Our own worst enemies

[tall@wide]

I have been thinking about why there are so few high scoring mature bucks running around, and I think I have a big reason why. I own a farm in Illinois but the same thing applies in Iowa to some degree. 99% of the hunters out there are after high scoring bucks and most hunters really don't care if they shoot a 2 year old or 9 year old, as long as it has nice antlers. The bucks that really roam during the rut are the immature bucks 1.5 thru 3.5 years old, and I think most of these bucks with good genetics get shot every year. So in my opinion, most of the great genetic immature bucks with unlimited potential get shot every single season, and the process repeats every year. Almost every farm in West Central Illinois is hunted and the young, good genetic bucks really don't have a chance to get old. So most of the mature bucks you see, are cull type bucks with poor genetics. The only exception is if you are lucky enough to get into a neighborhood where hunters really are passing the young bucks. I see this as a real problem if you are after old, high scoring bucks like I am. Is it the same in Iowa?

 

[203ntyp]

The bucks that really roam during the rut are the immature bucks 1.5 thru 3.5 years old, and I think most of these bucks with good genetics get shot every year. So in my opinion, most of the great genetic immature bucks with unlimited potential get shot every single season, and the process repeats every year.

I can't speak for Iowans but in PA that's the case. The genetics are better hear but too many up & comers don't get the chance to mature. The same thing in Illinois which I hunted for 10 years straight; first couple years were exceptional but once more non-resident hunters started pouring in the mature buck numbers dropped. The bad part is like you mentioned, the younger buck with great potential are getting whacked since there's fewer trophies, so they shoot younger deer just to fill a tag.

 

[MarkF]

Same in Iowa, most of the “highly managed neighborhoods” really just have a bunch of really nice young bucks and the truly old bucks are mostly turds. Very hard for a deer with big antlers to make it past 5 with food plots, shooting houses and cameras everywhere. Everybody wants to kill a 7 year old giant until a 170 4 year old walks bye.

 

[Daver]

I would say that "it depends". I know there are plenty of areas in Iowa where the people hunting are very dedicated to shooting only older bucks, 5+, and will legitimately pass on high potential, and even high scoring, 3 and 4 years olds. Now then, that may not be the case everywhere in Iowa, but there are definitely areas where that is the case. (FWIW, I passed a legit 175"er as a 4 year old a few years back when he was broadside at 4 yards. Not everyone is that committed, but some are.)

I will throw out a term that I first heard about 25 years ago..."segmentation". That is, as the hunting land is sold and maintained in smaller and smaller segments over time, we should not be surprised to see that it will be harder to get a 5 year old buck...because somewhere on his range, someone is likely to harvest him as a big 3 or 4 year old as that may well be the biggest buck of their hunting career to date and/or the biggest buck available to them that year, etc.

But for now...there are still areas where the local hunters hold off on the younger bucks and therefore there are at least some older ones wandering around every year.

 

[jkratz5]

I think it depends too. I see this around our area and have been guilty of it for sure. As I have harvested more deer I try to challenge myself to be better and shoot truly mature deer. If a 175” 4 year old is standing in front of me thou I don’t have that kind of maturity…..yet.

I will admit I have passed a lot of very nice 4 year olds in the past 5years and it has paid of sometimes and not in others. I always say I can only do my part. If someone else around me shoots the deer I pass I have to live with it and respect it but feel if I personally let enough go one is going to make it.

 

[Obsessed]

Your logic makes sense. Harvest a good up-and-comer before it's fully mature, and you don't get a chance at harvesting it if/when it matures into an absolute old slob. Outside of controlling a large chunk of land, solo or with likeminded others, there's really no way to keep this from happening, and nor should you. I've shot a few young, big bucks, but don't lose any sleep over it thinking about what they could have become. They got my adrenaline pumping enough to take the shot and dead is dead. I've also passed on several young, big bucks too, and I've very seldom ever laid eyes on them again. To each their own.

 

[Tmayer13]

The thing is what you are talking about is very relative. I may think a high scoring deer is 175" where the next guy might think it is 150". I also think that no matter what your standards are there are loads of high scoring deer. I live in Iowa so I am only speaking for what I see here. But every year I have pics or encounters with what I consider a high scoring deer.
The only thing in my opinion we can do is pass the deer we want to see get to maturity and/or have conversations with our neighbors and get everyone on the same page.
I also think this conversation can go well into a different direction. HABITAT!!!! Our habitat as a country sucks! Yes there are plenty of people who own 40-120 acres that have "decent" habitat but overall our forests both public and private are completely mismanaged. The only way to get a buck to 5+ is great cover! He has to be able to hide for 5 seasons to even have a chance. We all (myself included) get so caught up on having the best brassica plot that we forget about the most important food in a whitetails diet...Woody browse. We ALL and yes I said all because that includes everyone on this site need to be better about managing our farms. Yes most people here are trying and working as hard as we can but we can all do better.

Sorry I did not mean to get onto a rant here but habitat has a direct correlation to deer reaching maturity

 

[sep0667]

The thing is what you are talking about is very relative. I may think a high scoring deer is 175" where the next guy might think it is 150".

This for sure. All the time a family member or friend will tell me they saw a 'huge buck' when they were driving somewhere or the one weekend a year shotgun guys in the office saw a 'giant', or some of my buddies that dabble in bowhunting saw a 'big one'. I have family that farms and does 1st season shotgun and they see 'huge bucks' all the time. That all means nothing to me. I hear it every year. Realistically they probably saw a 115 2.5 year old 8 or 10 pt. I've had people show me a trail camera picture of a 'big buck' and its 2.5 year 10 point that goes 120. I've had people tell me where theres a giant buck in the ditch that got hit. I drive by to look and its just your run of the mill 8 pt. I dont mean to knock the deer, just to me, those are not big bucks. To me, 150+ is a big buck. 175 is an absolute giant to me. I know to many on this page 150 is getting a pass everytime. Its all relative. Shoot what makes you happy and if someone else shoots what you would pass, oh well, theres not much you can do about it. Dont take the fun out of it.

 

[tall@wide]

All good comments and I agree with all. I am to the point where I consider a high scoring buck 170+ and I won't shoot any buck I think is under 5.5 years old(most of the bucks on my farm I have trail cam history with and it helps to really pinpoint the age). I truly think in Illinois that the % of mature bucks(5.5+) that score over 170 is somewhere in the 1-2% range. It's a needle in a haystack. I have also fund that most of the neighbors who say they are managing for upper class bucks, really are not, they are mostly shooting the 140-160" 3 year olds.

 

[LoessHillsArcher]

Oh ya, exact same thing happens in IA. Shoot it's happened to me and each person in my family. Quick decisions are generally made based on antlers and next thing you know you've got a 150's 3.5 or 4.5 laying dead infront of you. It happens. Some people do it accidentally and are bummed. Some that is their goal buck each year and they're happy. More error on the later side.

4.5 is the hardest age to get them past IMO. They're still dumb and generally have a nice scoring rack.

 

[LoessHillsArcher]

This for sure. All the time a family member or friend will tell me they saw a 'huge buck' when they were driving somewhere or the one weekend a year shotgun guys in the office saw a 'giant', or some of my buddies that dabble in bowhunting saw a 'big one'. I have family that farms and does 1st season shotgun and they see 'huge bucks' all the time. That all means nothing to me. I hear it every year. Realistically they probably saw a 115 2.5 year old 8 or 10 pt. I've had people show me a trail camera picture of a 'big buck' and its 2.5 year 10 point that goes 120. I've had people tell me where theres a giant buck in the ditch that got hit. I drive by to look and its just your run of the mill 8 pt. I dont mean to knock the deer, just to me, those are not big bucks. To me, 150+ is a big buck. 175 is an absolute giant to me. I know to many on this page 150 is getting a pass everytime. Its all relative. Shoot what makes you happy and if someone else shoots what you would pass, oh well, theres not much you can do about it. Dont take the fun out of it.

Absolutely - there's few true mature or BIG buck hunters around. Most guys see a 150 driving down the road and it's a 180 when they go tell their buddies. Not that ones right and the other wrong. It's just a different type of hunting when you go after 5.5+ yr old deer or BIG bucks.

 

[OMB]

Absolutely - there's few true mature or BIG buck hunters around. Most guys see a 150 driving down the road and it's a 180 when they go tell their buddies. Not that ones right and the other wrong. It's just a different type of hunting when you go after 5.5+ yr old deer or BIG bucks.

The best 3 deer hunters I'm aware of don't have social media and outside of their family or neighbors, nobody ever sees what they kill.

 

[Falldreams]

Deer hunting can and should be enjoyed for many many reasons and quite frankly IMO not just for big horns. Can't eat them horns old timers have always said. But yes they sure are addicting!!!! Now of course no doubt many of us have changed our styles and attitudes of deer hunting with the huge evolution of big horn popularity and the latest fad being "how old" is that deer. Go spend a few years deer hunting other much poorer quality deer states such as Michigan, Pennsylvania and basically all of the east states and one's attitude will quickly change on how great states like Illinois, Kansas and of course here in Iowa, truly are for age and quality. It's VERY easy to always want more and bigger bucks I get it %110. But man it's still just hunting at the end of each season and there's sooooooo much more than just inches and age. Technology and the internet have turned deer hunting into partly an activity of bragging and money sad to say. It's all been very interesting and in some ways sad to watch.

The topic of this thread "Our own worst enemies" is quite interesting......When did a 150" deer become small and overlooked? Why is age so overly talked about now and thrown around like it's the end all of a true trophy? Just some things to think about????? We have been and are living the "hay days" of whitetails and big bucks right now. Myself and countless other lifelong deer hunting enthusiasts have been up and down this ladder of pursuing deer and big bucks, but these are just some interesting thoughts I feel. Each and every hunter is going to have their own reasons for hunting and what "success" means to them as they should. The reality is this......if someone base's their hunting happiness/success on age and inches then it's common knowledge amongst the truly small percentage of overall hunters that in order to have those bucks reach extra age then you need to lock down mega acres (say 900 or more), be in a great genetic neighborhood with like minded neighbors and improve the habitat for their best chances at survival.

 

[Sligh1]

I love it when people’s light bulbs go off on topics like this!!!!! Spot on!!!
Yes, I will admit: I’m in the camp of “whatever the age class is for your area, seasoned hunters should try to hunt the older class of bucks & not hunt for the best genetics if that means targeting younger deer for that said area”.
The more folks are educated about hunting based on AGE OVER SCORE - or age being the biggest factor - best for everyone, the herd, other hunters & having old deer to hunt year in, year out. Drives me bananas to see a dude kill a 150” 3 year old when there’s a 140-160” 5-6 year old on same farm or mature bucks in the area. We all love shooting high scoring deer - more folks realize it’s the magic scenario when they old & high scoring. I’ve had multiple times where there was literally a “120” 5 year old standing next to a 160” 4 year old” & we shoot the 120” one. Love it!!!

All great comments above. I understand the other side of the coin “shoot what makes u happy”. Etc etc. & for folks who have never seen a buck of “xyz inches” - I get it. Or where deer in horrible states rarely get to 2-3 years old- different story (& those states are filled with seasoned hunters pounding 1.5’s!). But seasoned hunters in IA, IL, KS, etc - who have shot a pile of 2-3 year olds …. I PERSONALLY feel like the guys that continue to shoot the same good 2-3 year olds (& usually not incredibly thrilled when I do talk to them ) …. Just rubs me wrong in a lot of ways….. one example…. Shooting “another 3 year old” & cutting the rack off…. A deer that was a year or 2 away from being someone else’s “dream buck”. (Or maybe even a young kids dream buck that year). It’s not great for the herd/age structure & if folks let more deer reach maturity - be older deer for EVERYONE to hunt & be better hunting for EVERYONE.
There’s a % of guys that would shoot the 155” 3 year olds & pass a “125” 5 year old”…. Erks me! I won’t change their minds & they won’t change mine…. They say it’s enjoyment & fun…. I say it’s got a tint of “selfish”, “ego” or “it’s only about me” (& not about other hunters or the resource). It kinda boils down like this: A) do we think about our selves & own enjoyment first & foremost or B) are we thinking of others, the resource, the seasons ahead & how passing bucks can actually be a GOOD THING in big picture. A bit of putting our own self-interests secondary at certain times cause we think of the bigger picture. Just my OPINION. .
My opinion would also drive me to hunt in places with similar mindsets…. For example.., the last place I’d want to hunt by is an OUTFITTER that churns & burns hunters through…. Tons of guys who pay $ that don’t put one ounce of care into what or why they shoot…. Want highest scoring deer & if it’s an area with 5-6 year olds - those hunters will stack the premium genetic 2-3 year olds. That’s what fundamentally ruined MOST of Illinois. It’s also why Iowa isn’t Illinois (cause we don’t have the hunting & paid hunters like IL). I sure hope, for the sake of the EVERYDAY HUNTER…. We don’t turn into Illinois!! Keep iowa great which in turn makes hunting better for EVERYONE!!!!

 

[2.5YR8]

Hopefully none of you are my neighbors, lol. I'm shooting a 150 any day of the season whether he's 3 or 12. I like seeing/shooting big deer, but it's not my top priority. Filling the freezer, providing opportunities for family/friends, and enjoying the property in general outside of deer hunting are all above antlers/age on my list. In the 2 years I've owned my place 5 does, a 4 pointer, and a 130s 3 yr old have been shot. 2 were the 1st deer shot by people new to hunting, and only 1 of the 7 was killed by me. Believe it or not even with 2 young bucks killed there are still plenty of 4+ year old deer in the neighborhood, and I don't live in a neighborhood of large managed properties. Day in and day out across the state deer are better survivors than we are hunters

I think the bigger own worst enemy is being played out in the legislature every year. It's the endless stream of new weapons, and changing/adding seasons that's going to destroy the age structure. I may not be as picky as a lot of people on here, but at least I'll stick to my beliefs. I won't ever be hunting outside of a bow and shotgun, and that goes for anyone I allow on my property. I bet there are a lot of guys on here that were against straight walls and everything else that's changed the last couple, but now that's legal they've jumped on the band wagon, and have given in.

 

[Ishi]

For what I hunt I would shoot a 150 every year even if it has spots! Age is fun to know but it’s just info.
From all these radical bills that get introduced every year we better enjoy the good days cause eventually they will win.

 

[tall@wide]

I love it when people’s light bulbs go off on topics like this!!!!! Spot on!!!
Yes, I will admit: I’m in the camp of “whatever the age class is for your area, seasoned hunters should try to hunt the older class of bucks & not hunt for the best genetics if that means targeting younger deer for that said area”.
The more folks are educated about hunting based on AGE OVER SCORE - or age being the biggest factor - best for everyone, the herd, other hunters & having old deer to hunt year in, year out. Drives me bananas to see a dude kill a 150” 3 year old when there’s a 140-160” 5-6 year old on same farm or mature bucks in the area. We all love shooting high scoring deer - more folks realize it’s the magic scenario when they old & high scoring. I’ve had multiple times where there was literally a “120” 5 year old standing next to a 160” 4 year old” & we shoot the 120” one. Love it!!!

All great comments above. I understand the other side of the coin “shoot what makes u happy”. Etc etc. & for folks who have never seen a buck of “xyz inches” - I get it. Or where deer in horrible states rarely get to 2-3 years old- different story (& those states are filled with seasoned hunters pounding 1.5’s!). But seasoned hunters in IA, IL, KS, etc - who have shot a pile of 2-3 year olds …. I PERSONALLY feel like the guys that continue to shoot the same good 2-3 year olds (& usually not incredibly thrilled when I do talk to them ) …. Just rubs me wrong in a lot of ways….. one example…. Shooting “another 3 year old” & cutting the rack off…. A deer that was a year or 2 away from being someone else’s “dream buck”. (Or maybe even a young kids dream buck that year). It’s not great for the herd/age structure & if folks let more deer reach maturity - be older deer for EVERYONE to hunt & be better hunting for EVERYONE.
There’s a % of guys that would shoot the 155” 3 year olds & pass a “125” 5 year old”…. Erks me! I won’t change their minds & they won’t change mine…. They say it’s enjoyment & fun…. I say it’s got a tint of “selfish”, “ego” or “it’s only about me” (& not about other hunters or the resource). It kinda boils down like this: A) do we think about our selves & own enjoyment first & foremost or B) are we thinking of others, the resource, the seasons ahead & how passing bucks can actually be a GOOD THING in big picture. A bit of putting our own self-interests secondary at certain times cause we think of the bigger picture. Just my OPINION. .
My opinion would also drive me to hunt in places with similar mindsets…. For example.., the last place I’d want to hunt by is an OUTFITTER that churns & burns hunters through…. Tons of guys who pay $ that don’t put one ounce of care into what or why they shoot…. Want highest scoring deer & if it’s an area with 5-6 year olds - those hunters will stack the premium genetic 2-3 year olds. That’s what fundamentally ruined MOST of Illinois. It’s also why Iowa isn’t Illinois (cause we don’t have the hunting & paid hunters like IL). I sure hope, for the sake of the EVERYDAY HUNTER…. We don’t turn into Illinois!! Keep iowa great which in turn makes hunting better for EVERYONE!!!!

Too bad we cannot have counties for like minded hunters like us.. lol We could have some real giants running around. I guess Decatur Co Iowa is like this in some areas?

 

[Sligh1]

Too bad we cannot have counties for like minded hunters like us.. lol We could have some real giants running around. I guess Decatur Co Iowa is like this in some areas?

The whole southern tier of iowa has SOME guys doing this & some guys not. It’s 100% neighborhood dependent. County doesn’t mean much. U could be in “the best reputation” for a county & have neighbors that shoot “any deer with a frame” & ur hunting will be mediocre at best. County means very little. In general- your best chance…. Disregard county name…. Find counties with larger landowners in general & lower populations (& good amount of timber/cover) & that’s your best chance. Still comes down to neighbors.

 

[Sligh1]

Hopefully none of you are my neighbors, lol. I'm shooting a 150 any day of the season whether he's 3 or 12. I like seeing/shooting big deer, but it's not my top priority. Filling the freezer, providing opportunities for family/friends

Fair point, honest & good post. Even though we disagree on this one issue. .
Let me ask you one question or challenge you a bit…..

Wouldn’t u rather own next to a group that manages for older deer vs the group that “shoots em all”? Wouldn’t owning next to land where they had balanced herd, good age structure (& thus more bucks) allow you to have more opportunities? More meat & more enjoyment for friends & family? If we are just talking about opportunities for you- which scenario would u be better off in? On flip side, would u rather be next to like public hunting or ground that’s pounded by outfitted hunts? where the young bucks probably stand the least amount of chance of making it but lot of hunting going on. Which would u prefer?
Again, great post, love the perspective & dialogue on differing view points.

 

[Sligh1]

Folks- ive watched this “slippery slope” take place all over the country…. Case in point… MI …. Grown men crawling the landscape to shoot the 1st 1.5 they see. Shoot it, cut the rack off & nail it to the garage wall or barn. These same grown men, across the state- complain NON-STOP about how crappy the hunting is. They complain “well if I don’t shoot it, it’ll get shot by someone else”. Or say “can’t eat horns, I’m hunting for meat. Trophy in eye of beholder”. The hard core hunters all leave- take trips to where it’s not ruined. The young hunters QUIT…. The hunting sucks & they QUIT!!!!

Same thing “one tier up” happened in IL…. Used to be full of mature deer. Locals hunted like crazy…. Then they opened the flood gates…. All the young good deer got targeted, all the land got tied up, locals were screwed , hunting went down tubes except on big locked up land. The state sold out for the $ & “guys that wanted to pay to GET THEIR BUCK- whatever it was” & the hunting tanked statewide on average.
No access to good hunting for average guy. Little to no chance at mature deer for little guy. On & on.

Repeat this stuff to some extent in MN, WI, etc.
IOWA is one of the last places this hasn’t happened large scale like the others. Right now- u guys shoot a young good one- probably won’t ruin anything. But- I promise you- this whole debate will be vastly different if we change the regs in this state, keep messing with it & open the gates to the armies wanting to come in to “have a good time, fill the freezer & smash that 125” 2.5 year old 10”. Then average folks wont have this debate cause they will have no where to go and literally will only have the options of shooting 2 or 3 year olds because that’s all that exists. I really hope folks understand how badly other states have ruined their resources and why!!!!!! Even the guy that “doesn’t care”…. I assure you- you don’t want an army of guys out targeting 2-3 year olds - it will ruin this great state & your opportunities for fun & quality hunting with great opportunities will vanish.