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FOREST RESERVE DISCUSSION & DEBATE!! (Renamed)

Sligh1

Sligh1

Administrator
Staff member
Need YOU guys!!! Anyone u know. Here’s link at bottom. This will be 60 seconds of your time. This is what ISC just sent out. If we show- we will win. If we don’t- we won’t. Please see other link with bullet points & the slide show of “why FR was put in place”. Any points u want to make. Or anything different- all good. Environmental & economic…. The facts are on the side of the program. Not the other side’s short sighted money grab. It’s not even close…. & i understand the oppositions view. The opposition doesn’t realize they are shooting themselves in the foot. Our state, resource, environment & rippling through economy will lose millions & the resource will lose. Our kids lose. Farmers lose. Those tight on budgets lose. Those crippled by high tax bills in low income areas already lose (taxes just doubled, costs up and commodities down). On & on… please share & take time. Link at bottom to join


Interested in what's happening with the Forest Reserve issue? Our main concern here, is that increasing the tax rate on timbered acres, will force many farmers and landowners to doze out more habitat in order to make ends meet. No matter what your opinion is on the current farming systems in Iowa, this issue directly affects our already limited habitat resources.

Below is a link to the public comment Zoom meeting, for the Senate Ways and Means subcommitee. This is tomorrow morning starting at 8am. The subcommittee is the ONLY time in which the public can formally speak directly to legislators. At the very least, I would urge you to listen in and make yourself familiar with what's going on!

Subcommittee: HF 2672
Bill Title: A bill for an act relating to forest and fruit-tree reservation tax exemptions, including county participation and minimum size requirements for forest reservations.(Formerly HF 2093.)
Members: Driscoll-CH, Dawson, Jochum
Date: 04/09/2024 8:00 AM
Location: Senate Lounge
Agenda:
Join Zoom Meeting
https://us02web.zoom.us/j/84004730986...
Meeting ID: 840 0473 0986
Passcode: 641764
 
Sligh1 said:
Need YOU guys!!! Anyone u know. Here’s link at bottom. This will be 60 seconds of your time. This is what ISC just sent out. If we show- we will win. If we don’t- we won’t. Please see other link with bullet points & the slide show of “why FR was put in place”. Any points u want to make. Or anything different- all good. Environmental & economic…. The facts are on the side of the program. Not the other side’s short sighted money grab. It’s not even close…. & i understand the oppositions view. The opposition doesn’t realize they are shooting themselves in the foot. Our state, resource, environment & rippling through economy will lose millions & the resource will lose. Our kids lose. Farmers lose. Those tight on budgets lose. Those crippled by high tax bills in low income areas already lose (taxes just doubled, costs up and commodities down). On & on… please share & take time. Link at bottom to join


Interested in what's happening with the Forest Reserve issue? Our main concern here, is that increasing the tax rate on timbered acres, will force many farmers and landowners to doze out more habitat in order to make ends meet. No matter what your opinion is on the current farming systems in Iowa, this issue directly affects our already limited habitat resources.

Below is a link to the public comment Zoom meeting, for the Senate Ways and Means subcommitee. This is tomorrow morning starting at 8am. The subcommittee is the ONLY time in which the public can formally speak directly to legislators. At the very least, I would urge you to listen in and make yourself familiar with what's going on!

Subcommittee: HF 2672
Bill Title: A bill for an act relating to forest and fruit-tree reservation tax exemptions, including county participation and minimum size requirements for forest reservations.(Formerly HF 2093.)
Members: Driscoll-CH, Dawson, Jochum
Date: 04/09/2024 8:00 AM
Location: Senate Lounge
Agenda:
Join Zoom Meeting
https://us02web.zoom.us/j/84004730986...
Meeting ID: 840 0473 0986
Passcode: 641764
Click to expand...
FWIW, I am not able to join the meeting with this passcode.
 
Farm bureau brought an ARMY!!!! That was 75% of the voices for this. We were outnumbered but came out swinging. A lot of their “facts” were so off & wrong it’s insanity. We got the record corrected as best we could ;). We were outnumbered BUT - so was Alexander or the Spartans fighting the Persians!! Washington’s army against the Red Coats. On & on. We do have the FACTS. We win on economics & the environment. Dominate. They win on a short sighted $ grab. A small $ grab in big picture that will cost EVERYONE 10 fold… all to get a tiny amount of additional funds they take from mainly farmers who have had their taxes DOUBLED in last few years. It’s never enough!!! This is poster child of short sighted tiny gains yielding huge unintended consequences that will devestate our state. The fight isn’t over. Will update as we know more.
 
Lets say this passes(I certainly hope not)............A common saying I have heard my in entire life is as government moves further away the less control you have......Township, County, State, Feds.......Skip if this made it to Decatur county and came for vote I would bet you could have 50 guys from Decatur county at the meeting. You may even know some of the people on the Board who are voting. Personal interaction and lots of people at a local level might wield some power.
 
I listened today as best as I could while driving.

Used the non-zoom call bridge, also couldn't use the zoom link, maybe those that couldn't connect needed to have a commercial zoom account? Whatever the problem that issue needs to be corrected so that everyone has an opportunity to participate in the discussion, this is big deal.

A couple of the arguments from those that are in favor of this bill:

They argued that it isnt fair that out of state residents dont pay property on land that they own in Iowa that is enrolled in the Forest Reserve, the out of state people using the Forest Reserve need to pay their fair share of taxes, so apparently they feel this is a valid argument to also drag the Iowa Residents that use the Forest Reserve into their debate and impose a property tax on us as well.

A major failed argument by those that were supporting the bill was that people who have timber enrolled into the Forest Reserve are also leasing their land for hunting. I dont have any idea how common this is, but its totally a mute point since its against the rules to lease acres that are in the Forest Reserve for hunting, I guess its alot easier to abolish a valuable program like the Timber Reserve on this false premise as opposed to enforcment on those that are breaking the rules.
 
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fergyr said:
I listened today as best as I could while driving.

Used the non-zoom call bridge, also couldn't use the zoom link, maybe those that couldn't connect needed to have a commercial zoom account? Whatever the problem that issue needs to be corrected so that everyone has an opportunity to participate in the discussion, this is big deal.

A couple of the arguments from those that are in favor of this bill:

They argued that it isnt fair that out of state residents dont pay property on land that they own in Iowa that is enrolled in the Forest Reserve, the out of state people using the Forest Reserve need to pay their fair share of taxes, so apparently they feel this is a valid argument to also drag the Iowa Residents that use the Forest Reserve into their debate and impose a property tax on us as well.

A major failed argument by those that were supporting the bill was that people who have timber enrolled into the Forest Reserve are also leasing their land for hunting. I dont have any idea how common this is, but its totally a mute point since its against the rules to lease acres that are in the Forest Reserve for hunting, I guess its alot easier to abolish a valuable program like the Timber Reserve on this false premise as opposed to enforcment on those that are breaking the rules.
Click to expand...
EXACTLY!!!!
2.3% or FR participants are NRLO’s. & the vast majority of those still have tillable & income they pay taxes on.
The “fair share” - i got to fire back at that…. I pay in the 10’s of thousands for taxes. Because: 6-8% of our state is timber. My taxes got DOUBLED in last 3 years!! & I’m not paying my fair shair?!? The citizens of all these rural counties & poor counties just had taxes doubled on 90% of the land & buildings. But it’s “not enough”. SURE!!!! The folks where “dude, it’s tight & my taxes went from $5k to $10k & now they want to add another couple thousand + commodities are down” - this will kill these communities or people in that situation. It’s crazy.
& to create maybe $5m across the whole state- drive hunters out, forest use, dnr tag sales, water clean up, erosion control, paying people $600 through state REAP program to plant trees, on & on…. This is an ECONOMIC LOSER!!!!! Bring in $5m to probably lose $50m!!!! Not joking. & the environmental cost, insanity!!!!


lil summary & it’s also on IW FB page & YT.


 
If the taxes are going to bankrupt someone, they aren’t going to doze “acres” of timber to put into production. They could pay taxes for years and not come close to what the clearing and prep work would cost. Even the break even point after planting would take years. We are losing more habitat every day with waterways and fence lines being eliminated than we would lose by taxing forest.

I bet a lot of people wish their ground was taxed at $5/acre. ( Based off Skip’s statement in #6 above)

“A major failed argument by those that were supporting the bill was that people who have timber enrolled into the Forest Reserve are also leasing their land for hunting. I dont have any idea how common this is, but its totally a mute point since its against the rules to lease acres that are in the Forest Reserve for hunting,”.
How is it a mute point just because it is against the rules? It’s happening and there is nobody enforcing it. Selling hunts on it may not technically be considered “leasing” it, but it’s the same principal. The client is paying to hunt for a set period of time on ground with restricted access. The same happens with CRP.
 
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seven twenty said:
If the taxes are going to bankrupt someone, they aren’t going to doze “acres” of timber to put into production. They could pay taxes for years and not come close to what the clearing and prep work would cost. Even the break even point after planting would take years. We are losing more habitat every day with waterways and fence lines being eliminated than we would lose by taxing forest.

I bet a lot of people wish their ground was taxed at $5/acre. ( Based off Skip’s statement in #6 above)

“A major failed argument by those that were supporting the bill was that people who have timber enrolled into the Forest Reserve are also leasing their land for hunting. I dont have any idea how common this is, but its totally a mute point since its against the rules to lease acres that are in the Forest Reserve for hunting,”.
How is it a moot point just because it is against the rules? It’s happening and there is nobody enforcing it. Selling hunts on it may not technically be considered “leasing” it, but it’s the same principal. The client is paying to hunt for a set period of time on ground with restricted access. The same happens with CRP.
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They will sell the land. To someone with deeper pockets & a reasonable chance to someone that will doze the timber. Or- they will kick off permission folks (kids, locals & everyday folks) to lease out hunting to make difference up.
I’m on farms- literally dozens of times per year where guys spend “$5k to doze & tile .25 acres of trees. Or push it out into the creek. Or thousands for a tiny fence row. Sorry- I love my fellow farmers but many are greedy & will throw any amount at trees they hate (that’s little to do with FR in all fairness).
No one can argue FR didn’t save huge amounts of timber after enacted (forest got cut in half before program started).
I mentor a lot of distressed farmers & landowners. Theres a lot more than people realize. Most of the folks (like hundreds to thousands) I know in rural communities make maybe $40k to $150k ….. some farms where they rent ground, some years they lose $. Some years are “pretty good”. The dudes with paid off land- non-issue. The guys 18-45…. Low or middle income- paying off land or renting - things are Frigin tight!!!! When your tax bill goes from $5k to $10k like it did in just these recent years - this has crippled folks. They sell the land when it gets bad enough. & more will sell. So- the same folks that had their taxes blown up and seen their commodity prices down & all life costs up - we want to raise taxes on them again???? On ground that really isn’t producing any income (if managed right- maybe 1-2 timber sales in their lifetimes). Cause doubling folks taxes isn’t enough & when inflation probably hit folks for 20-35% - great timing!!!

MY POINT & ?’s…..

1) when taxes get hiked 50-125% in 3-4 years- that’s not enough? Especially when it’s a multiple higher when u cross border into MO for example. I’ll answer this one …. it’s NEVER ENOUGH FOR GOVERNMENT!!!!!! No tax they don’t love!!!!!
2) we can look at the data- when put in place in ‘86…. That’s a what got us to 6-8% timber we have now. Right before that- we were at just over 3% - because everyone was dozing timber. We put this program in place & reversed course!!! It’s not ALL FR but it’s huge part & kept us at double the 1970’s for 30+ years now.

3) can we think through or debate the economics?? Because - on the oppositions sides this is ALL ABOUT $!!!!! That’s it!! MIGHT create $5m statewide for GREED but… ok- let’s go for it, $5m for the interests of GREED & one side wanting more dollars. Now - when our timber is reduced from 8 to 6% (I will predict it goes to 5% within 5-10 years) - we will very likely lose 20% of hunters. Less deer, less tag sales, less hunters, less hunting economy …. All those are no less than a $100m economy - very easily. Right there- that’s a $20m loss. JUST ON HUNTING. Water quality costs - we are spending in the many hundreds of millions on CRP, tree plantings, riparian buffers, silt ponds, wrp buy outs, etc. For example - we spend $600 per acre to pay YOU to plant an acre of trees: REAP, EQUIP or CRP tree planting establishment…. & it’s not keeping up with rate forests are cleared!!! While we remove 50-150 year old growth??? How does that make sense??? For $5-7 an acre Take that $ & lose 10x that NET!!!!!!! How does it make any sense?? & this doesn’t include “value” of beauty, wildlife, air quality, ecosystem diversity, benefits of forest to communities. Recreation for our youth & enjoyment of outdoors. On & on. BUT - just the economics of this…. How does this make any sense when u flush this out???
 
seven twenty said:
If the taxes are going to bankrupt someone, they aren’t going to doze “acres” of timber to put into production. They could pay taxes for years and not come close to what the clearing and prep work would cost. Even the break even point after planting would take years. We are losing more habitat every day with waterways and fence lines being eliminated than we would lose by taxing forest.

I bet a lot of people wish their ground was taxed at $5/acre. ( Based off Skip’s statement in #6 above)

“A major failed argument by those that were supporting the bill was that people who have timber enrolled into the Forest Reserve are also leasing their land for hunting. I dont have any idea how common this is, but its totally a mute point since its against the rules to lease acres that are in the Forest Reserve for hunting,”.
How is it a moot point just because it is against the rules? It’s happening and there is nobody enforcing it. Selling hunts on it may not technically be considered “leasing” it, but it’s the same principal. The client is paying to hunt for a set period of time on ground with restricted access. The same happens with CRP.
Click to expand...
Mennonite’s around me are taking out groves/wood lots for dirt cheap if they get the wood. Then they mill it, sell the wood, and make their money there. Being cheaper than everyone else has gotten them tons of woods/fencerows/creeks. My neighbor has them taking 10 acres of scattered pieces- some was walnut so they did it at NO CHARGE if they got to keep all the wood. They had semis lined up to haul logs away. It was crazy- so don’t think people are spending lots to get rid of it at times. There’s always someone that’s willing to do it cheap
 
newfarmer said:
Mennonite’s around me are taking out groves/wood lots for dirt cheap if they get the wood. Then they mill it, sell the wood, and make their money there. Being cheaper than everyone else has gotten them tons of woods/fencerows/creeks. My neighbor has them taking 10 acres of scattered pieces- some was walnut so they did it at NO CHARGE if they got to keep all the wood. They had semis lined up to haul logs away. It was crazy- so don’t think people are spending lots to get rid of it at times. There’s always someone that’s willing to do it cheap
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Sad. I farm…. It’s not like I don’t understand making a living. Or having a point in my life when I had NOTHING. BUT….. when farmers are doing “just fine” …. Like the northern 2/3rds of state - that’s where every last tree gets pushed out There’s almost no trees left folks. They are almost all gone!! They can’t leave a drop. A scrap for wildlife. Not .1%…. Not 1%…. I said .1%…. NOPE- can’t leave it!!! I’m there often. I see the creeks where the planter went over a broken creek bank & dropped seed down the ditch. Can’t leave even a 5’ buffer. Junk flows into the creeks and our water with no care. Doze, pile & Burn 50-200 year old oaks in a nano-second. & I’m not advocating outlawing it. Yet- it’s doing our environment no help and for sure has impacts to water & folks who live here with the chemicals, etc. But do we want to push folks even harder to do what’s already a disaster??? Really?
I’ll bottom line it like this guys…. When $ is #1 & only concern above all else & all other ramifications are disregarded…. $ over the RESOURCE. Over any bit of conservation. $ over the future. Over saving top soil for 100 years from now. Making $100 & destroying something to make 1 more dollar…. When that is prevailing mindset….. we will LOSE! We will lose our wildlife, hunting, environment, integrity & we will have a guilt to the generations that follow us. I am all for free market & profitable farming….. but not pure greed at any cost. And in my humble opinion, some have far crossed that line.
 
Just to lighten things up for a minute
 

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The big money farmers are what is killing the environment now days. I have seen them dose in fence rows and even went on other peoples property and buried the stumps and trees there when the owner was busy doing other work. They even took a track hoe and tore out all the tress and small bushes on the creek banks and straightened out the creek without any permit from the DNR. Then when they got turned in and were fined over 200 thousand and had to pay to put the creek, trees, and bushes back to where they were before hand, they had to file bankruptcy. That big farmer lost everything he owned and had to get a factory job. This needs to happen more often.
 
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