High grading bucks

[tall@wide]

I was thinking that buck hunting today is similar to loggers high grading timber. I'd wager a guess and say 95% of hunters don't really care how old a buck is as long as he has a big rack. They say they do, but really don't care when the moment of truth arrives. Most people will shoot a 150 inch 3 year old instead of a 7 year old 125. This is why most of the old bucks you see on your farm are cull type bucks (They survived because no one wanted to shoot them). Scientifically, over time hunting great genetic bucks should trend toward less and less opportunity because they are being shot when young. I see this trend everywhere I hunt whitetails and it's a concern to me. I know it will never change and there is really no way to stop it, but it's frustrating.

 

[Obsessed]

Ever harvest a button buck by mistake when when thinking it was a doe to bag and put in the freezer? If so, CONGRATULATIONS!!!, you just contributed to your own frustration.

 

[letemgrow]

That's definitely most of the old bucks I've seen in person and on camera.

There's a few ghosts around that have some head gear.

 

[miniwhitetails]

Definitely. However if I have pictures of certain deer that I know for certain are 3 (based off pictures) I will pass them every time. I passed a 160" 3 year old two years ago, the following year he thankfully lived and was over boone. Unfortunately he took off at the end of sept/early oct and I never seen him or got any more pictures. Still glad I took that chance though. The problem is on the deer I don't know or have history of. So if I'm out hunting say Nov 15th and 160" deer strolls in that I have no clue on, I would probably shoot (admittedly), I do look at the body though and try to judge the best I can (not that going off body always is true either) . So it is definitely hard when you don't know the age. If I had pictures of a buck that I knew for sure was 7 (years and years of photos), you can bet I'd be targeting him. Just probably not solely.

But in your scenario it would like this for me personally if I am being honest:
150 3 yr old (pass)
125 7 yr old (shoot late nov through rest of season if opportunity presents itself)
150 5 yr old (shoot),
160 4 yr old (shoot)
bunch of other 3 yr olds (pass)

I would likely focus on other 4 and 5 year olds mostly if that makes sense. I do think there are other hunters with the same mindset. Is that the majority? Probably not. In my scenario I am passing on the old bully early in the season, is that contributing to the problem? probably.

I think a lot of the bully's live because hunters have more than one target (and the bully usually slips down the list).

The TV hunters have the luxury of bringing in their "buddies" to shoot the bucks they don't want (old 8's, etc.). I do not have that luxury but once I have kids, they will fill that void (hopefully).

 

[Spysar]

It's not like logging...

Yes, you are right. I don't care about age when I go to Iowa. I want a big buck when I go.

And who cares about age when you let them age. It's nothing to brag about if you let a deer live and then beat your chest about how old it is. It's not like the deer outwitted everyone and got old on it's own intelligence. And I don't care about the deer you named, farmed, and killed it with cell cam either....

 

[Bassattackr]

I was thinking that buck hunting today is similar to loggers high grading timber. I'd wager a guess and say 95% of hunters don't really care how old a buck is as long as he has a big rack. They say they do, but really don't care when the moment of truth arrives. Most people will shoot a 150 inch 3 year old instead of a 7 year old 125. This is why most of the old bucks you see on your farm are cull type bucks (They survived because no one wanted to shoot them). Scientifically, over time hunting great genetic bucks should trend toward less and less opportunity because they are being shot when young. I see this trend everywhere I hunt whitetails and it's a concern to me. I know it will never change and there is really no way to stop it, but it's frustrating.

I agree with the logging analogy, spot on.

The issue is widespread, the opportunity at a trophy will always be "new" to the bulk of the weekend hunter population so that conundrum will always persist.

However, I think more and more hunters are adapting to be the change you want to see. And the result of opportunities are increasing on a widespread scale.

More folks are passing younger or smaller bucks for the opportunity for something better (even if it is score over age), managing their properties for better bucks DESPITE the push and onslaught from state agencies / DNRs, special interest groups, farming bureaus and car insurance companies. Go back several decades and this was definitely not the case.

We ARE winning, despite what the government agencies and special interest groups want.. But will never admit!!

They want their liberalization of the sport to ride inside the trojan horse of CWD and EHD.

 

[Daver]

I also think the logging analogy is a good one...and...I have admittedly "high graded" myself a couple of times. I could list out a lot of reasons why, but the fact remains that I did it. But, we have also NOT done it dozens of times, allowing the younger bucks to get to at least 5. So, on balance, we don't high grade very much, but our record is not perfect.

This year we got hit hard by EHD, so there weren't many options out there, but my son targeted a modest racked buck that we know to be at least 7 and he got him. We felt as good about that as many larger racked deer ever.

If you are hunting your own ground and have any type of trail cam operation going, you should be able to recognize just about every deer out there. Then it is up to you to lay off the younger bucks.

 

[MarkF]

It's not like logging...

Yes, you are right. I don't care about age when I go to Iowa. I want a big buck when I go.

And who cares about age when you let them age. It's nothing to brag about if you let a deer live and then beat your chest about how old it is. It's not like the deer outwitted everyone and got old on it's own intelligence. And I don't care about the deer you named, farmed, and killed it with cell cam either....

Nothing to beat your chest about if you travel to Iowa and shoot a young buck with large antlers either.

 

[tall@wide]

Ever harvest a button buck by mistake when when thinking it was a doe to bag and put in the freezer? If so, CONGRATULATIONS!!!, you just contributed to your own frustration.

Maybe as a kid, but I would never make that mistake now as an adult.

 

[tall@wide]

It's not like logging...

Yes, you are right. I don't care about age when I go to Iowa. I want a big buck when I go.

And who cares about age when you let them age. It's nothing to brag about if you let a deer live and then beat your chest about how old it is. It's not like the deer outwitted everyone and got old on it's own intelligence. And I don't care about the deer you named, farmed, and killed it with cell cam either....

You are in good company of the 95% group I mentioned.

 

[Obsessed]

The way I see it is... THIS topic is one of the main wedges driven between us fellow hunters / brethren. We all have our different opinions, but when it comes to venting frustrations about other hunters harvesting big 'young' bucks, you are talking down to a good majority of us. If you choose to farm / manage 'your' deer , by all means, have at it. Just don't talk down anyone else with different hunting priorities. Elitists tend to come across as an arrogant, narcissistic bunch.

 

[miniwhitetails]

The way I see it is... THIS topic is one of the main wedges driven between us fellow hunters / brethren. We all have our different opinions, but when it comes to venting frustrations about other hunters harvesting big 'young' bucks, you are talking down to a good majority of us. If you choose to farm / manage 'your' deer , by all means, have at it. Just don't talk down anyone else with different hunting priorities. Elitists tend to come across as an arrogant, narcissistic bunch.

I agree with this 100%. I always congratulate every hunter who shoots a deer, and it is genuine too. Regardless of size or age. I personally choose to be selective but that is 100% my choice, I don't push it on to others. At the end of the day, these are four legged animals. Created by the man upstairs, for us all to enjoy.

 

[Spysar]

You are in good company of the 95% group I mentioned.

So I guess you want 95% of us to do what 5% of you want???

And the logging thing... Real foresters that run logging companies around here, manage for the future. I guess they don't do that in Iowa? I can't even imagine much of a timber industry at all with 8% timber (skip) in your state.

And guessing lots of you are farmers? In what farming world are male animals allowed to "mature", or even have more than one? One bull, one boar, one rooster... that's how farming goes. Most male animals are done in quick.

 

[JNRBRONC]

I've also wondered if shooting the trophy racked buck is good or bad for the herd as a whole.

I saw lots of YOUNG bucks locked down with does this past fall. So even if a decent 3 year old gets hammered, he might have had a chance at some point in his life to add to the gene pool.

I've also read that the doe has a lot to contribute to the genes.

I keep hearing that you can't "cull" certain characteristics out of the wild deer herd, this might be the case in regards to large racks as well as "scrub" bucks.

 

[Obsessed]

I've also wondered if shooting the trophy racked buck is good or bad for the herd as a whole.

I saw lots of YOUNG bucks locked down with does this past fall. So even if a decent 3 year old gets hammered, he might have had a chance at some point in his life to add to the gene pool.

I've also read that the doe has a lot to contribute to the genes.

I keep hearing that you can't "cull" certain characteristics out of the wild deer herd, this might be the case in regards to large racks as well as "scrub" bucks.

Running with this... Doe genetics absolutely have an impact on creating future 'Trophy' buck offspring. Same goes for young stud bucks mating with does. The young bucks won't be old enough to show their stud genetics, however they're old enough to breed and pass their stud genetics along.

 

[Bassattackr]

I keep hearing that you can't "cull" certain characteristics out of the wild deer herd, this might be the case in regards to large racks as well as "scrub" bucks.

I have mixed thoughts on this. I agree you cannot cull certain genes, wild roaming animals and all..

But I think you can minimize and displace through removal, which is the target of most IMO. If you kill the 110" bully, surely the better bucks would have access to the better areas, breeding more. It's basic math.

Can you remove them all? No. Can you minimize them and maximize the better bucks, and their breeding opportunities? I think so.

 

[bluedog69]

I have heard it said that in general the average buck makes it to 145 regardless of age.
Here in northen MO I would about gaurantee that there are very few 4.5 year old bucks
period. The huge majority are killed at 2 and 3.

I think way to many people assume that all deer will make 170 if given the chance.
Trying to control or predict genetic outcomes with coonhounds, horses, or cattle is next to impossible.
Only a super small percentage are "what we are wanting".
Genetics in a wild free ranging herd is not controllable.

There are "crap bucks" old and young due to millions and millions of genetic combinations that are always going to be there.

 

[bluedog69]

If you are hunting your own ground and have any type of trail cam operation going, you should be able to recognize just about every deer out there. Then it is up to you to lay off the younger bucks.

This is where MO and IA probably differ a lot. Over the last 7 years of running 20 cameras on 600 acres. We have maybe had a dozen bucks on camera 2 years. Only 1 buck that I know of, we had him on camera 3 years. My boys would say maybe 2 or 3 bucks more have been on there several years but they are generic looking how do you know for sure deer.

 

[Daver]

This is where MO and IA probably differ a lot. Over the last 7 years of running 20 cameras on 600 acres. We have maybe had a dozen bucks on camera 2 years. Only 1 buck that I know of, we had him on camera 3 years. My boys would say maybe 2 or 3 bucks more have been on there several years but they are generic looking how do you know for sure deer.

I don't doubt you, for that reason I am glad I am not in MO.

 

[Bassattackr]

This is where MO and IA probably differ a lot. Over the last 7 years of running 20 cameras on 600 acres. We have maybe had a dozen bucks on camera 2 years. Only 1 buck that I know of, we had him on camera 3 years. My boys would say maybe 2 or 3 bucks more have been on there several years but they are generic looking how do you know for sure deer.

May want to reassess your property, habitat or camera locations.

This year alone, I have 7 bucks that are 3.5 YR on camera on our small 60 acre farm in Central MO. All but two I have previous history with as 2.5 YR. I only have one 4.5 YR but that is fairly typical for us. Drops off very sharply after 3.5, every year after rifle season.

Surrounding pressure wise: I'm consistently in the top 3 harvest counties on MDC list in the state, annually.