Oak Savannas

[IQDM]

My oak savanna project is going well too... My house is on one end of our property and right behind it we have a oak knowl with a food plot in it... I decided to try a savanna here this year and see how it goes before I savanna'ize any of our other knowls.

This is what it looked like before...

This is what it looked like just before I seeded it

I seeded half CIR and half Little Bluestem... mainly because that was all I had on hand and I heard that snow was in the forcast. I didnt think I had time to order more Little blue, so I just did the rest with CIR. hopefully it will do ok in partial shade. I guess it will be sort of a test. Do you guys think I have too many oaks too close together to get enough light in? I took out quite a few hickories and other scrub trees.

Good thing I got the seed down! This is what it looked like the next morning!

 

[Daver]

Sorry if this has already been addressed...

but how many acres would be required to effectively go for an oak savannah? I have a couple of areas on my farm that may work, but I am not sure how big of an area that I would need to consider it.

Keep the good posts coming though, they are very interesting and informative.

 

[dbltree]

hopefully it will do ok in partial shade. I guess it will be sort of a test

Your oaks are a little thicker then mine so it will be interesting? I'm learning myself so only time will tell how close the oaks can be?

Great pictures...thanks for sharing in this thread!! :way:

but how many acres would be required to effectively go for an oak savannah? I have a couple of areas on my farm that may work, but I am not sure how big of an area that I would need to consider it.
.

As far as cost share is concerned I am not aware of any required acreage but I haven't recieved my paperwork yet.

I think anywhere from a 1/2 acre on up could be restored Dave...

 

[dgallow]

IQDM,

Did you treat the hickory stumps and let them rest for a year before tilling or dozing or whatever ground prep you did?

Only reason I mention this is because chaining and(or) dozing timber to create pasture is our area was very popular back in the 70's and 80's. Without killing timber with herbicide hickory sprouts from roots were thick as hair on a dog's back in a few years.

Something to keep an eye on and use fire 3 yr from now to control!

 

[IQDM]

I did not treat any stumps... I was in such a hurry to get it seed ready I guess I just plain forgot. It is right behind my house so I will be able to keep an eye on the regrowth with out having to venture through it too much. Spot spraying and burns should keep them at bay i'm hoping. otherwise I guess I could still go out and treat the stumps seeing as I just tilled around them with a harley rake.

 

[IQDM]

is the point of a oak savanna to let the baby bur oaks grow up through the grass? If so, how do I protect them from becoming char-grilled oaks when I burn?

 

[letemgrow]

I would say for a savannah, those oaks are too close together. There should be a lot more space in between them from the savannahs I have seen on MDC land.

I also wonder how the CIR will affect the little blue since it could possibly grow much taller. Interesting project!!

 

[IQDM]

well I seperated the two plantings... CIR in the more open back half and Little blue in the more shaded front half. I guess we can only wait and see how they do in the shade... I'll keep you guys updated

 

[dbltree]

is the point of a oak savanna to let the baby bur oaks grow up through the grass? If so, how do I protect them from becoming char-grilled oaks when I burn?

The point is to create the "open" savanna atmosphere the way they were orginally and that creates a little different type of habitat. A great combination of native prairie and forbs all under the oaks, raining down acorns!

That type of habitat is very different then an open "park like" habitat commonly found in many hardwood stands, not bad or good but different.

Oaks are fire tolerant but many oak seedlings wil indeed perish if the fuel load is heavy enough to cause an intensely hot burn. In the wild very few seedlings would have survived otherwise it would not be a "savanna" it would be a "forest".

You can of course have some control by reducing fuel load around some seedlings and early on you may have no fuel at all except for leaves.

Remember you cannot burn the first year after seeding NWSG because the new roots are not deep enough to survive the burn....

 

[dgallow]

I did not treat any stumps... I was in such a hurry to get it seed ready I guess I just plain forgot. It is right behind my house so I will be able to keep an eye on the regrowth with out having to venture through it too much. Spot spraying and burns should keep them at bay i'm hoping. otherwise I guess I could still go out and treat the stumps seeing as I just tilled around them with a harley rake.

Really curious how your project turns out. We have timber to thin and will be faced with the same situation as you. Please post pics of your progress over time.

The cut stumps seal over pretty quick after cutting making it harder for the herbicide to work with a delay period. Best if one guy cuts and another treats, or you cut a half dozen then stop and treat. If I'm cuttin a large spot I'll leave the stumps about 18-24" high initially. Then when the other work is done, I'll come back as a last step and cut the stumps lower then treat.

Anyway, for your situation now, if you could just cut a thin slice off the stumps to expose fresh wood and then treat with a mix of 1 quart of Remedy Ultra + 3 quart of diesel, that should give you good control. Treat the cambium layer and outer bark down to the soil all the way around....'don't miss a spot'. You can always dig a few inches of dirt from around the stump with your boot before spraying to expose more bark and get better coverage. I like to leave a 2-4" stump when treating....seems to work best that way.

Resprouts from exposed roots or other smooth bark stage saplings can also be controlled with the above coctail by treating from about 12" high down to soil level...again 'don't miss a spot'. You can do this anytime of year, except for during dought, snow cover, or water inundation.

There is also an RTU formulation of Remedy which requires no mixing, but it's much more expensive than the Ultra mix in the long run. 1 gal of RTU is $45 here while Ultra is $70/gallon but makes 4 gal of mix.

Get a decent 2 gal pump-up sprayer with chemical resistant o-rings and gaskets (ie viton), like the Do-It Best or Solo models. Cheap sprayers don't last too long. We have the 'honey bee' (yellow and black) looking Do-It Best sprayer and really like it.....wide mouth construction for 'easy fill no spill'....protected threads so junk accumulating on top of tank doesn't get inside and clog the tip....4 yr warranty.....only takes 1-3 pumps for sufficient pressure when treating stumps/sprouts.

Foliar applications of Remedy don't work very well on trees, because most will shed leaves before sufficient hebicide is absorbed for effective control. The sprayed tree will be 'suppressed', but that only means one thing....more sprouts from the roots or root collar.

For foliar application on trees, I've had the best luck with 3% gly application late summer. But that nukes any vegetation under the drip line too! :thrwrck: Takes about 2 yr for the tree to start rotting.

That is a few easy options for you. Whatever you treat, just let it sit for a year before cutting or disturbing. Think you'll be surprised how fast the stumps rot after Rem/diesel treatment.

 

[IQDM]

Thanks for the Info!

 

[dbltree]

I toured a freinds place in north central Iowa the other day andl ooked over his savanna oaks.

This area could be restored for certain and native grasses returned but because he needs thick bedding areas I felt he would be better off encouraging brushy habitat by hinging cull trees and inter-planting shrubs and cedars.



What ever he decides he has some beautiful old savanna oaks on his property! :way:



One thing that has been cautioned is to remove litter and debris from around the base of the old oaks before burning because the big trees can be killed if enough fuel load is present around the base.



Some years ago a spark from a vehicle on the interstate started a fire and it burned out of controll and did indeed kill two of the giant oaks...so use caution to clear "stuff" away before burning...especially the first time...

 

[dbltree]

I talked to Gregg from the USFWS and he said to go ahead and get my savanna burned because the sooner the leaves are removed, the sooner forbs and native grasses can come up.

If it ever quits raining...I'm ready!

These babies will peel back the pavement!

Remember that timber burns (oak savanna or not) can increase natural forbs and browse where ever you can safely burn. The leaf blowers make it easy because there is nothing under those leaves but dirt...

 

[dbltree]

My son and I attempted a burn in our oak savanna but there is barely enough to keep a fire going

Then our torch sprung a leak and turned into a sort of flaming fireball that I couldn't convince my son to hang onto...even though I keep yelling from far far away that the odds of it exploding were minimal...

We did get to test out the leaf blower and found if we followed a deer trail it was easy to clear leaves and dead thatch and this pic clearly shows the path and the burn to the left.

The prairie remnants did burn well but with no fuel under the red cedars it promptly went out at that point.

A friend has a wand torch we can borrow that will really throw some flame so we'll give it another try in the cleared area of the savanna and we'll keep tabs on the burned prairie and see how that responds this summer.

The Savanna restoration contract calls for burning at least 3 times in 10 years but I hope to burn yearly as we continue to clear out and restore the savanna.... :way:

 

[tlambert]

"Then our torch sprung a leak and turned into a sort of flaming fireball that I couldn't convince my son to hang onto...even though I keep yelling from far far away that the odds of it exploding were minimal"

My dad seems to try and pull that kind of stuff on me all the time too!!

 

[Daver]

"Then our torch sprung a leak and turned into a sort of flaming fireball that I couldn't convince my son to hang onto...even though I keep yelling from far far away that the odds of it exploding were minimal"

My dad seems to try and pull that kind of stuff on me all the time too!!

Paul - I have the same sorts of problems with my boys...what's wrong with kids these days?!?!? I lose control of a couple of grass fires in their lives and now they want no part of helping me control the next one, sheesh!

Where's the sense of adventure?

 

[Skully]

Great pics Paul. Just a note: things are REALLY dry in SE Iowa right now. Rain on the way though. We responded to a fire call last night where a farmer just wanted to burn a little strip of dead grass and he ended up loosing a bunch of big round bales! Ouch!

 

[dbltree]

Great pics Paul. Just a note: things are REALLY dry in SE Iowa right now. Rain on the way though. We responded to a fire call last night where a farmer just wanted to burn a little strip of dead grass and he ended up loosing a bunch of big round bales! Ouch!

Just trying to give you guys some practice Troy!

Seriously, weather and conditions should always be given first condsideration before "lighting" things up

I till burn lanes around the area and use the leaf blower in the timber but sometimes a little wind can send a single spark beyond that and things can get hairy in a flash....don't ask me how I know...:grin:

Any comments on favorite torches?

Propane Torch Kit — 500,000 BTU

Weed Dragon Propane Torch Kit 100,000 BTU

 

[dgallow]

Mini weed dragon with small propane bottles. Atwoods sells a knock-off of this which has a built-in ignitor. We have the knock-off.

http://www.amazon.com/Red-Dragon-VT-1-32-Propane/dp/B002LH46M8

Like I mentioned on the other forum....parent fire from a drip torch will last longer initially which helps ignition in marginal conditions like timber burns. The lil torch we have is more than sifficient for grass fires.

Old carpet which is wet also makes for a good fire stopper. Just take a 2' x 10' strip and toss it in the pond to soak. Drag that along a fire line to smother if needed. Sure beats slinging we burlap! :thrwrck:

 

[dbltree]

Mini weed dragon with small propane bottles. Atwoods sells a knock-off of this which has a built-in ignitor. We have the knock-off.

http://www.amazon.com/Red-Dragon-VT-1-32-Propane/dp/B002LH46M8

Like I mentioned on the other forum....parent fire from a drip torch will last longer initially which helps ignition in marginal conditions like timber burns. The lil torch we have is more than sifficient for grass fires.

Old carpet which is wet also makes for a good fire stopper. Just take a 2' x 10' strip and toss it in the pond to soak. Drag that along a fire line to smother if needed. Sure beats slinging we burlap! :thrwrck:

Perfect! Thanks!