down but otherwise whites would be fine. I guess it would just be hard for me to plow down a beautiful year old stand of Alice!

 

[dbltree]

Re: Cereal Grains

Should I mow the rye if the deer don't keep it short?

That's about the only option that might work for you at this point. Perhaps deer will keep it grazed down for you.

Rye does grow fast so keep us posted on how yours does...won't hurt anything but it's likely not going to be attractive to deer planted this early.

Welcome to IW!

 

[dbltree]

Re: Cereal Grains

On one of the farms I hunt the farmer had about 10 acres of what he called rye planted and he mowed it and baled it a few times per year. It stayed green all winter and the deer absolutely POUNDED it. They would dig through a foot of snow to get to the stuff. The field was planted in this for several years and I'm about positive he didn't replant it every year. From reading this thread I assumed it was the same as the grain rye that is talked about here, but after the above comment I'm not so sure. I just figured it kept growing since he never let it go to seed.

I guess my question is this- Is there something else that stays green all winter that can be referred to as rye? And how long will the grain rye grow if never allowed to seed out? I have missed that stuff ever since it went back into corn.

Rye is like wheat...it grows quickly in the spring (after being fall planted) then matures, turns brown and like wheat the grain can be harvested via a combine.

Ryegrass is a "grass" and nothing like rye but deer aren't really that crazy about it.

Field rye will stay green all winter and deer will pound it all winter and early spring but I can't see anyone baling it several times...maybe once in early spring?

I'm not really sure what the farmer you are talking about had planted??

He may have re-planted it and you weren't aware of it??

 

[dbltree]

Re: Cereal Grains - annual fall rye grain

Originally Posted By: timekiller
I'm going to have to ask him, and find out what it was and how he managed the field since its got my curiosity now.

Yes...I'm curious myself

Here are some pics of field rye:

From the Living Crop Museum

April Rye

May Rye

June Rye

July Rye

My own rye in September (seeded late August)

Oct 1st

Nov 1st...grazed to the ground!

12-12 Rye

March Rye - you would swear it is dead!

but it sure is a busy place!

April Rye it springs to life!

Cereal Rye

Cereal Rye in the NW

Quote:
Quick facts: Cereal rye
Common names Cereal rye, rye
Hardiness zone 3 (see Figure 1)
pH tolerance 4.5*8.0; optimum is 5.0*7.0
Best soil type Wide range, tolerates poor fertility
Flood tolerance Low
Drought tolerance High
Shade tolerance Moderate
Mowing tolerance High until maturity
Dry matter accumulation Kill at 2*3 tons/acre
N accumulation 70 lb/acre at 3 tons/acre
N to following crop None
Uses Survives in cold, droughty, and/or infertile soils. Use to protect soil, smother weeds, scavenge N, and improve tilth. Often planted with legumes.




All About Cereal Rye

Using Rye as a green manure

Winter Rye

Rye- Grain

Rye as a cover crop

Small Grain Cover Crops for Corn and Soybean

Cover Crops of the midwest

Cover Cropsin the Corn belt

Rye is one of my favorite cereal grains because of it's winter hardiness, it's ability to withstand heavy grazing and recover and it's merits as a cover crop/soil builder.

Quote:
Cereal rye is an excellent choice as a winter cover crop because it rapidly provides ground cover to hold the soil in place. It has deep roots that help prevent soil from becoming compacted in annually tilled fields. Rye’s extensive root system enables it to scavenge nutrients from the soil profile. In a no-till situation, it also can help control weeds.





Rye is an N scavenger...

Quote:
Rye, like wheat, will respond to nitrogen (N) fertilizer. When it follows corn and other crops fertilized with nitrogen, however, it seldom requires additional N. Rye has a good reputation for scavenging residual soil nitrogen when it follows other crops, and it is commonly grown for this purpose. Research indicates that rye can extract 40 to 80 pounds per acre of residual N. This reduces the potential for nitrate leaching into groundwater and conserves nitrogen fertilizer inputs. See the two enclosed articles about rye’s use as a nitrogen-scavenging catch crop. Medium soil-test levels of phosphorus and potassium will be adequate for rye grown as a cover crop.





Principles of Sustainable Weed Management for Croplands

Weed Control With Winter Rye

Quote:
Winter rye provides much more effective weed control than spring-seeded small grains and more than winter wheat. Late summer cultivation to prepare a proper rye seedbed kills many weeds. Rye germinates and grows rapidly when planted early in September when soil temperatures are high and if moisture conditions are adequate. Rye seedlings with their rapid growth tend to compete with and smother germinating weeds in the fall. Early vigorous spring growth provides strong competition to spring-germinating weeds. Likewise, the early rye harvest helps to prevent weeds from maturing and shattering seed. This is especially true for a weed like wild oats.

Chemical compounds that inhibit weed seed germination have been extracted from rye plant residues in laboratory experiments.

Wild oat, ragweed, dandelion, common lambsquarters, redroot pigweed, Canada thistle and quackgrass are weed species reported to be controlled by rye. These and many other weeds have their growth retarded by vigorous growth of the rye plant. Mature plant residue after harvest continues to shade the soil surface reducing weed seed germination in late summer.








Hard to beat field rye in your management program

 

[dbltree]

Re: Cereal Grains

He could have planted perennial rye grass.

I agree...it's the part about deer actually liking it that baffles me?? Normally they don't pay much attention to it but maybe they had nothing else or...there was clover mixed with it?

Perennial ryegrass is less winter-hardy than orchardgrass and tall fescue and less drought-tolerant than smooth bromegrass. Studies in Wisconsin, however, suggest that perennial ryegrass is able to overwinter in colder climates, even where snow cover is unreliable. In the Pacific Northwest, perennial ryegrass will survive most winter weather conditions. However, during very harsh winters, it may winter kill. Thus, it should be considered a short-lived perennial.

Not exactly a "stay green" all winter food source like field rye either???

Perennial Ryegrass

 

[dbltree]

Re: Cereal Grains

if you planted it too early wouldn't the deer still eat it? just before you were hunting there?

You bet...they will eat any cereal grains up to a point and then as the pictures show, the grains get to tough, rank and unpalatable and they leave it alone.

That's why timing your fall planting of cereal grains is important so that the lush sweet tender growth coincides with hunting season.

 

[timekiller]

Re: Cereal Grains

Oh boy, now I've got us all confused.

I called the farmer's son and spoke with him about it today. At first he thought it was just alfalfa, but when I mentioned that his dad had referred to it as rye he remembered fall planting it in rye at first. He thought that they must have put alfalfa in it at some point because the rye wouldn't carry over year to year.
From what I remember (it's been 4-5 years now) the field looked like the pics of the April rye, but I don't ever remember it growing straight up like the older pictures. Maybe some seeds could have dropped and it replanted itself?

I'm just going to stop by and talk to the landowner because I'm really confused now. I remember shooting geese off it during the early season and it was just like a field of really thick grass. The deer would just pour out of the bottoms and cross no tilled corn stubble to get to this field during the late ML season. There were also two other alfalfa fields I can think of in the immediate area, so it wasn't like it was their only choice.

Maybe it was alfalfa like his son thought, but I remember it staying green and I do know what that looks like.

I better just go find out first hand before I drive myself crazy.

 

[dbltree]

Re: Cereal Grains

My buckwheat was just starting to go to seed

and a few weeds were making there way also

So I tilled it all under and re-planted buckweat. Something to think about...annual weeds and grasses make great green manure just like tilling under buckwheat...as long as you don't let them go to seed! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

I'll till it under again in late August and plant oats, rye and clover.

It all makes organic matter and helps enrich the soil so don't get to excited about a few weeds in a plot that your going to till under. Every time you till...more weeds will germinate, no way around it. We just want to make sure we till,clip or spray at some point so they don't leave another 100 years worth of seed there... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

In the brassica thread I showed pictures of tilling under clover...whole lot easier then buying, hauling and spreading urea to provide nitrogen. And dry fertilizer will do nothing to build up your soil and create a moisture retaining nutrient rich soil.

Little tough tilling down nice plots of clover though...

This plot of red clover was covered with dew so looks a little funny but it sure tilled up nice.

This is berseem and red clover

Just like "harvesting" money

A tremendous amount of organic matter and potential N as it breaks down

It takes a little bit to till that much under (I clipped it a week earlier to shorten it some)

Just filling the top layer of soil with foliage and roots that create a literal "sponge" to hold moisture and nurtients.

Forget what it looks like...pretty is a s pretty does

Eventually one can get it stirred in and chopped up

Remember that for the most nitrogen benefits, clover should be allowed to grow at least 6 months but even if it only has 3 months it still provides a portion of your next crops nitrogen requirements.

Add red or white clover with your late summer/early fall plots to till under next fall and you will have somewhere around 100-200#'s of free nitrogen.

Brassicas can use roughly 75#'s of N and cereal grains easily a 100#'s so most clovers could easily provide all your N requirements.

A good crop of Alice white clover plowed under the second year could provide N requirements for a crop of corn or sorghum.

4#'s of Alice seed (or any good white clover)can be at your door for roughly 20 bucks vs $160-200 for urea not to mention the soil benefits of tilling under green manure.

Alfalfa is also capable of providing up to 200 units of N and with roots that can go nearly 10 feet into subsoil it can pull nutrients from deep in the subsoil, later to be tilled in on the surface. Something to keep in mind when your alfalfa plot begins to thin and it's time to rotate to something else. Corn or brassicas would be great followups to alfalfa.

It's still way to early to plant cereal grains, late August being the best time frame so you have plenty of time to pickup some red or white clover seed from nannslayer, Welters or your favorite local seed source.

4#'s of white clover or 12#'s of red clover...till, broadcast or drill oats, rye, winter wheat, roll, seed clover, roll again...easy as pie and money in the bank! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

Some additional information can be gleaned from gardeners...the principal is all the same.

The Living Soil

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The soil is a living ecosystem, although most living components are
invisible to the naked eye. As soil microorganisms, insects, and worms feed
on organic matter (e.g. compost, manure, and many manufactured fertilizers
and pesticides) nutrients become available for plant use. Their activity also
significantly improves soil structure, reducing compaction, and increasing
water and air movement.
Soil organisms do much of the work for gardeners of improving soil tilth
(suitability of a soil to support plant growth, especially as it relates to ease
of tillage, fitness for a seedbed, impedance to seedling emergence and root
penetration) and making nutrients available to plants.
Encouraging their efforts is central to building a healthy fertile soil
supportive to optimum plant growth. They require an environment that is
damp (like a wrung out sponge, i.e. – near field capacity) but not soggy (has
air – i.e.- aerobic), between 50 – 90o F. They require organic matter from
soil amendments (compost, crop residues) and/or mulch as a food source for
bacteria and fungi.
</div></div>

Soil Quality

Soil Managment

Soil Management and fertilization

Soil Biology

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">How can you benefit from better management of the soil biological community?

Reduced input costs. Less fertilizer may be needed if nutrient cycling becomes more efficient and less fertilizer is lost from the rooting zone. Fewer pesticides are needed where a diverse set of pest-control organisms are active. As soil structure improves, tillage becomes easier and potentially less costly.

Pollution prevention. Soil organisms filter and detoxify chemicals and absorb the excess nutrients that would otherwise become pollutants when they reach groundwater or surface water.

Improved yield and crop quality. Soil organisms are key to forming good soil structure or tilth. Good tilth promotes better root development and water storage. Many microorganisms enhance crop growth or reduce the activity of disease organisms that can degrade the quality of food and feed.

</div></div>

Benefits of Cover Crops for Soil Health

Soil Health menu

 

[dbltree]

Re: Cereal Grains

Originally Posted By: huntyak
Is there a huge difference between winter wheat and rye as far as deer preferences?

A huge difference...no, rye or winter triticale are considered more palatable and better suited to grazing.

Rye has so many more positive attributes that to me it just doesn't make sense to plant wheat.

That being said... thousands of acres of winter wheat are grazed through the winter months by cattlemen across states like Kansas and Oklahoma. They then harvest the wheat and market the grain whereas rye is not that profitable to market.

Rye is more commonly planted after farmers harvest corn early for silage, sometimes they fly the seed on before harvest. Then they pasture cattle on it thru the winter and early spring.

Don't give deer to much credit...they are opportunistic...give them any cereal grain in a safe place and they are going to eat it...period!

Everyone gets caught up in all the hype and big ads but as far as I'm concerned you can throw all that out the window.

Plant rye...they will eat it...plant wheat...they will eat it...so why not plant the one that will improve your soil, help you with weed control and is able to survive quite honestly on almost nothing. Poor soils, drought, over grazing...don't even phase rye.

Add some oats to "sweeten" the pot and your good to go...until they combine a field of corn a 1/4 mile away, then all bets are off.

 

[dbltree]

Re: Cereal Grains

Originally Posted By: guardianhntr
What is that damn weed in the photo? And what can I spray on my clover to kill them without getting the clover? I have been weedwhacking all summer and they are starting to get the best of me.

Just ragweed ...good link to broadleaf weed I'D's here: Broadleaf weeds

Use 2-4DB Butyrac 200 to control broadleaves in clover and alfalfa.

 

[dbltree]

Re: Cereal Grains

Originally Posted By: nannyslayer
Also, another thing that dbltree should add is that rye will bring nutrients up from deep in the soil, while winter wheat is more likely to use it up.

I have a few links on my work computer about rye as a cover crop and how they improve the soil fertility. I'll try to remember to post them up.



Thanks Brian! I did add some more links regarding that very subject back in the rye post a page back, but we welcome any additional info for sure.

I've been planting rye since I was old enough to run a tractor so were talking 40+ years and it's never let me down.

Ever wonder why the DOT uses rye rather then wheat or whatever on new road banks?....

 

[dbltree]

Re: Cereal Grains

Originally Posted By: huntyak
If I was going to use fertilizer on my rye in 2 weeks and many recommend 100# per acre of 46% urea, what would Triple 13 be? 13% urea? I have two plots to do, one about 1/2 acre and the other about 3/4. Thought about putting in 1 bushel per plot (overkill but why not . Thought about adding fertilizer but wanted to know exactly what to ask for at the elevator as they said 46% urea they were unfamiliar with.

Yikes! If they are "unfamiliar" with urea...that's scary! Urea is one of the most common forms of nitrogen (in dry form) in the world.

No matter...13-13-13 contains 13% nitrogen in every 100 pounds which means to get 78#'s of N we need 600 pounds per acre!! Yikes again!!

You see why we try to use a high nitrogen fertilizer such as urea!

Ammoniumnitrate is another source of N but it is nearly impossible to get since McVeigh used to blow up a building

Another option for small plots is to buy lawn fertilizer such as is available at Wal-Mart or Menards. They usually contain 28-29% nitrogen but if they contain weed killers DO NOT apply to clovers or brassicas unless you till it in before planting.

Bagged fertilizer is getting tougher to get as hardly anyone uses it in that form anymore.

I would also add that rye is a nitrogen scavenger so you don't need that much N if it's tough to find.

This is just general fertilizer facts and information that I posted in the brassica thread to answer the question "what is triple 19". Understanding more about commercial fertilizer and how we can replace all or part from natural crop rotations is important as prices rise.

Triple 19 is just a fertilizer combination of NITROGEN, POTASSIUM, AND PHOSPHORUS The "19"just means there is 19#'s in every 100#'s or 19%. There are common fertilizer mixes such as 6-24-24, 12-12-12, 19-19-19 46-0-0 etc. etc.

All the "numbers" tell you is how much of each of the 3 main elements are in a bag of fertilizer. If you buy it in bulk from an ag supply source, they can mix any combination your require. This is why we take soil tests so we know what nutrients our soils may be lacking and what might be required for the crop we'll be growing.

Sometimes you can buy fertilizers on sale at Wal-Mart, Menards, TSC and others...fertilizer is fertilizer as long as you understand what is in it.

DO NOT apply lawn fertilize containing week killers over the top of brassicas...it contains 2-4D and will kill them. Mix it in the soil and it won't be a problem. (cheaper to buy it without weedkiller however...)

Triple 19 is a good all around mix of equal amounts of N-P-K but brassicas prefer plenty of nitrogen so that's where the "300#'s" comes in. Using 300 pounds will give you 57 pounds of each element. You could get away with a 100#'s of 46-0-0 urea which is just nitrogen and does not contain the P and K elements.

at $20-25 a 50# bag, 300#'s could easily run $120-150 per acre which makes 15 bucks worth of red clover seed seem like a pretty darn good deal...huh?

Here are some links to help you understand a little more about fertilizer and what the "numbers" mean.


About Fertilizer

NITROGEN, POTASSIUM, AND PHOSPHORUS

Fertilizer

Nutrient Topics Use the drop window to explore all types of nutrient topics and explore NPK topics including soil testing.

Nutrient Cycling & Maintaining Soil Fertility

Fertility Management in Organic Crop Systems

Nutrient Considerations for Diversified Cropping Systems

Soil Test Interpretation Guide

Interpreting Soil Test Results

Interpretation of Soil Testing Results

Results and Interpretation of Soil Tests

Soil Fertility Management

Mind Your P's and K's

You Can't Afford Not to Lime

Understanding fertlizers

Fertilizer Reckoning for the Mathematically Challenged

Bagged Fertilizer Labeling Requirements

Glossary of Terms

 

[dbltree]

Re: Cereal Grains - All about Oats

1 bushel seems like more than 32#?

32#'s of oats per bushel, 56#'s of winter rye per bushel..that's a fact!

Ok...if there is something that will stir the pot or fan the flames...it's the controversy over which oats to plant???

We hear about winter oats, forage oats, feed oats...blah blah blah....what we really want to know is which ones are sure to bring in monster bucks...right???

Oats are something I have argued about for some time so I figure it's time to do some side by side testing and then ya'll can decide for yourselves.

What are "winter oats"??? Does that mean they will survive all winter like rye and wheat? Do oats with a buck on the bag mean that deer prefer them over other oats or over other types of food plots? Are oats better then rye? Better then wheat???

I'm going to attempt to give you more information that will help you understand and decide for yourself what might work best for you.

First I will flat out tell you this...there are no oats being marketed at this time that will survive once temps reach 20 degrees. If you live in the southern states then winter hardy oats have some merit but I have sat in my bow stand and shivered to 20 degree temps in November here in Iowa more then once.

So what is the point in planting that type of oats here in the Midwest? It is possible that they may survive an extra week or two but I have never seen any tests to prove that...only lots of advertising with no facts to back it up.

University tests show that even the most winter hardy oats always failed when temps dropped well below freezing.

There are winter hardy varieties that have been around since the 40's (lest you be misled into thinking someone just developed them for deer.....

Norline, Wintok, Harrison and new strains such as WN1 and WN10 do have winterhardy qualities and plant breeders at ARS Plant Science Research Laboratory have been working diligently to produce oats that can survive mild winters.

This would be huge for cattlemen and crop growers in some areas so if it were possible then those oats would be readily available already.

That being said...deer LOVE oats because they are tender and succulent when YOUNG!! I say that because some people are incredulous when their oats mature and deer won't touch them...

This means fall planting dates are important...plant to early and they will get too mature...plant to late and they will not achieve much growth before cold weather. We want the oats to be 6-10" tall during hunting season...not 2" and not 24"!!

Mid to late August here in southern Iowa works well to achieve those growth rates so northern areas might plant a week earlier and southern might be slightly later.

Plant oats at 2 1/2 to 3 bushel per acre or 32# x 3...

Seed oats can typically be purchased locally at farm/ag seed supply sources. I bought 2 bushel bags today in Birmingham for $17 (64# bags) so I bought two bags (128#'s) for $34 and I bought one 50#'s bag of Buck Forage Oats for $34

Now...if money is not of the essence then you can largely ignore my "testing" and plant what ever you desire, if however like myself...every dollar counts then lets look at options.

I have planted rye and oats side by side and deer walk from one to the other and graze each to the ground. So why...why would I care if the oats freeze off at some point??

I mix them and get the best of both worlds...rye lasts all winter and I take advantage of the allelopathic effects of rye (it's ability to suppress and control certain types of weeds) as well as it's nitrogen scavenging, soil building attributes.

Deer LOVE rye...have I mentioned that?

So why mess with wheat??? It has NONE of the attributes of rye and I haven't found or seen one iota of evidence that deer even care...give them tender green feed and they'll be all over it.

Winter rye (fall rye grain)seed is $16 in Birmingham and mixing 40-50 #'s of each will cover all bases in a fall cereal grain plot.

I am going to plant (in several plots on two different farms) regular oats, BFO oats and oats and rye mixed. Some of these plots will be easily viewed while hunting so if deer prefer one over another or if one lasts for and extended period of time...I'll post it all here.

In the end..barring some surprise (I have been surprised before ) you will find that ALL of the oats regardless of price or origin will eventually be stone cold dead and only the rye will be left to attract deer (at 16 bucks an acre... )

You can feed fall grains with 46% urea at 100-200#'s per acre but I rarely do. It grows quite well without it and most farmers don't feed wheat until the following spring....so fertilizer is optional.

Tillage doesn't have to be as fine as for small seeds like clover or brassicas so I till the ground then broadcast seed and then roll to cover. If you have a drill then till and drill! If you don't have a 'packer...drag or harrow or lightly disc to cover seed. Drag a piece of chainlink fence or an old plank or drive over it wih an ATV.

Grain seed can be covered and inch or so deep unlike clover and brassica seed which should be lightly pressed into the upper soil surface.

Mix field or AWP peas with oats, add red or white clover after you roll the first time to establish a clover plot or simply for a green manure nitrogen producing crop to till in next fall.

The low seed costs, low inputs, make cereal grains one of the least expensive but most productive of all the possible foodplots! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

Hardy Oats Stand the Cold

Fodder Oats

Small Grains

Weed Control in Winter Rye

Weed Suppressing Cover Crops

Rye as a Cover Crop

Remember oats grow quickly and they can go from

this...

to this

to this...

in less then 90 days so DON'T plant to early! Even the second picture is pushing it and when they reach the stage in the last picture...they'll be moving on to greener pastures!

In the fall cold weather will prevent that because growth will slow and eventually stop but still...we don't want them to get to tall and rank by planting to early.

Next week or two in southern Iowa will work well up thru Labor Day /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

[dbltree]

Originally Posted By: steveolson
Dbltree, I'll be planting my rye in a couple weeks, about an acre or so. This is only going to be rye, not a mix with oats. This particular acre is going to stay in cereal grains each fall so what is the best method to keep them going strong year after year? You mention mixing red or white clover in with the rye to help build nitrogen in the soils the following summer is that correct. But as spring warms things up the rye will quickly grown tall and get rank. Am I suppose to just clip the rye down thereby exposing the clovers....thus my summer feed will be the clovers alone? Then again in the fall, disc the field under and start from scratch. Is doing this year in and year out recommended or should I utilize that acre in different ways every year? Thanks
STEVE

If you look back thru this thread and also the clover thread, you'll see pics of rye and clover including pics of this combo when the rye matures the next summer.

The nice thing about rye is that it really is no big deal to the clover...it just falls over, breaks down and is harmless to the clover.

You can also clip it once if clipping is not a big problem but that's optional. You can just leave the whole thing and till it under this time of year and sow rye again.

Deer will feed on the clover as the rye starts to break down in mid summer and the clover begins to take off.

I really don't care to plant anything year after year after year...it's just not good for the soil or the crop. Disease and soil borne problems can set in. I prefer to divide the plot or rotate to something different. Rye/clover year one, brassicas year two, then back to rye/clover (for example)

One person at Welters said to use winter triticale

He was very right! Winter triticale is an excellent food source but I would have to have it shipped and that makes it expensive.

Winter triticale is a cross between winter wheat and rye so it has attributes of both and is a tender forage plant. It doesn't have all of the positive attributes of rye however so winter rye is a better option for most people to plant.

Next weekend thru Labor Day should be fine to start planting oats and rye for fall plots

 

[nannyslayer]

Me and windwalker just planted about 5 acres of winter rye (rye grain) this past week. It is a little early to plant rye grain, it will be a little more mature than I care for by the time of the first frost, but we did mix in some forage peas and some winter peas, side by side to see which one is more "winter hearty".

We also put in some winter wheat to make sure there was still some "green" in the plots when it comes late December and January.

 

[Crimson Arrows]

Is it possible if we have a very warm Sept and the rye gets too tall to cut it to prevent it from maturing somewhat like clover? Talked to Welters today while ordering and they suggested this weekend as the temps have been cool but said that if it gets "hot" they may get bigger than us "hunters" want and to plant clover as a backup. The only problem is I am switching that plot to corn next year and while it would be win win if I was keeping it in clover, may be a waste to plant this fall as I might not get much growth?