Clover

[Alpha Doe]

clover and oats it is! Thanks!

now my plan is set for labor day weekend.

I don't mean to think so far ahead, but how do I seed for oats next fall w/out destroying my clover? All this is relativly new to me. usually I bushhog, disk and plant oats year after year after year. there's never been a concern of planting oats in an existing plot of clover.

Thanks again guys!

how do I seed for oats next fall w/out destroying my clover?
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I'm thinking we have confused you somewhere along the line but normally we use oats to establish clover but then that's the end of it for the oats. Sometimes you can mow the clover close in the fall and no-till drill some oats into it again but the clover is usually to dominate and competitive for that to work well.

I plant seperate plots of clover and fall grains such as a mix of rye/oats/peas and red clover if that is making any sense to you?

I still can't get to IW so have to relay messages for now... dbltree

 

[tkcampb1]

You're right. I don't know what I was thinking

thank you for setting me straight!

 

[dbltree]

Time for an update on the High Sugar ryegrass/clover/PT turnip mix called "Sweet Spot".

The spot I planted this spring looked much better after being mowed a couple times but of course the PT's in the mix are largely wasted in a spring mix.

Just to clarify, ryegrass has NOTHING to do with cereal rye (winter rye/fall rye grain) as it is typically grown in pastures and lawns. This is also not the dreaded annual ryegrass but at the same time I do not know the pros and cons of this grass long term. I feel it may have some advantages for small hidden plots or for people with little or no equipment with the exception that it does need to be mowed occasionally or like any grass it will go to seed.

As you can see here the grass is very fine

There are beautiful clovers in the mix

It's hard to see but if you look closely you can see a seed head in this pic

I think this mix is better suited for a mid summer to fall seeding to take advantage of the one time growth of turnips in the mix and here are some pics of a seeding I did a few weeks back.

I killed the sod well before planting because there is no way to do it later as in a pure clover planting.

The PT's are growing rapidly as are the the clovers in the mix

The grass is very fine and almost delicate and eventually my TC should show evidience of grazing

I'm preparing some areas in a tree planting for seeding in another week or so where it should work well as a food source and low growing ground cover.

Welter Seed - Sweet Spot seed source

 

[dbltree]

I remember nannyslayer specifically telling me..."now go easy with this crop oil cause it's pretty"hot" stuff"...yeah...I remember it now...

To bad the directions are on the half that went to Skip...

Oh well...just nicely "browned" my clover when I sprayed it with clethodim...

You can see the difference where I missed a spot...

Nuked the grasses though! :way:

and the moral is...read the label (before it leaves in your friends car... )

 

[dbltree]

Update on the Sweet Spot mix I'm trialing that contains a mix of High Sugar ryegrass, white clovers and PT turnips.

You can see the grass is fine and looks like...well...grass..

The PT"s of course are a one shot deal and best used in a late summer planting (July/August)

Lot's of good clovers in this mix that could be a practical mix for small hidden plots although you will need to mow them or the ryegrass will go to seed.

So they next question is...what do deer think of this product?

Guess they approve!

I remains to be seen as to how late in the year this mix will remain attractive? Only time will tell and I can't not tell if they are eating the clover, the HS ryegrass or the PT"s at this point?

Ryegrass can be troubling long term although this HS type is not supposed to be as problematic as annula or other types of ryegrasses (there are many and it's a confusing subject) but I will continue to report on how it does and if there are any problems asscociated with this type of ryegrass.

Remember this is NOT winter rye...it's ryegrass as in grass like which grows in your yard, so please don't get the two confused. Winter rye is an annula that costs roughly $16 a bag while this product will run roughly $65 and of course should be higher as it contains clovers, chicories and the HS ryegrass. I mention it only to help alleviate confusion that often arises on this subject...

 

[dbltree]

Fall is the ultimate time to establish clover along with a cereal grain planting! No wet weather, no weeds, no muss no fuss!

I sow red or white clovers with grains that will be plowed down the following year as a green manure but also clovers to leave long term. I just clip off the rye in the spring and end up with a great weed free clover patch!

I am testing some clovers including some that have merely a "code#" at this point so it will be interesting to see how they do.

I always use Alice White clover as my standard and then see how other clovers do for winter hardiness, drought resistance, and of course how deer react to them.

Alice White Clover seed $4.85 a #

Couple "unknown" test clovers

and a clover mix by AWH $8.50 a #

All were planted in side by side plot on three different farms with varying soil conditions and I'll report back this next year on how they do.

Clover seed is tiny and everyone tends to overseed because it's nearly impossible to see the seed and they feel they are not getting enough on but 6#'s per acre of white clover or 10#'s or red clover is not very much!

Here's pics of the opening size that I use on my hand seeder and bag seeder...

Bag seeder

It's rarely harmful to over seed clover but there's no sense throwing expensive seed away either...

 

[Crimson Arrows]

Great post Paul. We had a field prepared in June inside the woods, I mean WAY in there, should be a great spot and has ample sunlight. In any case, it rained...rained...and RAINED some more all summer and we never got to work it up and plant in late August.

However, this past weekend, with a bit of dry weather, we went for it, got it tilled and then planted a bushel(60#) of rye with #8 of clover (1/2 alice and 1/2 jumbo ladino) over the acre plot. It hasn't rained since but I am not sure what to expect planting September 6th versus late August? The ground had alot of moisture though which is good. Perhaps it will work and worse case scenario it is prepared for a frost seeding that I'll do in March. i used the rye/clover tip last fall and it is an amazing plot this year.

 

[dbltree]

I am not sure what to expect planting September 6th versus late August?

i used the rye/clover tip last fall and it is an amazing plot this year.

As long as we don't get extremely cold weather real early, it should do fine but as you say, one can easily frost seed some additional seed to be sure.

Check it in late October and see what it looks like.

So far, I have never had a fall rye/clover seeding fail...and I've been around awhile...

 

[dbltree]

I moved my cam a little to get better pics of deer feeding on the Sweet Spot mix if in fact they were. It's a fairly small test plot in a tree planting sandwiched between switchgrass and shrubs and right next to all kinds of other food sources.

I was suprised to get dozens of pics of deer standing there feeding including one buck who stood there eating for 15 minutes!

It takes a lot to impress me but so far I'm kinda liking this mix because it could work great for small plots where one doesn't want to be working it up every year. Seed is available at Welters and right now it looks like July or early August plantings would be perfect!

 

[letemgrow]

I would also like to add that all I have to do to get clover on my farm is spray the grass to kill it in the fall or keep it mowed down so they get sunlight. I just let last years plots lay idle in some cases and clover seem to abound. Here are pics of the proof, I have not bought a single clover seed yet to put on the farm.

This pic was taken on 04-12 a few years back and is white clover.

 

[dbltree]

I have not bought a single clover seed yet

Can't beat that Phil!! :way:

 

[Crimson Arrows]

So last night we got a pretty good frost. I planted clover/rye on September 6th and it is growing GREAT on a one acre interior food plot! How long does it take for them to establish solid roots to be able to handle the cold or is it possible that the early frost will nuke them?

 

[dbltree]

So last night we got a pretty good frost. I planted clover/rye on September 6th and it is growing GREAT on a one acre interior food plot! How long does it take for them to establish solid roots to be able to handle the cold or is it possible that the early frost will nuke them?

Clover is pretty tough stuff and it should be just fine! Usually it's not so much early frosts as prolonged severely cold weather with no snow cover this winter that causes the problem.

It's more of a problem with alfalfa then clover so I think you'll find yours will do just fine.

Mine was only planted a week earlier so i guess we'll both find out!

22 degrees forecast for SE Iowa on Oct 11th 2009...been awhile since we have had that cold of weather this early...

 

[dbltree]

I moved my cams because it's peak rut here and pretty much chaos with deer running everywhere and the last thing on a bucks mind is eating anything much less Sweet Spot but the does have been grazing it hard at my place.

11/09/09 July planted Sweet Spot (High Sugar ryegrass/clover/chicory mix)

We have had a very mild November thus far with day time temps in the upper 50's to ow 60's and only a few mornings below freezing which is a far cry from last years temps in the teens by now...so the jury is still out on how late it will prove to be attractive but it sure looks good right now!

These pics are from a friends farm where I planted the Sweet Spot in the spring and he has far less grazing pressure and feed aplenty...it's being hit but not being grazed to the ground or anything.

Deer are literally wallowing in feed at this farm so I'm impressed that they are hitting it all...

Still don't see any severely cold weather in sight so not able to report on that yet but they are certainly feeding on it and it's standing up to the grazing pressure at my place...

 

[dbltree]

This is 11-29-09 update on the Northern Sweet Spot- High Sugar Ryegrass/clover/chicory mix...

We have had a very mild November here in Iowa with only a few nights dropping down to 26-28 degrees so I still don't have a feel for how it will react to cold weather but here are recent pics.

Still be grazed quite hard

and both the HS ryegrass and clover appears to be grazed to the same height, so they are not choosing one over the other so far as I can see.

The first week of December is calling for night time temps down to 17 or so and daytime temps in the 30's so I'll monitor usage beyond that point. Obviously I don't expect this mix to be an all winter food source but I think most landowners want a food source that will at least be cold hardy enough to last into early December.

For now...they still like it....

My Alice white clover and Alta-Swede Mammoth Red clover plots are absoutley being hammered! I know it's been a mild fall and perhaps that's the reason but I have never seen them pound my clover into the ground like this before.

We still have standing crops everywhere, plenty of feed and all types of feed but they sure are killin' this stuff!

What about you? Are they still hitting your clovers...more, less, the same then usual??

 

[risto2351]

Paul,
The does are just starting to get back into a pattern after being chased the last month. They have not been hitting the plots very hard. Clover and brassicas does look nice and green though.

Buddy saw a doe walk right past the corn into a alfalfa plot Sunday night. Kind of hard to believe especially since the alfalfa looks to be a little tuff right now.

 

[ayr_aca_cs]

Planted oats with white clover earlier this fall, the oats have come up just fine, not too thick but ok for me. The clover has not come up that much at all, where there is some it is still very small. My question, will that clover come up in the spring if it has not already started? Or should i be over seeding in the early spring to get it to fill in better. Thanks

 

[dbltree]

Planted oats with white clover earlier this fall, the oats have come up just fine, not too thick but ok for me. The clover has not come up that much at all, where there is some it is still very small. My question, will that clover come up in the spring if it has not already started? Or should i be over seeding in the early spring to get it to fill in better. Thanks

Yes...that clover will really take off in the spring!

Right now it should look a little like this

I sowed thise white clover with winter rye and oats Sept 1st but three weeks with no rain delayed germination.

This is some red clover sown with fall rye on soil with a little more moisture...

Yours should take off and do great in the spring...this is Alice white clover sown in 2008 with fall rye, this fall neing heavily grazed...

 

[ayr_aca_cs]

I wish my clover looked like the first pictures, most has not germinated. Will it do so in the spring? Or should I look into frost seeding some?

 

[dbltree]

I wish my clover looked like the first pictures, most has not germinated. Will it do so in the spring? Or should I look into frost seeding some?

If the clover has not germinated, it probably isn't going too and frst seeding may very well be warranted.

I have never ever had clover not germinate...is it possible it was planted to deep??