Great podcast to listen to! Steve Hansen on the Land Podcast
tall@wide
PMA Member
I liked the podcast! I've never met Steve, but I can tell he obviously lives whitetails. One thing I can really relate to that he talked about is how hard it is to get on giant, old bucks now. I've thought about this a lot of the years and think it's mainly because hunting has become easier, and the great genetic bucks get shot when they are young. Everyone has cell cams, food plots, and weapons that make hunting easier and the great genetic bucks just don't have the chance to get old.
I agree. Major change of the game was cell cams. They're cheap and most everyone who has a farm runs them or some sort of camera. Literally every good genetic buck is being watched by someone
tall@wide
PMA Member
Yep, and late muzz these bucks are extremely vulnerable. Almost every landowner I talk to says the same thing. I ask, do you have any good 5+ old bucks on your place this year? Almost 100% of the time they say no just the culls live to be old because no one shoots them. The young bucks with good genetics get shot by neighbors. Of course, if you are lucky enough to own 1000s of acres or own in a well-managed neighborhood your odds go up on the old, high scorers.
The other great point made…. Our deer population is HALF of what it was in 2005. I gotta admit- MOST the state needs more deer. A lot of areas need to lay off the killing. Is there some high density pockets? Sure. But overall- the #’s are clear- HALF. It’s no mystery with: 1) easier hunting/weapons 2) half the deer 3) several ehd outbreaks …. We are “struggling”. I do believe the pendulum will swing the other way & things will improve. I don’t think it’ll be “2005” but it’ll rebound. More folks that understand all these issues will help us rebound as well.
Rous14
PMA Member
Yes! I’ve been banging this drum relentlessly for the last 8 years and 95% of the time it’s met with indifference or even doubt. Most hunters do not realize how significantly smaller the herd numbers are and worse, when presented with data that illustrates it, they just don’t seem to care or understand the affect. It’s been both bizarre and frustrating for me when having these types of conversations with other hunters. Have to go back 33 years to find fewer deer vehicle accidents in IL, a statistic they track per county. 33 years!
Been saying for long time that until the “celebrity” folks start beating this drum it won’t really get heard.
Rous14
PMA Member
Pretty fascinating discussion too on that large tract of land that the owners are having a hard time getting a buck bigger than 160” on. Said that he and Winke both consulted, gave vastly different recommendations (which is interesting in and of itself) but that basically they are both stumped by what could be going on there. Makes no sense and I can’t think of any cause or reason for it personally. Steve makes the point that the genetics are there but imo that’s the only possible cause I can figure is that somehow the genetics aren’t there….but why not? How is that even possible. Makes me wonder if there’s still something going on on a broader scale throughout the Midwest that we haven’t put our finger on yet as managers.
tall@wide
PMA Member
I'd love to know what the neighbors are like surrounding that larger parcel..I'm betting a lot of bucks get shot by neighbors and EHD is more than likely taking a fair number of mature bucks too.
Neighbors are pretty good in the surrounding areas, a bunch of 500 acre tracts and quite a few over 1000. My old farm was just down the road, my bordering neighbors were 1200 acres 720 and 1000 and I had the same issues. Pre ehd there were so many mature bucks that you couldn’t kill 10 percent of them, and I believe most of the truly big deer were 7-8 years old. After ehd almost all the great genetic bucks are dead at 5, very few people, even in that neighborhood that are allowing them to get past 5 unless they’re poor genetics. Deer in that neighborhood are not hard to kill, they are hard to keep alive.
JakeHofer
Member
The conclusion I picked up was the fact they were focusing on shooting does more than taking out 'cull' bucks. Nonetheless, it's wild that a farm of that size isn't producing 160"+ whitetails given the past track record!
Bassattackr
Well-Known Member
Only 3% of deer taken were by nonresident hunters.. Interesting stat.
Rous14
PMA Member
EHD for sure but seems like a high % of the time you know at age 5 whether a buck is a great genetic buck or not. We try to shoot as many of the 5yr old bucks as possible on our farm that are 150 or below thinking that they have the lower end genetics so wouldn’t think that’s an issue but maybe I’m wrong
YtailFreak
Active Member
First of all, Id like to say a big THANK YOU to Steve on all of his efforts along side Skip at the capital. Much Appreciated!
The discussion on the large tract not producing high end deer reminds me a lot of the Winke Farm/Albia area. Is too much "management" a bad thing?
The discussion on the large tract not producing high end deer reminds me a lot of the Winke Farm/Albia area. Is too much "management" a bad thing?
Rous14
PMA Member
I kinda lost track of what the Winke farm was producing after he sold it….has it not really been all that great in the last 5 years you saying? I didnt think it was ever all that great for those 5-8 years or whatever after the ehd outbreak. Which seemed odd to me as does the farm in the podcast you reference. Can’t imagine too much management is somehow having an adverse effect on antler quality but it’s definitely a head scratcher. I kinda said the same thing, almost like there is something broader going on that we haven’t discovered or fully understood yet. Are the chemicals doing more harm than we think? Skip has talked about the lack of sulfur or other micros that used to be more prevelant is that it? No idea but sure seems like something is there beyond just the crossgun, longer seasons, cell cam stuff that we all agree is also impacting it.
tall@wide
PMA Member
Steve(hans1), what do you think about this? I still think trigger control is a huge factor in areas not producing the giants they did in the past. Cell cams have only been around a few years and now hunters see a high scoring buck on camera and rush to the farm to hunt him..Plus some muzzleloaders shoot 4-500 yards today making it a cake walk during late muzz
Bassattackr
Well-Known Member
I thought the point of killing massive amounts of does late season (all carrying dominant buck fawn genes) was quite the eye opener. Had not thought of that before..
Shooting pregnant does - Culling out all the best genetics ?? Then surrounding area does backfill with lesser buck fawns from secondary / lesser habitat.
Interesting hypothesis.
Shooting pregnant does - Culling out all the best genetics ?? Then surrounding area does backfill with lesser buck fawns from secondary / lesser habitat.
Interesting hypothesis.
Interesting conversation for sure. I had a lot of first hand knowledge of the Monroe Co Winke farm. I sold the approx 400 acre part to him. We did well on that farm and he did also until the EHD of 2012. Then it seemed like the top end never was there like the “old days“
The comment on Trigger control is exactly the problem ,it’s hard to for enough people to pass the Super Star genetic bucks to allow them to become their potential. It is also surprising how far some Bucks will travel during certain stages of their lives. This only increases the risk. Hopefully with more people understanding the challenges of producing mature deer and a few years of low EHD things will trend to more Big Deer on the Landscape.
The comment on Trigger control is exactly the problem ,it’s hard to for enough people to pass the Super Star genetic bucks to allow them to become their potential. It is also surprising how far some Bucks will travel during certain stages of their lives. This only increases the risk. Hopefully with more people understanding the challenges of producing mature deer and a few years of low EHD things will trend to more Big Deer on the Landscape.
tall@wide
PMA Member
^^^^. It seems like everywhere in the Midwest has less mature bucks now than in the past. I had an incredible farm in Illinois but had 2 bad neighbors that bordered me. They pounded the young good genetic bucks, and it destroyed the area. I sold because of that. Even in Iowa it's an issue, almost everyone wants to hunt old, mature bucks, but VERY VERY few will do what it takes to grow them. I think a great genetic buck has almost zero % chance of surviving past 3 years old in most areas. Virtually every farm is hunted, and everyone has trail cams. So, if a buck with great potential is around, everyone in the area knows about him. I understand that 90% of hunters don't really care about age and a 160 3 year old is a great buck for them. But for guys hunting older age class bucks it is frustrating in today's whitetail world. It is tough finding a farm in very well managed areas with large landowners because those farms just don't make it to the market for sale. Iowa is definitely the best state for having a chance at the old giants, but it is still not easy and will only get worse as time passes.