Totally understand your point. But my wall is pretty bare. So I’d be thrilled with it there this year.
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Totally understand your point. But my wall is pretty bare. So I’d be thrilled with it there this year.
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letemgrow
PMA Member
To Skip’s point, check out these two bucks shot on my farm 19 years apart….
Have a drop in the exact same spot and the last tine on the right beam of each is the same.
The genetics definitely keep cycling back around.
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letemgrow
PMA Member
I can’t find the post on here, but someone posted a Wayne county buck a few years back that was identical to this buck shot in Mercer county on the farm next to me. They both looked identical with the double tines on the left side. The Wayne County buck was still on the hoof in the pic someone took from their stand.
Not the same buck tho, this one here was only 3.
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Not the same buck tho, this one here was only 3.
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letemgrow
PMA Member
This buck would have been smoked without neighbors passing him during rifle.
He was passed at least 5 times that I know of on multiple farms, including mine. The 3 year olds typically cover so much ground that those with the best head gear aren't making it since people shoot for antler size alone. He'd be on a camera of mine on the north end of the farm, then later that day he'd be on a neighbors camera at the south end of their farm. The majority of the biggest 3 year olds I know of didn't make it to 4....
This 3 year old has a good chance since he survivied most of rifle that I know of at least.
He was passed at least 5 times that I know of on multiple farms, including mine. The 3 year olds typically cover so much ground that those with the best head gear aren't making it since people shoot for antler size alone. He'd be on a camera of mine on the north end of the farm, then later that day he'd be on a neighbors camera at the south end of their farm. The majority of the biggest 3 year olds I know of didn't make it to 4....
This 3 year old has a good chance since he survivied most of rifle that I know of at least.
Here is what I an getting at though. Your county has probably 4 - 5 times the deer mine does. No deer lives solely on 60 acres unless he is a very old wise wise wise deer(rare) and that 60 has zero human intereference.My point being..
I have 60 acres. You have 600. I don't have 10X the deer you do
Mine is not all in one piece. I wish it was. I have a 65, 85, 150, and 300. They make about a 25 mile rectangle.
If I could put it all together I could grow bucks easier, but most would still get shot by the neighbors.
The fact that your county has a much higher population of deer to start with about guarantees you to have more bucks of any age category.
I was about to get into front tooth aging, but then came across way to many cases where a guy had a buck on camera for 7 years worth of pics and they aged him at 5. The guy figured he was 3 or 4 in his first set of pics. Of course he thought they were 4 to 5 years off in their analysis and was never going to spend another dime with them. That is just one case I remember. There were several others like this.
Bassattackr
Well-Known Member
Agreed. None of the ones I have photos of live solely on our property.
Daver
PMA Member
We too operate with a "take out the bullies" approach, as do other neighbors, which is great. Our criteria is much like yours ^^. To that point, my son shot the only "shooter" we had this year on Nov. 11. He was the very definition of a bully buck, a 7 year old beefy brute with a surly disposition. We, and others, had tried unsuccessfully to get him in previous years mainly for this reason. (We had bad, bad EHD for us this year, knocking out lots of deer and almost shutting us down in terms of hunting this year.)
Well, my son checked cams on Wednesday this week and there were two "new" bucks that have essentially shown up in the past 3-4 weeks. They have been there A LOT, both day and night, in the time since the bully was removed. Coincidence? I don't think so.
While we cannot be sure, the timing could not be more suspicious in terms of the "void" left by the bully was almost immediately "filled" by two other "definite possible maybes, sure would like to see them next year" bucks. We know from neighbors that these two bucks previously spent almost all of their time on other, nearby farms, while we rarely, if ever, got their pics. Now that we took out the neighborhood bully...these two seemed to have moved right on in.
We also consider "attitude" when assigning a buck to the "management list", as I firmly believe that some deer can live in peace with others. Some though want to crack every other buck they can and they can drive other deer off IMO.
CurtisWalker
Well-Known Member
So I went to school for wildlife biology. Got my bachelor’s degree and these conversations always make me laugh a little.
There’s a few differences between the trees and animals. The main one that makes the biggest difference is that trees are stationary, animals can travel.
When trying to change the genetics of an animal population you have to cut out the possibility of new individual migrating into that population. Greatest way to explain this is imagine two high points that has two different “herds” of deer on them. As long as a deer goes from one population to the other the general genetics remain the same. Now picture a massive rainstorm separates those two high points. Deer can’t cross the raging river. Over time those two populations would most likely begin to genetically differ. Hence evolution and so on. However it takes many generations to even notice a slight difference.
Now remember you’re talking about culling bucks. 50% of the population as does and bucks are born at roughly a 1 to 1 ratio…Animals gets 50% of its genes from each parent. Some are different like horses which get like 60% from the maternal side. I’m not exactly sure the percentage break down for whitetails. So you might be passing a doe with the genetics of a so called “cull” buck and letting the younger great genetic bucks live while harvesting “cull” bucks. But guess what that doe you just passed is carrying those same genetics and just cancelled out the work you thought you were doing by passing the good genetic bucks…
Now let’s add in the new studies that a doe’s health while pregnant is one of the biggest influences on a bucks future rack size. So here comes late season and there’s a nice 5 year old doe and a couple yearlings and then a couple fawns. What deer is a person shooting 99% of the time if they have a antlerless tag? That’s right the 5 year old doe that’s in the best shape out of all the deer listed above. That right there taking away the doe with the potential to produce the best racked buck in the future.
There’s so much more that goes into wildlife biology and genetics compared to plants. You can change plant genetics pretty easy in one or two generations.
Another small note: You’ll end up seeing more “cull”bucks when people aren’t shooting them and are shooting the deer with potential because well if you have 3 cull bucks and 3 nice bucks and all 3 nice bucks get killed. You’ll see the 3 cull bucks still. Higher survival percentage increases the number being observed.
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There’s a few differences between the trees and animals. The main one that makes the biggest difference is that trees are stationary, animals can travel.
When trying to change the genetics of an animal population you have to cut out the possibility of new individual migrating into that population. Greatest way to explain this is imagine two high points that has two different “herds” of deer on them. As long as a deer goes from one population to the other the general genetics remain the same. Now picture a massive rainstorm separates those two high points. Deer can’t cross the raging river. Over time those two populations would most likely begin to genetically differ. Hence evolution and so on. However it takes many generations to even notice a slight difference.
Now remember you’re talking about culling bucks. 50% of the population as does and bucks are born at roughly a 1 to 1 ratio…Animals gets 50% of its genes from each parent. Some are different like horses which get like 60% from the maternal side. I’m not exactly sure the percentage break down for whitetails. So you might be passing a doe with the genetics of a so called “cull” buck and letting the younger great genetic bucks live while harvesting “cull” bucks. But guess what that doe you just passed is carrying those same genetics and just cancelled out the work you thought you were doing by passing the good genetic bucks…
Now let’s add in the new studies that a doe’s health while pregnant is one of the biggest influences on a bucks future rack size. So here comes late season and there’s a nice 5 year old doe and a couple yearlings and then a couple fawns. What deer is a person shooting 99% of the time if they have a antlerless tag? That’s right the 5 year old doe that’s in the best shape out of all the deer listed above. That right there taking away the doe with the potential to produce the best racked buck in the future.
There’s so much more that goes into wildlife biology and genetics compared to plants. You can change plant genetics pretty easy in one or two generations.
Another small note: You’ll end up seeing more “cull”bucks when people aren’t shooting them and are shooting the deer with potential because well if you have 3 cull bucks and 3 nice bucks and all 3 nice bucks get killed. You’ll see the 3 cull bucks still. Higher survival percentage increases the number being observed.
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Buckscrape
Well-Known Member
These kinds of discussions are always interesting. I'd say 50% don't care what they kill as long as it has antlers. 40% will hold out for the big rack (for most it's anything over 140) regardless of age. 8% want age with a big rack. And 2% are focused solely on age. Of course no data to back any of those numbers up, just my opinion.
One thing that's pretty much a given is that a buck won't express his full potential until he's done growing, which for most is around that fifth year. But for you guys with the wild card of EHD, you might be taking a pretty big gamble trying to get a buck to 5. Here it's the winters that are the wild card.
One thing that's pretty much a given is that a buck won't express his full potential until he's done growing, which for most is around that fifth year. But for you guys with the wild card of EHD, you might be taking a pretty big gamble trying to get a buck to 5. Here it's the winters that are the wild card.
Nrharris
PMA Member
Between ehd and the lack of big blocks of cover where I am, most bucks don't make 5 years old. If I only pursued bucks 5 and older. I might only have a buck to hunt once every 3 or 4 years. For me personally at 4 years old it is game on for me.
Thinkin Rut
PMA Member
Ok Curtis...get ready to laugh your arse off. So, can a so called cull buck be a genetic beast sleeper or flip side, a monster buck throw off 130s if joined with the right or wrong doe?
Daver
PMA Member
In a lot areas, I think you are right on. ^^ Years ago I hunted an area with a strong deer population, but age structure and sex ratio was whack. Lots of hunting pressure...especially on anything with antlers. Way too many does and older bucks were rare.
There, you would be very fortunate to see a 3 year old buck. Maybe once per fall. It is definitely situational (neighborhood) IMO.
Yes. Absolutely, yes.
CurtisWalker
Well-Known Member
Exactly and exactly why you can never change the genetics just by hunting.
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CW comes in swinging with some dang good points. This subject is also so interesting because NO ONE fully understands it. There’s so many dynamics to it. I personally don’t even think the folks that have done study after study on it can definitively know all the dynamics due to how big a sample area would be needed & the amount of time.
clearly my previous statements said: nothing will likely change it except the regulation dynamics across huge areas with lots of hunters & time. I do anecdotally believe I’ve impacted my home area with a lot of folks involved over 15 years of time. Big area (countless neighbors on board) & focus on targeting lower scoring as early as possible, letting best gens live much longer than normal & a lot of time. I also think if we let off…. 5-10 years it would revert back as the genetics would clearly be diluted to what they are like at a wider range. I do think we are having a “micro impact”.
CW…. Lemme ask u this one…
“Area A” vs “Area B”…. Nutrition: the same. Genetics: the same (vastly diverse but the same). EVERYTHING THE SAME. Both areas are hundreds of thousands of acres - or just call them STATES. “Area A” or state has a far lessor age class with rifles in early rut. Best genetic bucks targeted & shot far more frequently than lessor genetics. Thus more lessor gen bucks doing more breeding (un-natural due to hunter targeting/preference)
“Area B” the best gen bucks can make it through rut & live to an older age far more often. This also means the lower scoring bucks are also doing the breeding too though. More even breeding opportunities vs Area A.
Do u believe that over a wide area, countless thousands of hunters & decades of time- the targeting of younger higher genetic bucks & the passing of lessor genetic bucks can change the genetics on average?
IMHO- I believe YES. But- I am the last dude on earth to claim I even remotely have Whitetail’s or their biology figured out. Very open minded here & lemme know thoughts.
letemgrow
PMA Member
Hasn’t there been something along these lines happen in areas with albinos that they’re not legal to kill?
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Awesome awesome statement. I have often said that we should be managing doe quality more than buck quality.
Missouri pushed a trend of shoot the biggest doe and leave the young ones. To cut the population down Well if you shoot the does that will raise the biggest healthiest fawn and always go for the biggest doe you are in fact "shooting" for does that are smaller in the future.
Takes a cow 5 years to start throwing her best calves.
tall@wide
PMA Member
I definitely think if you shoot the worst genetic bucks in an area (I call them John Does or plain Janes) it makes a difference over time..Usually these are poor 8pts or deer that have short tines, etc...Like I mentioned before, most hunters have the bulk of their older deer now being poor genetic bucks. I think it's because they survived to be old since no one wanted to shoot them. What Skip's neighborhood is doing makes perfect sense to me if you want more high scoring, better genetic bucks.