Giant Deer of Iowa are rapidly becoming a past memory

[Sligh1]

So ALL OF US have adopted some/all of “all this new technology”. So, all of us, myself included need to look in the mirror and me talking to myself “you’re a hypocrite” on some of these things- absolutely. We all are. Now, the fact that’s it’s legalized & allowed is by far the bigger issue. U legalize year round rifles & dudes are just gonna use em. Right or wrong- they just are. Where REGULATIONS come in and why they are there. So it puts us all on an equal playing field with LIMITS as to how we can kill or take things. No regs- resource is ruined. Super tight regs- quality resource. & Everything in between.

Here’s the general “frustration” if you will or whatever word u wanna use…. Something NEW that’s never been allowed or done before in history comes up- we adopt it. Fairly easily & quietly in many cases… some examples: shotguns to straight walls that shoot 300 yards. ML’s that went from open sight 50-75 yard guns to 200-500 yard guns with scopes. Cell cams to pinpoint deer movement almost instantly. Wooden box blinds on occasion to sealed box blinds that can largely reduce scent.
*im actually not gonna put food plots in as I remember vast amounts of them 20 & 30 years ago. More so today…. Can add it in but that’s actually been done for far longer than most these other things & a bit of a different animal & one with huge upside (where it’s for nutrition and not killing). Plus so many upsides to other animals, soil, nutrition, ecosystem, etc. Items I’m focusing on are things solely for hunter advantage with little to no help or advantage to animal….. back to it….

Electric bikes to get way back super fast & quiet (big deal? No). Ozone machines to take out scent. Drones to find deer (illegal if used to find & hunt but right now- very wide open & so hard to enforce with current laws). Thermals & night vision (ok, not super big on deer side but some relation & abuse). Not iowa but other states: the use of bait that went from “never saw it done” to “oh my gosh, it’s littered everywhere!” Fencing, including high fencing to funnel deer to hunter or protect deer from neighbor. Tags to wipe regions out. New deer seasons like late shed buck rifle season. *I won’t add ehd as that’s not “hunters allowing that” & not in this category

On & on!!!! Again, while the deer changed nothing for their abilities. Maybe have LESS ABILITIES since the oldest wiser deer are lessor in #. I know I’m missing some things on all the things added in last 20 years. U get my point.

So- my point is this…. I just listed, what? 10 NEW things added, many with no outcry or resistance or regulation, in the last 5 to 20 years that’s brand new. Few if any said a thing. “No problem!”

So, we added 10+ things…. let’s say we said “let’s rein in 1-3 things” - whatever they are. Maybe 1 or 2 of the new things from that list that we reverse. Maybe it’s regs to tighten things up since all those new things do exist & folks want them to stay so we tighten other areas up to balance it out. My point: we throw “10 new things that make killing far easier” into the mix …. What bothers me or where the battle may need to take place…. “Ok guys, u got these 10 new things. We now have to make 1-3 changes to rein things in the other direction now”. & probably should be done. Pendulum needs to swing back a bit. I’ll say it…. Coming from the “adults in the room”. I am almost to the point where the “spoiled, entitled, fat & lazy hunter” that will have a tantrum if you take away “______” whatever…. I really don’t care. It’s ONLY about THEM/ME, ME, ME, ME. Name the issue that needs Reined in and there will be a sliver “we got that implemented 10 years ago SO- you can’t take it away from ME ME ME”. I am getting to the point - “ I don’t care!!!!!” “Go have your tantrum”. “You got 10 things thrown in Your lap, if the deer get 2 things thrown back their way- boo hoo, they frigin need the help!” & yes- this game inches closer to just “shooting” or “killing” & not a natural hunting pursuit- that’s a real problem & the pendulum needs to swing back. There’s got to be some common sense, some adults in the room & some balance IF/WHEN it’s time. & it might be time.

 

[Muskrat24]

So ALL OF US have adopted some or all of “all the new technology”. So, all of us, myself included need to look in the mirror and me talking to myself “you’re a hypocrite” on some of these things. We all are. Now, the fact that’s it’s legalized & allowed is by far the bigger issue. U legalize year round rifles & dudes are just gonna use em. Right or wrong- they just are. Where REGULATIONS come in and why they are there. So it puts us all on an equal playing field with LIMITS as to how we can kill or take things. No regs- resource is ruined. Super tight regs- quality resource. & Everything in between.

Here’s the general “frustration” if you will or whatever word u wanna use…. Something NEW that’s never been allelowed or done before in history comes up- we adopt it. Fairly easily & quietly in many cases… some examples: shotguns to straight walls that shoot 300 yards. ML’s that went from open sight 50-75 yard guns to 200-500 yard guns with scopes. Cell cams to pinpoint deer movement almost instantly. Wooden box blinds on occasion to sealed box blinds that can largely reduce scent.
*im actually not gonna put food plots in as I remember vast amounts of them 20 & 30 years ago. More so today…. Can add it in but that’s actually been done for far longer than most these other things & a bit of a different animal & one with huge upside (where it’s for nutrition and not killing). Plus so many upsides to other animals, soil, nutrition, ecosystem, etc

Electric bikes to get way back super fast & quiet (big deal? No). Ozone machines to take out scent. Drones to find deer (illegal if used to find & hunt but right now- very wide open & so hard to enforce with current laws). Thermals & night vision (ok, not super big on deer side but some relation & abuse). Not iowa but other states: the use of bait that went from “never saw it done” to “oh my gosh, it’s littered everywhere!” Fencing, including high fencing to funnel deer to hunter or protect deer from neighbor. Tags to wipe regions out. *I won’t add ehd as that’s not “hunters allowing that” & not in this category

On & on!!!! Again, while the deer changed nothing for their abilities. Maybe have LESS ABILITIES since the oldest wiser deer are lessor in #. I know I’m missing some things on all the things added in last 20 years. U get my point.

So- my point is this…. I just listed, what? 10 NEW things added, many with no outcry or resistance or regulation, in the last 5 to 20 years that’s brand new. Few if any said a thing. “No problem!”

So, we added 10+ things…. let’s say we said “let’s rein in 1-3 things” - whatever they are. Maybe 1 or 2 of thr new things from that list that we reverse. Maybe it’s regs to tighten things up since all those new things do exist & folks want them to stay so we tighten other areas up to balance it out. My point: we throw “10 new things that make killing far easier” into the mix …. What bothers me or where the battle may need to take place…. “Ok guys, u got these 10 new things. We now have to make 1-3 changes to rein things in the other direction now”. & probably should be done. Pendulum needs to swing back a bit. I’ll say it…. Coming from the “adults in the room”. I am almost to the point where the “spoiled, entitled, fat & lazy hunter” that will have a tantrum if you take away “______” whatever…. I really don’t care. It’s ONLY about THEM/ME, ME, ME, ME. Name the issue that needs Reined in and there will be a sliver “we got that implemented 10 years ago SO- you can’t take it away from ME ME ME”. I am getting to the point - “ I don’t care!!!!!” “Go have your tantrum”. “You got 10 things thrown in Your lap, if the deer get 2 things thrown back their way- boo hoo, they frigin need the help!” There’s got to be some common sense, some adults in the room & some balance IF/WHEN it’s time. & it might be time.

I’m on board with this and most of the things you listed I don’t use and of the deer I have shot 0 I had on cam. Quick side note, as Hardwood 11 said didn’t take much time and a buck he didn’t have on cam showed up. What happened to all the buzz from last year when big deer “sense” cell cameras so don’t get caught on them? To now we are hearing the argument that you see a deer on a cell cameras and go kill it. I really wish it was that easy. Easier, yes, EASY in most situations not in my opinion. When I get some time I want to break down the buck success rates over the years and compare to population. What is the argument on the cell cams, that they allow someone to kill an older higher scoring deer than without cell cams? Well good chance they were going to shoot a buck anyway so is it a bad thing to shoot an older/higher scoring deer? Or is the argument that cell cams help with high grading? Next, I know someone responded to this comment before but are those of us cussing this or that not a bit of hypocrites? I think the argument would be better accepted by DNR and legislation when saying I choose not to use this or that thing on the list and here is why…. Not hey Mr. Legislator I want you to outlaw this or that but I am going to continue to use it until you outlaw it because everyone else is. Good example, few years ago a neighbor was complaining about low turkey numbers then guess what, shoots a bearded hen. Another example is on high grading, had a buddy complaining that he doesn’t have any high scoring deer this year, suggested that he shoot an older cull/bully buck and he said he wasn’t gonna burn his tag on one of those…. And another, guys complain about population and go rifle down a pickup bed full of does, I asked why and same guy said “well there were still a bunch of antlerless permits available” and those does all were HUSH’d. How devoted and serious are we. I personally choose not to gun hunt, so don’t use straight walls, don’t have a thermal drone, etc. Some self regulation can’t hurt if the group on here really feels as passionate about change as we lead on.

 

[iowaqdm]

Skip,
You want to save at least 15,000 bucks next year. Get rid of party hunting for the gun 1 & 2 seasons. I would support that change 100%. No reason everyone can’t shoot their own deer. I mean kids have to fill their own youth tags. Why can’t the adults have the same rule.

I would also support late muzzleloader being only muzzleloaders, bows and crossbows. No pistols unless it is a muzzleloading pistol. No smokeless muzzleloaders allowed.

 

[IowaBowHunter1983]

Skip,
You want to save at least 15,000 bucks next year. Get rid of party hunting for the gun 1 & 2 seasons. I would support that change 100%. No reason everyone can’t shoot their own deer. I mean kids have to fill their own youth tags. Why can’t the adults have the same rule.

I would also support late muzzleloader being only muzzleloaders, bows and crossbows. No pistols unless it is a muzzleloading pistol. No smokeless muzzleloaders allowed.

All agreeable. Good start!

 

[Windlooker]

I commented on this last week. Each county offers NR doe tags, why. Does anyone believe a NR is spending $400 to shoot a doe. Residents are tagging bucks. Still happening. Get rid of it. I also agree with the resident party hunting being gone.

 

[iowaqdm]

I commented on this last week. Each county offers NR doe tags, why. Does anyone believe a NR is spending $400 to shoot a doe. Residents are tagging bucks. Still happening. Get rid of it. I also agree with the resident party hunting being gone.

I agree 100%, a NR is not spending $400 for the opportunity to shoot a doe. On this same line. Why are we still making NR’s buy a doe tag when they draw their buck tag. With deer numbers down like they are, doe management should be the responsibility of the residents. We should be deciding if an area can handle does being shot. Not a guy coming for one to two weeks once every 4-5 years. If the DNR needs the extra money from the doe tag then I guess they will just have to add it to the price of the buck tag.

 

[BearCreek]

Great thread, it seems we all agree on the lack of mature high-scoring deer on the landscape. I think about this topic more than I should. My thoughts:

- Cell cameras are a net positive if utilized in the right manner. Being able to identify deer to pass, quickly, really helps me avoid harvesting deer I shouldn't and has helped me identify culls that I normally would have assumed were 3-4 year olds. I really enjoy harvesting cull bucks, btw. People argue these are replacing woodmanship, perhaps, but a lot folks act is if they scout up these giant bucks by walking farms. C'mon man, you can glass some big deer up in late summer but you're not walking your woods during the season and identifying big deer from sign. Once you own a farm for a few years, you know how deer use it. Cameras just let you know who is there. For those of us without true vacation and kids at home, its hard for me to justify time in the stand when I know there are not any quality deer in the area. I sometimes wish I did not know what was on the property as I like to be in tree this time of year.

-Regulations. Becoming a one-buck state would benefit Illinois. Yes, it could contribute to high grading but more bucks are going to survive. State biologists want less deer on the landscape. They see forests with no regenerating native shrubs or oaks and blame this on the deer herd, perhaps rightfully so. Herd populations vary drastically across west central Illinois and with CWD coming in more counties are becoming three buck counties. We are allegedly losing hunters but you cannot find a parcel that is not hunted.

-Habitat Managers v. Hunters. I don't spend the amount of time and resources managing and manipulating my farm to shoot 140 inch three/four year olds. That's not a challenge on a managed farm in a decent neighborhood. Many of us do work that most people would never undertake. So yeah, when my neighbors that have killed a bazillion 140-inch young deer shoot another, I am not celebrating that. When someone kills that type of deer on public or under other circumstances, I am celebrating that. I also am not going to cheer on the deer drivers that shoot everything that moves. I used to hunt ground with a group of guys and while I miss the group interactions, I do not miss sitting on a 100 acre parcel with 8 other hunters and not seeing a single deer. At the end of the day, harvesting mature whitetails is a single player/family game.

- Land/Tract Segmentation - This seems to be the biggest problem in my locale. There are too many small parcels due to attempts to maximize the sale price of land by breaking them down into 40-80 acre parcels. Farmers/wanna be outfitters can now leave an acre of standing grain next to a box blind, wait for a blizzard and harvest the biggest deer on the landscape. In some areas this situation improving. The tracts are actually getting bigger as absurd "out-of-town" money continues to pour in and buy huge tracts and manage for mature deer.

- I have learned to really enjoy turkey hunting, racoon/predator hunting/trapping, and habitat management as these endeavors are completely different beasts. At the end of the day, our success as deer hunters, once we reach a certain level of skill and understanding is contingent on politicians and bureaucrats making "good" decisions and other hunters caring as much as we do.

 

[Windlooker]

I know guys that wait for pics of a shooter ? I don’t get that ? Don’t you want to hunt ? It took me about an hour this year to see a shooter that I never saw on camera before.

No matter if you have a cell cam or regular cam, you will not get all the bucks on camera !

It’s the cultural and societal easy button and instant gratification mentality. Why put in work and time when tech can do it for me? It’s disheartening. I’d take the work ethic, persistence and mindset of men 35 years ago, whether hunting, working or playing, compared to today. No comparison.

My neighbor killed his target buck on sit 2 based on cell cam info. Really. I’d rather hunt all year, not kill him, than do that. Hasn’t hunted an hour since. Idk.

 

[HWC]

I don’t think that cell cams are doing as much damage to trophy potential as people think when compared to regular trail cams. Cell cameras really only became affordable to the masses in what the last five to maybe ten years. During that same time period we have had the major EHD kills that decimated the herd and in some areas took out a significant number of upper age class bucks.

So do cell cameras really help hunters kill mature bucks more effectively than regular trail cameras??? I could see if you got a buck on a food source late season in the morning and so you went there that night knowing the odds are he will bed close and return that night. Hoping that he shows before shooting hours ends. But before cell cams guys just slipped in and check regular trail cams on multiple food sources mid day late season and accomplished the same thing. So no real advantage there. I could see if your gun hunting and got a good one on camera so you still hunted into the area to try and locate him. I could also see if you have multiple farms and had one show up so you went to hunt that farm that day vs another location trying to put the odds in your favor. That makes sense to me but does that really result in that many successful hunts on trophy class buck. Or if you have one show up and you drive three States to hunt hoping he didn’t just pass through. Again, does that really result in that many successful hunts??? Even in those situations you have to get in undetected, not bump other deer that will spook the target buck. So many other variables that have to play out for that to be successful on one of the smartest animals in the herd.

Are guys really like man before I had cell cams I never killed 160” deer now with cell cams I kill one every year. I just don’t think that is the case. I would bet more guys would be like...man before I had standing corn, standing beans, clover and turnip plots with box blinds I could hardly tag a 160”. Now it is every year. Heck, I am getting so good at it my taxidermist knows me by first and last name. Hell he knows my credit card number better than I do! I would bet the latter has more to do with successful harvests of 3.5 year old 150” plus deer than the cell cams. I bet cell cameras wouldn’t even be a close second.

I guess besides banning them completely which I am not for and will explain later. What rules would put cell cams back at the same level as regular trail cams which few complained about or thought were causing a decline in trophy quality. As others have mentioned you could have cameras drop pictures after midnight of the day they were taken however does that really do much? The guy is still going to know about the deer just a few hours later.

This time of year I don’t see any advantage cell cameras give to killing top end bucks other than letting you know they exist. Because a buck could stroll by your camera and by time you walked in to hunt the closest stand he could easily be a mile away or laying twenty yards away from your stand and you blow him out. I guess I personally don’t really care where I get a picture of a buck this time of year because I am not hunting bucks. I am hunting does. I want to know where the does will be feeding, where they will be bedding, and the best pinch point between those two locations or a pinch point between two different doe bedding locations. The bucks will usually be trolling between those locations unless they already have one separated and locked down somewhere else. Which I don’t care about. You are hoping to catch the buck between does or following one that is not quite ready. So chasing a buck picture this time of year doesn’t make sense to me. I use cell cams/trail cameras this time of the year strictly to try to identify and age any new bucks that show up so I can determine if they are a shooter or something that should be passed prior to having an encounter with them. This is especially important now because if the buck shows up late season and has lost 25% of his body mass it can be more difficult to judge age. I feel for me it is much easier know the deer and to have made that management decision prior to even seeing them while hunting. That way you know whether or not you need to to grab the bow off the hanger when you see them coming.

Most of my cameras are also in good areas for surveillance purposes which is my biggest dilemma with restricting their use and why I would be opposed to banning them.

I think a huge positive for using cell cameras is they are trespassers/poacher deterrents and are an overall plus to trophy potential from that aspect alone. I think people have to have a big set on them or nothing between their ears to knowingly cross a property line in this day and age. To know that a landowner can have an image of you (the trespasser/poacher) on his phone in seconds after a picture is taken. Then that landowner can make one call to the game warden followed by a text with that picture to the wardens phone so he knows where you were, what you are wearing and the direction you were headed. All done in less than three minutes of the picture being taken. Plus the landowner is now in his truck circling the property looking for you or your potential vehicle while the game warden is also in route. I guess I would hate to see that deterrent taken away. Because prior to cell cams people would trespass using a face mask or gator to avoid being caught. The thought of regular trail cameras didn’t deter them at all. If they saw the camera they stole the SD card, the camera or just didn’t even care and continued on. Even if they didn’t mess with the camera by the time the card was pulled that night, the next day or the next week they were long gone. I’m sure Skip could elaborate more on this topic as his neighborhood has fought this problem for years.

I guess we have all heard stories of this guy getting a picture then leaving work to go hunt and got that same target buck killed. But I don’t know of anyone personally that has pulled that off. Is that success reproducible without bait piles like other States allow or more just dumb luck? I would be curious to hear first hand how guys are actually using cell cameras in a unique way different from regular trail cameras to turn the table on mature bucks? Because I personally don’t see the advantage from a hunting standpoint other than the convenience and lack of disturbance of not having to retrieve SD cards, but not much else.

I only got through the first couple of paragraphs but couldn't disagree more with saying a regular trail cam is close the same advantage as cell cams. I will read the rest next time I get online but it's really mental gymnastics in my opinion acting like people with trail cams are walking around checking them right before hunts covering all their land or disturbing areas. At least very few people that would even be remotely comparable to cell use.

 

[JNRBRONC]

I only got through the first couple of paragraphs but couldn't disagree more with saying a regular trail cam is close the same advantage as cell cams. I will read the rest next time I get online but it's really mental gymnastics in my opinion acting like people with trail cams are walking around checking them right before hunts covering all their land or disturbing areas. At least very few people that would even be remotely comparable to cell use.

I pulled a card from a cam this morning after a hunt, hung a stand there yesterday. The cam was hung 9/21. Memory card was full 11/5. If I'd have looked at the card previously I would not have hunted there. Now I know.

 

[hillrunner]

Great thread, it seems we all agree on the lack of mature high-scoring deer on the landscape. I think about this topic more than I should. My thoughts:

- Cell cameras are a net positive if utilized in the right manner. Being able to identify deer to pass, quickly, really helps me avoid harvesting deer I shouldn't and has helped me identify culls that I normally would have assumed were 3-4 year olds. I really enjoy harvesting cull bucks, btw. People argue these are replacing woodmanship, perhaps, but a lot folks act is if they scout up these giant bucks by walking farms. C'mon man, you can glass some big deer up in late summer but you're not walking your woods during the season and identifying big deer from sign. Once you own a farm for a few years, you know how deer use it. Cameras just let you know who is there. For those of us without true vacation and kids at home, its hard for me to justify time in the stand when I know there are not any quality deer in the area. I sometimes wish I did not know what was on the property as I like to be in tree this time of year.

-Regulations. Becoming a one-buck state would benefit Illinois. Yes, it could contribute to high grading but more bucks are going to survive. State biologists want less deer on the landscape. They see forests with no regenerating native shrubs or oaks and blame this on the deer herd, perhaps rightfully so. Herd populations vary drastically across west central Illinois and with CWD coming in more counties are becoming three buck counties. We are allegedly losing hunters but you cannot find a parcel that is not hunted.

-Habitat Managers v. Hunters. I don't spend the amount of time and resources managing and manipulating my farm to shoot 140 inch three/four year olds. That's not a challenge on a managed farm in a decent neighborhood. Many of us do work that most people would never undertake. So yeah, when my neighbors that have killed a bazillion 140-inch young deer shoot another, I am not celebrating that. When someone kills that type of deer on public or under other circumstances, I am celebrating that. I also am not going to cheer on the deer drivers that shoot everything that moves. I used to hunt ground with a group of guys and while I miss the group interactions, I do not miss sitting on a 100 acre parcel with 8 other hunters and not seeing a single deer. At the end of the day, harvesting mature whitetails is a single player/family game.

- Land/Tract Segmentation - This seems to be the biggest problem in my locale. There are too many small parcels due to attempts to maximize the sale price of land by breaking them down into 40-80 acre parcels. Farmers/wanna be outfitters can now leave an acre of standing grain next to a box blind, wait for a blizzard and harvest the biggest deer on the landscape. In some areas this situation improving. The tracts are actually getting bigger as absurd "out-of-town" money continues to pour in and buy huge tracts and manage for mature deer.

- I have learned to really enjoy turkey hunting, racoon/predator hunting/trapping, and habitat management as these endeavors are completely different beasts. At the end of the day, our success as deer hunters, once we reach a certain level of skill and understanding is contingent on politicians and bureaucrats making "good" decisions and other hunters caring as much as we do.

- Identifying deer to pass is easily done with SD cameras. That does not require a cell cam

-Of course most people aren't scouting down those old bucks. That's kind of the point, they used to be able to hide and survive because they were hard to locate. I spent the last 7 days of October trying to locate one specific buck the old-fashioned way. It's hard and I failed. A string of cell cams would have found him easily. I had him several times on sd camera that week but I didn't know that at the time.

 

[IowaBowHunter1983]

Make this 1,001 posts I've seen. All good. All within the rules. We cant say that cell cameras haven't fundamentally changed things tho.

 

[booneriverbucks]

I don't think that moving to a one buck state would create less opportunities afield for Iowa resident hunters. This would be one buck for all hunters landowner or not. This would not mean that after a successful harvest your season is completely over, but your buck tag is now filled. This would be more mature bucks for all hunters. I did agree with a post stating that "Hunters want to hit the easy button", I agree completely with this statement. The ultimate discipline is being able to pass a buck that may very well be the best deer you may see the entire season. I want to make it clear I am in no way encouraging our young hunters to take part in the extreme management because taking part in the harvest of any deer is crucial to their learning. Kids should start at the bottom of the scale, and it should be fun. I am saying that with increased hunting experiences comes with choices. I really hope we can see a change in our state's regulations because I still believe we can make it better

I have no doubt becoming a one buck state would lead to an overall increase in antler size.. and a more “balanced age class”. What I don’t want is 25 percent of Iowa deer hunters being non-residents like in Kansas. This has certainly taken access/opportunity away from many in that state.

 

[thecreedeer]

What we are seeing now is more and more NR Landowners leaving Iowa. The Party Hunting law was the nail in the coffin for the NR to hunt every year with a possibility of being able to tag a buck. In addition to that it was a reality check that makes it quite clear that Iowa is not willing to change their quotas in favor of more Non Residents. Land is a bad investment (Hunting Opportunity), unless you live here. I really do not want my original thoughts in creating this Thread to change direction and start talking about NR Quotas. I really wanted to see if hunters agreed that our state would be better off with a one buck rule. Resident Party hunting is something that really needs to be changed. Trailers full of deer being dropped off to a Hush Locker does not help our landscape of deer.
Thank you to everyone getting involved with this post, It has been very productive.

 

[booneriverbucks]

What we are seeing now is more and more NR Landowners leaving Iowa. The Party Hunting law was the nail in the coffin for the NR to hunt every year with a possibility of being able to tag a buck. In addition to that it was a reality check that makes it quite clear that Iowa is not willing to change their quotas in favor of more Non Residents. Land is a bad investment (Hunting Opportunity), unless you live here. I really do not want my original thoughts in creating this Thread to change direction and start talking about NR Quotas. I really wanted to see if hunters agreed that our state would be better off with a one buck rule. Resident Party hunting is something that really needs to be changed. Trailers full of deer being dropped off to a Hush Locker does not help our landscape of deer.
Thank you to everyone getting involved with this post, It has been very productive.

I enjoy your optimism and hope you are correct! I will remain skeptical until I see a one buck state that successfully blocks crossbows during archery season and increased non-resident access after passage.

 

[203ntyp]

I have no doubt becoming a one buck state would lead to an overall increase in antler size.. and a more “balanced age class”.

It worked well in PA. Years ago, we were only allowed one deer per hunter, either a buck or a doe! That strategy didn't help the buck to doe ratio at all, and everyone was shooting mostly 1 1/2-year-old buck. Since the one buck and plenty of doe tags as well as the antler restrictions implemented in 2002 has really helped our herds. You were lucky to ever see a 3-year-old buck before that. If you shot a 100" buck everyone thought that was a trophy. The past several years I'm seeing more mature buck, before that if I saw a P&Y sized buck it was a rarity. Now I'm seeing buck in the mid-130's up to B&C buck.

 

[Rous14]

Great thread, it seems we all agree on the lack of mature high-scoring deer on the landscape. I think about this topic more than I should. My thoughts:

- Cell cameras are a net positive if utilized in the right manner. Being able to identify deer to pass, quickly, really helps me avoid harvesting deer I shouldn't and has helped me identify culls that I normally would have assumed were 3-4 year olds. I really enjoy harvesting cull bucks, btw. People argue these are replacing woodmanship, perhaps, but a lot folks act is if they scout up these giant bucks by walking farms. C'mon man, you can glass some big deer up in late summer but you're not walking your woods during the season and identifying big deer from sign. Once you own a farm for a few years, you know how deer use it. Cameras just let you know who is there. For those of us without true vacation and kids at home, its hard for me to justify time in the stand when I know there are not any quality deer in the area. I sometimes wish I did not know what was on the property as I like to be in tree this time of year.

-Regulations. Becoming a one-buck state would benefit Illinois. Yes, it could contribute to high grading but more bucks are going to survive. State biologists want less deer on the landscape. They see forests with no regenerating native shrubs or oaks and blame this on the deer herd, perhaps rightfully so. Herd populations vary drastically across west central Illinois and with CWD coming in more counties are becoming three buck counties. We are allegedly losing hunters but you cannot find a parcel that is not hunted.

-Habitat Managers v. Hunters. I don't spend the amount of time and resources managing and manipulating my farm to shoot 140 inch three/four year olds. That's not a challenge on a managed farm in a decent neighborhood. Many of us do work that most people would never undertake. So yeah, when my neighbors that have killed a bazillion 140-inch young deer shoot another, I am not celebrating that. When someone kills that type of deer on public or under other circumstances, I am celebrating that. I also am not going to cheer on the deer drivers that shoot everything that moves. I used to hunt ground with a group of guys and while I miss the group interactions, I do not miss sitting on a 100 acre parcel with 8 other hunters and not seeing a single deer. At the end of the day, harvesting mature whitetails is a single player/family game.

- Land/Tract Segmentation - This seems to be the biggest problem in my locale. There are too many small parcels due to attempts to maximize the sale price of land by breaking them down into 40-80 acre parcels. Farmers/wanna be outfitters can now leave an acre of standing grain next to a box blind, wait for a blizzard and harvest the biggest deer on the landscape. In some areas this situation improving. The tracts are actually getting bigger as absurd "out-of-town" money continues to pour in and buy huge tracts and manage for mature deer.

- I have learned to really enjoy turkey hunting, racoon/predator hunting/trapping, and habitat management as these endeavors are completely different beasts. At the end of the day, our success as deer hunters, once we reach a certain level of skill and understanding is contingent on politicians and bureaucrats making "good" decisions and other hunters caring as much as we do.

How/where is there a 3 buck possibility in IL?

 

[seven twenty]

Enforcing the current regs concerning “electronic aids” and eliminating cell cam usage would be a game changer in the # of mature bucks taken and not taken. It seems like everyday there is a post on Iowa Bowhunter of someone getting a pic, going to that area, and getting their “target” deer. There is absolutely no valid argument to deny that cell cams haven’t affected the # of mature deer harvested. Prior to the cell cam, guys risked pushing a mature deer out when they actually had to walk in to get their card. If it was a small area, most probably avoided it except for when they were actually going to sit. The days of “just missing him” or sitting in the wrong stand are over when using the cell cam. The only “real time” info a hunter should have is what he’s seeing as he looks around.
Enforce/eliminate cell cams and you’ll increase the amount of mature deer that make it. When a person can look at their phone and see which stand has the most action going on, it takes away from the definition of “Hunting”.

 

[northcedar]

How/where is there a 3 buck possibility in IL?

Cwd counties which are probably pushing 25% of the state now.

 

[iowaqdm]

I have no doubt becoming a one buck state would lead to an overall increase in antler size.. and a more “balanced age class”. What I don’t want is 25 percent of Iowa deer hunters being non-residents like in Kansas. This has certainly taken access/opportunity away from many in that state.

Not doubt you will see a more balanced age class and an overall increase in antler size going to a one buck State. But not top end deer. You will high grade the herd. You will have tons of 130-140 class 8 points that get to 4,5,6,7 years old and virtually no 160+ inch deer over 3. The only people that will benefit from going to one buck initially is the large landowners as they will have enough cover and food to pull those young bucks onto their properties and hold them. Their only issue is being able to cull enough older low scoring bucks to keep the young studs that have the best genetics alive. Because when the 160+ bucks become the rare opportunity in the woods they only have to roam off the reservation one time to be killed. Over time even the large landowners won’t be able to overcome the high grading effects and will suffer the genetic consequences of 130-140” 8 points doing 90% of the breeding. Just look at the Amana colonies 20,000 acre debacle. Some of the best habitat in the State with abundant high quality tillable run into the ground by having a one buck policy for the last 20+ years right here in the Great State of Iowa. They used to produce several giants year in and year out. Now it’s rare. Now they are going back to 2 bucks but the damage has been done. The genetic pool has been compromised. It could take decades of culling to reverse the damage that was done. Only time will tell.

Just use some common sense and think about yourself if you are managing for 170”+ deer for example. Now think about all the money and time spent to put in food plots etc. Let alone the cost of the land. Let’s say after monitoring cameras all summer you have one 5 year old that is close to 170” on your farm that you are going to target. Are you going to be willing to burn your one and only buck tag in a one buck State on one of the five 130” 8 points on your farm or will you hold out til the last minute trying get the opportunity at your target buck? Then after season you find out a guy hunting a half mile away killed the 170” the last couple weeks of the season. Then the next year you have 7 130” 8 points and one 165” 10 that you believe is 4. You decide to pass to let him get to 5. He gets shot the last week of October a mile away chasing a doe. Now your just hoping a big boy moves into your farm for does during the rut or for food late season so you hold off taking out a cull because you only have one buck tag and who wants to shoot another 130” 8. You’re not spending thousands on food plots and box blinds to shoot 130” bucks. So you hold off. Before you know it you haven’t filled a buck tag for three, four, five years and so on. All the while you see more and more upper age class deer sporting 130” racks and less and less high scoring bucks. Now every neighbor that was kinda managing that used to try for 160”+ deer will shoot the first buck that breaks 150” regardless of age but still passes all the 130 class 8 points.

That is high grading. You will get an increase in average antler size, more balanced age structure and virtually no top end bucks.

If you manage the only thing you can control is yourself and your property. Having multiple buck tags is the best herd management tool in your arsenal. Just like a chainsaw is the best habitat tool in your arsenal. Both used correctly will yield tremendous results.

Cull those 130” 8 and let the better genetic bucks breed and get age on them. It helps you and the neighborhood regardless of what the neighbors are doing.

I’d rather have 50% of the hunters shooting 1 1/2 year old bucks as a land manager than those same guys targeting 160” bucks or even young 10 points. Because 160” bucks or young 10’s that could potentially reach 160”+ are far fewer across the landscape than 1 1/2 year olds.

Anyone that is serious about managing and wanting top end bucks that is pushing for one buck is advocating for their own demise in my opinion.

When you think of high grading. Take a look at Texas. The whole State was high graded to the point that anyone that wants to hunt higher scoring deer have to high fence their properties and stocked the place with better genetics. That is because the genetics have been compromised for decades and decades by guys trying for higher scoring 10 points and passing cull 8 points. The battle to bring it back by now culling 8 points will take more years than most guys have left to hunt. So the only option is to clear the landscape and just start over inside their high fence.

That is what will ultimately happen in Iowa on the larger managed farms. When land segmentation and high grading leads to widespread low scoring genetics. There will be no other alternative. There is no place left for the guys with money to flee to. Because there is really no other States with regulations conducive to growing top end bucks. Baiting, crossbows, and November gun seasons have basically ruined all the other midwest States.

Without increasing the overall deer population significantly and culling lower scoring bucks Iowa will continue down the high grading road. Just a question of how fast. Land segmentation speeds it up. Hard to slow that with land prices and everyone wanting there own place. Social media pimping big bucks for likes speeds it up. Hard to slow that with everyone on their phones 24/7. But if you want to really speed it up just go to a one buck State. We will be there in just 15-20 years. Just like the Amana Colonies accomplished.