I started a very small Alice clover plot in an opening in the woods this past winter. Despite drought and other weather issues some of it came up nicely. Is there a good way to help fill in the plot where the weeds took over? One species of broadleaf flourished all over the woods following logging and only thing that gets to this plot is what I carry on my back. Trying to decide if incorporating rye vs use of Round-up vs use of other herbicides. I must say the Alice is tough stuff, other attempts with clover in this spot failed miserably!
Clover
- Thread starter dbltree
- Start date
dbltree
Super Moderator
I would frost seed more clover into the bare spots, usually ragweed will come up everywhere during droughts just because other plants are suppressed. I don't have a warm and fuzzy feeling that we are out of the woods yet in regards to continued drought in 2013 but let's hope for more normal rainfall in which case the new clover seed should take off in the bare spots
Plant ALL in one plot in strips or blocks
Alice, KopuII, Durana (or comparable) white clover 10% of plot, in odd areas, corners or simply divide the plot with clover strips. Soil test for best results but 400#'s of 6-24-24 and 400#'s of pel lime will get most soils into shape. Plant 6-10#'s per acre
Brassicas in 45% of plot
Purple Top Turnips 3#
Dwarf Essex Rape 2#
GroundHog Forage radish 5#
Plant in mid to late July in most Midwest states, or 60-90 days before your first killing frost, use 400#'s 6-24-24 and 200#'s urea for best yields. Follow the dead brassicas with oats and berseem or crimson clover in mid spring.
Cereal Grain combo in 45% of plot
Winter rye 50-80#'s per acre (56#'s = a bushel)
Spring oats 80-120#'s per acre (32#'s = a bushel)
Austrian Winter Peas or 4010/6040 Forage peas 20-80#'s per acre
Red Clover 8-12#'s per acre or white clover at 6#'s per acre
Groundhog Forage Radish 5#'s per acre
Plant in late August to early September add 100-200#'s of urea if heavy grazing is expected.
Rotate the brassicas and rye combo each year
__________________
The life and times of dbltree
Paul,
Not even sure if I'm doing this right, while I've been a member for a couple of years absorbing all the wonderful and informing information on this sight I've yet to post or reply to anything.
I recently purchased a 200 acre farm in SE iowa and would like to plant several acres in various places of your notorious food plot "Mix" which I have read about so many times on this sight. My question is, assuming of course my ground is ready for it, what should I expect to pay per acre to plant the mix, fertilizer, lime, seed etc. I have access to equipment, just trying to get an idea of the cost of all the ingredients, again, my location is only about a half hour from yours, Eldon
Thanks and thanks to everyone who shares information on this sight
Alice, KopuII, Durana (or comparable) white clover 10% of plot, in odd areas, corners or simply divide the plot with clover strips. Soil test for best results but 400#'s of 6-24-24 and 400#'s of pel lime will get most soils into shape. Plant 6-10#'s per acre
Brassicas in 45% of plot
Purple Top Turnips 3#
Dwarf Essex Rape 2#
GroundHog Forage radish 5#
Plant in mid to late July in most Midwest states, or 60-90 days before your first killing frost, use 400#'s 6-24-24 and 200#'s urea for best yields. Follow the dead brassicas with oats and berseem or crimson clover in mid spring.
Cereal Grain combo in 45% of plot
Winter rye 50-80#'s per acre (56#'s = a bushel)
Spring oats 80-120#'s per acre (32#'s = a bushel)
Austrian Winter Peas or 4010/6040 Forage peas 20-80#'s per acre
Red Clover 8-12#'s per acre or white clover at 6#'s per acre
Groundhog Forage Radish 5#'s per acre
Plant in late August to early September add 100-200#'s of urea if heavy grazing is expected.
Rotate the brassicas and rye combo each year
__________________
The life and times of dbltree
Paul,
Not even sure if I'm doing this right, while I've been a member for a couple of years absorbing all the wonderful and informing information on this sight I've yet to post or reply to anything.
I recently purchased a 200 acre farm in SE iowa and would like to plant several acres in various places of your notorious food plot "Mix" which I have read about so many times on this sight. My question is, assuming of course my ground is ready for it, what should I expect to pay per acre to plant the mix, fertilizer, lime, seed etc. I have access to equipment, just trying to get an idea of the cost of all the ingredients, again, my location is only about a half hour from yours, Eldon
Thanks and thanks to everyone who shares information on this sight
dbltree
Super Moderator
Congrats on the purchase of your farm and welcome to IW :way:
The mix I share is meant to eventually be somewhat self sustaining, perhaps not entirely but at much lower costs then initial start up costs.
One of the first steps is to do a soil test and then apply P&K and lime to build soil nutrients to optimum levels. That should be done regardless of what crop is planted and the fertilizer mentioned above is just a general rule of thumb amount to get started (in regards to P&K or the 6-28-28)
The amount of fertilizer noted would be typical for a fair crop of corn or beans for instance and the cost varies year to year with unfortunately an upward trend. Right now bagged 6-28-28 is probably $17-20 a bag or 130-160 an acre.
urea is nitrogen...none needed for the clover and optional for the rye mix but imperative to a successful brassica planting. It is more expensive so 200#'s is probably $80 an acre?
Pel lime is $5-6 a bag
Brassica seed maybe $25 an acre?
The cereal mix rye $14-18, Jerry oats $10-15, peas $30-40, radish $15 and red clover $16-18?
White clover seed could run $20-45 an acre depending on variety and #'s per acre (6-10)
Once you build the initial nutrients to proper levels and begin tilling under legumes (or spraying and no-tilling into them) you will eventually need little if any added nitrogen.
The rye and radish plants pull up sub soil nutrients and eventually will significantly lower the need for synthetic P&K.
Since you are close to Keosauqua I recommend that you give Aaron Palm a call at Iowa-Missouri Hybrids at 641-919-1695
I purchase all my seed, fertilizer and lime needs from Aaron so he not only carries everything but is very knowledgeable and can answer all your questions regarding prices etc. Aaron is working on his own clover mix, he carries inoculate etc. so give him a shout and discuss your needs for 2013...tell him dbltree sent ya...
Eldon, I know you asked dbltree, but here is what the seed cost me this year to plant an acre of the "dbltree" mix
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="433"><colgroup><col style="mso-width-source:userset;mso-width-alt:8813;width:181pt" width="241"> <col style="width:48pt" span="2" width="64"> <col style="mso-width-source:userset;mso-width-alt:2340;width:48pt" width="64"> </colgroup><tbody><tr style="height:15.0pt" height="20"> <td style="height:15.0pt;width:181pt" height="20" width="241">Crusade white clover</td> <td style="width:48pt" align="right" width="64">5</td> <td style="width:48pt" width="64">pounds</td> <td class="xl65" style="width:48pt" align="right" width="64">28.00</td> </tr> <tr style="height:15.0pt" height="20"> <td style="height:15.0pt" height="20">Landino white clover</td> <td align="right">5</td> <td>pounds</td> <td class="xl65" align="right">18.75</td> </tr> <tr style="height:15.0pt" height="20"> <td style="height:15.0pt" height="20">Winter Rye</td> <td align="right">2</td> <td>bags</td> <td class="xl65" align="right">35.00</td> </tr> <tr style="height:15.0pt" height="20"> <td style="height:15.0pt" height="20">Jerry Oats</td> <td align="right">4</td> <td>BU</td> <td class="xl65" align="right">32.00</td> </tr> <tr style="height:15.0pt" height="20"> <td style="height:15.0pt" height="20">Tillage radish</td> <td align="right">7</td> <td>pounds</td> <td class="xl65" align="right">25.13</td> </tr> <tr style="height:15.0pt" height="20"> <td style="height:15.0pt" height="20">Peas</td> <td align="right">10</td> <td>pounds</td> <td class="xl65" align="right">9.50</td> </tr> <tr style="height:15.0pt" height="20"> <td style="height:15.0pt" height="20">
</td> <td>
</td> <td>
</td> <td class="xl66" align="right">$148.38</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="433"><colgroup><col style="mso-width-source:userset;mso-width-alt:8813;width:181pt" width="241"> <col style="width:48pt" span="2" width="64"> <col style="mso-width-source:userset;mso-width-alt:2340;width:48pt" width="64"> </colgroup><tbody><tr style="height:15.0pt" height="20"> <td style="height:15.0pt;width:181pt" height="20" width="241">Crusade white clover</td> <td style="width:48pt" align="right" width="64">5</td> <td style="width:48pt" width="64">pounds</td> <td class="xl65" style="width:48pt" align="right" width="64">28.00</td> </tr> <tr style="height:15.0pt" height="20"> <td style="height:15.0pt" height="20">Landino white clover</td> <td align="right">5</td> <td>pounds</td> <td class="xl65" align="right">18.75</td> </tr> <tr style="height:15.0pt" height="20"> <td style="height:15.0pt" height="20">Winter Rye</td> <td align="right">2</td> <td>bags</td> <td class="xl65" align="right">35.00</td> </tr> <tr style="height:15.0pt" height="20"> <td style="height:15.0pt" height="20">Jerry Oats</td> <td align="right">4</td> <td>BU</td> <td class="xl65" align="right">32.00</td> </tr> <tr style="height:15.0pt" height="20"> <td style="height:15.0pt" height="20">Tillage radish</td> <td align="right">7</td> <td>pounds</td> <td class="xl65" align="right">25.13</td> </tr> <tr style="height:15.0pt" height="20"> <td style="height:15.0pt" height="20">Peas</td> <td align="right">10</td> <td>pounds</td> <td class="xl65" align="right">9.50</td> </tr> <tr style="height:15.0pt" height="20"> <td style="height:15.0pt" height="20">
</td> <td>
</td> <td>
</td> <td class="xl66" align="right">$148.38</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=433><TBODY><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD style="WIDTH: 181pt; HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20 width=241>Crusade white clover</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 48pt" width=64 align=right>5</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 48pt" width=64>pounds</TD><TD style="WIDTH: 48pt" class=xl65 width=64 align=right>28.00</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20>Landino white clover</TD><TD align=right>5</TD><TD>pounds</TD><TD class=xl65 align=right>18.75</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20>Winter Rye</TD><TD align=right>2</TD><TD>bags</TD><TD class=xl65 align=right>35.00</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20>Jerry Oats</TD><TD align=right>4</TD><TD>BU</TD><TD class=xl65 align=right>32.00</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20>Tillage radish</TD><TD align=right>7</TD><TD>pounds</TD><TD class=xl65 align=right>25.13</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20>Peas</TD><TD align=right>10</TD><TD>pounds</TD><TD class=xl65 align=right>9.50</TD></TR><TR style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20><TD style="HEIGHT: 15pt" height=20>
</TD><TD>
</TD><TD>
</TD><TD class=xl66 align=right>$148.38</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Wow! That's a lot per acre. What did you need that much rye and oats? red clover is much cheaper than white, I would use that unless you were planning to leave the white planted for several years
</TD><TD>
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</TD><TD class=xl66 align=right>$148.38</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Wow! That's a lot per acre. What did you need that much rye and oats? red clover is much cheaper than white, I would use that unless you were planning to leave the white planted for several years
This is what dbltree recommends:
Winter rye 50-80#'s per acre (56#'s = a bushel)
Spring oats 80-120#'s per acre (32#'s = a bushel)
The deer love the rye, so I just go heavy instead of worrying about 1/2 bags. I could have maybe used one less bushel of oats and 1/2 a bag less of rye, but the ROI on $16 was worth it to me. I just prefer to use white clover and have good luck with it, so thats what I use. Bottom line what ever variety / amount you can use/afford go for it, but definitely follow dbltree's advice. The amount of deer that are on our property has definitely increased because of it.
Winter rye 50-80#'s per acre (56#'s = a bushel)
Spring oats 80-120#'s per acre (32#'s = a bushel)
The deer love the rye, so I just go heavy instead of worrying about 1/2 bags. I could have maybe used one less bushel of oats and 1/2 a bag less of rye, but the ROI on $16 was worth it to me. I just prefer to use white clover and have good luck with it, so thats what I use. Bottom line what ever variety / amount you can use/afford go for it, but definitely follow dbltree's advice. The amount of deer that are on our property has definitely increased because of it.
Thanks for the info guys, I know it was a very general question with many variables i was more or less looking for seed, fertilizer lime etc. prices which you all gave me, thanks. I'll be doing soil test a bit later since I'm not there now but I have a very knowledgable friend/neighbor who believes my soil won't take much. The tillable was just seeded to CrP a couple years ago and it is bottom ground on the Des Moines river.
By the way, my mistake, Eldon's the area where the land is not my name...
Thanks again
By the way, my mistake, Eldon's the area where the land is not my name...
Thanks again
SWBUCKHNTR
Member
I had to post this picture. I dont have a before picture but it was kopu II that was frost seeded in march. It was about ankle high and thick as could be. That was in september first part of october. It was planted as a fire break but a number of deer use this area too so it worked as a little food plot. I snapped this picture when I was there earlier today. It should prove to people that deer will dig through snow to get to clover.
ArcheryHunter
Member
Frost Seeding Clover
I've got a small 1/4 acre area cleared in a section of timber. It should get adequate sunlight so i'm not too concerned with that. I want to put down pellitized lime and some 6/24/24 also. Can I frost seed the lime and fertilizer with the clover seed?
I've got a small 1/4 acre area cleared in a section of timber. It should get adequate sunlight so i'm not too concerned with that. I want to put down pellitized lime and some 6/24/24 also. Can I frost seed the lime and fertilizer with the clover seed?
dbltree
Super Moderator
Yes you can apply lime, P&K almost anytime other then with deep snow, wait to frost seed clover til mid to late March depending on weather. best to have freezing at night and thawing during the day. :way:
ArcheryHunter
Member
Thanks for the information DT, always appreciate the help.
HorseDoctor
PMA Member
That means I need to be doing my frost seeding while the wife is after me to be collecting maple sap... Cool... Just the leverage I need to justify a second UTV. :way:
dbltree
Super Moderator
January 28th, 2013
White/ladino clovers that are bred for intensive livestock grazing as well as for drought resistance will also have excellent stolon stamina and therefore provide winter grazing for whitetails. Many highly advertised "deer clovers" lack many or all of those traits and for that reason I do not plant nor recommend them.
Each area of the country is likely to have great clovers adapted to their area (with the exception of areas where white clovers may not do well due to arid conditions) but in the midwest clovers like Alice, Will, KopuII and others perform very well...not just during the spring and summer but well into winter.
This clover patch is next to corn stubble yet it is still there first choice
You can see the still green morsels they seek out under the snow
Late winter is a great time to frost seed clover seed and in my area I prefer mid March. The mild winter raises concerns by many about actually getting any freezing and thawing action if we once again have a warm March but even heavy spring rains will help clover seeds make soil contact. While switchgrass is hard dormant seed and needs at least 30 days of cold wet chill to stratify the seed, clover is not and does not and leaving it out for months of that kind of weather leaves it vulnerable to spoil/rotting of seed.
The weather is of course unpredictable so whenever you choose to frost seed your clover seed, please come back and share the date of seeding and the results so others might learn from your experience.
My preferred time to establish clovers (red or white) is in the fall with the rye combo listed below....add clovers to your program and help provide the missing link to providing year around sources of high quality forage....
White/ladino clovers that are bred for intensive livestock grazing as well as for drought resistance will also have excellent stolon stamina and therefore provide winter grazing for whitetails. Many highly advertised "deer clovers" lack many or all of those traits and for that reason I do not plant nor recommend them.
Each area of the country is likely to have great clovers adapted to their area (with the exception of areas where white clovers may not do well due to arid conditions) but in the midwest clovers like Alice, Will, KopuII and others perform very well...not just during the spring and summer but well into winter.
This clover patch is next to corn stubble yet it is still there first choice
You can see the still green morsels they seek out under the snow
Late winter is a great time to frost seed clover seed and in my area I prefer mid March. The mild winter raises concerns by many about actually getting any freezing and thawing action if we once again have a warm March but even heavy spring rains will help clover seeds make soil contact. While switchgrass is hard dormant seed and needs at least 30 days of cold wet chill to stratify the seed, clover is not and does not and leaving it out for months of that kind of weather leaves it vulnerable to spoil/rotting of seed.
The weather is of course unpredictable so whenever you choose to frost seed your clover seed, please come back and share the date of seeding and the results so others might learn from your experience.
My preferred time to establish clovers (red or white) is in the fall with the rye combo listed below....add clovers to your program and help provide the missing link to providing year around sources of high quality forage....
harleyjohnc
Member
Just wondering if there is a danger with frost seeding clover in early February in southeast MO near the Arkansas border. Would it survive if we get an extended cold snap?
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Sent from my iPhone using IW
dbltree
Super Moderator
The seed won't germinate until the weather warms and things begin to green up in your area, so broadcast seed (preferably) when ground is freezing at night/thawing during the day, roughly 30 days before usual spring greenup
harleyjohnc
Member
Thnks guess I'll be broadcasting seed next weekend. Then should be able to use cleth. later to help control grasses if needed
Sent from my iPhone using IW
Sent from my iPhone using IW
Horncarver
Member
Drought - dead clover or just dormant?
In the spring of 2012 my clover plots were lush and beautiful, but by August they were nothing but dead, grey looking vegetative mats. Even after a couple of early fall rains nothing sprung back to life. Should I be thinking about harrowing off this thick mat and frost seeding again or wait and see if the clover actually survived? Thanks<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>
In the spring of 2012 my clover plots were lush and beautiful, but by August they were nothing but dead, grey looking vegetative mats. Even after a couple of early fall rains nothing sprung back to life. Should I be thinking about harrowing off this thick mat and frost seeding again or wait and see if the clover actually survived? Thanks<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com
fficeffice" /><o></o>Clover question....
Dbltree,
Once again thanks for all the info... here's my latest question. I've got a plot that is brand new. It was overgrown pasture (big cedars etc...) that was bulldozed back in January. The ground is now clear of almost everything except for the occasional small root sticking up here and there. I'm planning on having it limed as soon as conditions allow. Do I need to disc / break up the soil in some way before I plant clover, or can I simply broadcast the clover right on top of the existing soil?
My original plan was to frost seed, but I'm not sure I'm going to be able to get the lime down anytime soon (which I figured I would need to do before seeding?). I also still need to ad P&K as based on my soil tests...
At this point I think I'm asking... what's the best way for me to proceed, so that I can be sure of getting the clover established this spring?
Thanks.
Steve
Dbltree,
Once again thanks for all the info... here's my latest question. I've got a plot that is brand new. It was overgrown pasture (big cedars etc...) that was bulldozed back in January. The ground is now clear of almost everything except for the occasional small root sticking up here and there. I'm planning on having it limed as soon as conditions allow. Do I need to disc / break up the soil in some way before I plant clover, or can I simply broadcast the clover right on top of the existing soil?
My original plan was to frost seed, but I'm not sure I'm going to be able to get the lime down anytime soon (which I figured I would need to do before seeding?). I also still need to ad P&K as based on my soil tests...
At this point I think I'm asking... what's the best way for me to proceed, so that I can be sure of getting the clover established this spring?
Thanks.
Steve