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WhereAmI said:
So you know the will to live is far superior for deer and coyotes then let's say a pheasant? Interesting. And is shooting at flying pheasants unethical? Ducks? Running rabbits? Sure you have bbs but that's what is designed too kill the animal just like a slug is designed too kill a deer. Sure there are bad hunters that shoot too blast away. However how many times this year did we have to read about somebody hitting one with a bow and not finding it? Hey but that's bow hunting right? Bad shots happen. Period they always will during any season.
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There is also a difference say you shoot a pheasant and wound it. Much easier and faster to recover it same as a rabbit. I've personally never lost a duck or goose that I've hit.

Then when you wound a deer during a drive? Do you stop and wait for the person to recover it or do you just keep pushing to never see the deer again. During a pheasant hunt we stop until the bird is recovered. Yes bowhunters hit deer and lose them but they try their best to make it the fastest recovery possible even when that means waiting. You gut or liver shoot a deer during a drive your just going to bump it out and lose blood. I see more deer left dead after shotgun seasons than I do during the archery, and late muzzleloader seasons.

I'm not going to argue more because there is a complete difference between the animals and they all deserve a fair clean kill. Running shots on a deer is by no means ethical. But if you think it is that's your opinion.
 
CurtisWalker said:
There is also a difference say you shoot a pheasant and wound it. Much easier and faster to recover it same as a rabbit. I've personally never lost a duck or goose that I've hit. Then when you wound a deer during a drive? Do you stop and wait for the person to recover it or do you just keep pushing to never see the deer again. During a pheasant hunt we stop until the bird is recovered. Yes bowhunters hit deer and lose them but they try their best to make it the fastest recovery possible even when that means waiting. You gut or liver shoot a deer during a drive your just going to bump it out and lose blood. I see more deer left dead after shotgun seasons than I do during the archery, and late muzzleloader seasons. I'm not going to argue more because there is a complete difference between the animals and they all deserve a fair clean kill. Running shots on a deer is by no means ethical. But if you think it is that's your opinion.
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Pretty simple during a drive if you shoot a deer you track it. If you bump it you keep tracking it or push areas it ran into. Make all the effort you would with a bow except you have a weapon that allows for greater distAnce on follow up shots. Are there gonna be people that don't follow up like they should? Yes, but there would people that hardly search after wounding one with a bow. Just so happens there are more shotgun hunters hunting than bow hunters which could easily skew the numbers and how one judges wounded/dead deer. And if you think it's unethical that's your opinion, thank goodness we live in America where we all can have our own and be able to speak our minds.
 
Here is how I feel on why ducks/pheasants so forth are different. And I'm sure most will respect that because it does provide much support..

Say in an area of 707 square inches you put 150 bbs. Now suppose a duck has a ventral dorsal area of 360 square inches(way over actual size) you are going to get around 50 bbs into that duck and bbs around it. Since we set up for ducks to be landing towards us I chose the ventral side. Now as the duck is landing yes your margin of error decreases however the bbs or becoming more compact as the target increases. Causing more bbs to hit a vital zone. Didn't do the math on speed due that fact..


Here is why coyotes, deer, and other large game are in the same category. Yes some people can make an ethical running shot. But I bet 95+% of the people who say or think they can can't.

Now take a deer, one slug. Maybe an inch in diameter. The vitals of a deer lets say are 78.5 square inches while the surface area on one side is roughly 630.75 square inches when the deer is broadside. 12.5% of that deer is vitals. Now placing a slug on a running deer you have 10 inches horizontally to hit the vitals. A deer moves 15 mph while running(not even full speed) that is about 264 inches per second. If a slug has a 1760 fps then it takes 0.05 seconds to reach the deer at 30 yards. Now say that deer is running still 264 ips that deer will move 13.5 inches by the time the slug reaches the deer. You only have an inch of marginal error. So if you are aiming for the vitals you'll hit the back legs. Pretty much a pull and pray method to hit a deer on the run.


And bowtech I don't separate whitetail from other large game or does from bucks. They all deserve the quickest kill we can provide. Also I enjoy hunting mature whitetails doe or buck. More enjoyable in my eyes. Also like I've stated before I believe it to be easier to do because the fact I know they have lived a longer life and the younger ones can grow..(think about how people act at a kids funeral compared to an elderly persons).. I don't press my opinions on others in fact I have taken people out this year and said shoot whatever deer makes you happy. I would never call a person off a shot when I knew they are going to cherish that deer just as much as I would if it made it another year. I find does to be just as much of a trophy as a big buck, that's why I take harvest photos with them too. I think pushing is fine when done safe, legally, and ethically. However I don't think there should be party hunting due to the very reason the outfitter in the first post was busted. It's abused. Buy and fill your own tags. Don't have 99 year old grandma doe who can't walk with out a walker buy a tag so you can go fill it.. Party hunting is the main reason shotgunners get the bad rep. People abuse it. Take it away and you'll most likely be left with the shotgun groups that do the things legally, safely, and ethically. My rant is done.
 
It is good to exercise our brains and speak our beliefs. That's why the Big Man that I believe made us, created us all different, so it would not get boring here on this world. Keep in mind though where we are. We could be in the Middle East where they have fought before the time of Christ and will continue fighting until the end of the world. I bet they don't GET to go hunt wild game, they hunt each other and often us. There are some countries you can't even own guns. I'm not telling you anything that you don't already know and I could go on and on about different countries and cultures. I'm just saying God bless America and all the good people, past, present, and future that have given us the opportunity to speak our minds and enjoy our FREEDOM. We are damn lucky to live here. Speak your mind and agree to disagree, but remember we are all on the same team. Love ya brothers. Roll Tide. Boomer Sooner. Wooo Pig Suey Razorbacks. We are Marshall. Yardda Yadda Yadda.

Sent from my iPod touch using IW
 
CurtisWalker said:
Here is how I feel on why ducks/pheasants so forth are different. And I'm sure most will respect that because it does provide much support.. Say in an area of 707 square inches you put 150 bbs. Now suppose a duck has a ventral dorsal area of 360 square inches(way over actual size) you are going to get around 50 bbs into that duck and bbs around it. Since we set up for ducks to be landing towards us I chose the ventral side. Now as the duck is landing yes your margin of error decreases however the bbs or becoming more compact as the target increases. Causing more bbs to hit a vital zone. Didn't do the math on speed due that fact.. Here is why coyotes, deer, and other large game are in the same category. Yes some people can make an ethical running shot. But I bet 95+% of the people who say or think they can can't. Now take a deer, one slug. Maybe an inch in diameter. The vitals of a deer lets say are 78.5 square inches while the surface area on one side is roughly 630.75 square inches when the deer is broadside. 12.5% of that deer is vitals. Now placing a slug on a running deer you have 10 inches horizontally to hit the vitals. A deer moves 15 mph while running(not even full speed) that is about 264 inches per second. If a slug has a 1760 fps then it takes 0.05 seconds to reach the deer at 30 yards. Now say that deer is running still 264 ips that deer will move 13.5 inches by the time the slug reaches the deer. You only have an inch of marginal error. So if you are aiming for the vitals you'll hit the back legs. Pretty much a pull and pray method to hit a deer on the run. And bowtech I don't separate whitetail from other large game or does from bucks. They all deserve the quickest kill we can provide. Also I enjoy hunting mature whitetails doe or buck. More enjoyable in my eyes. Also like I've stated before I believe it to be easier to do because the fact I know they have lived a longer life and the younger ones can grow..(think about how people act at a kids funeral compared to an elderly persons).. I don't press my opinions on others in fact I have taken people out this year and said shoot whatever deer makes you happy. I would never call a person off a shot when I knew they are going to cherish that deer just as much as I would if it made it another year. I find does to be just as much of a trophy as a big buck, that's why I take harvest photos with them too. I think pushing is fine when done safe, legally, and ethically. However I don't think there should be party hunting due to the very reason the outfitter in the first post was busted. It's abused. Buy and fill your own tags. Don't have 99 year old grandma doe who can't walk with out a walker buy a tag so you can go fill it.. Party hunting is the main reason shotgunners get the bad rep. People abuse it. Take it away and you'll most likely be left with the shotgun groups that do the things legally, safely, and ethically. My rant is done.
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While your math is impressive and while it makes sense. You say if you aim at the vitals at a running deer you'll hit the legs. Well obviously the animal is running. It's quite simple you have too lead and swing on shots just like you would any other game like pheasants or doves. Bullets/broad heads are meant to bring down the animal in the quickest way possible. People will use their own discretion and ethics and decide how they harvest an animal. If it doesn't line up with your beliefs great, if it does line up awesome, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.
 
This talk about shotgun hunters injuring running deer is laughable. Almost every year we find a broadhead in a deer we clean. You don't have to try very hard to find pictures online of deer walking around with arrows sticking out of them from poorly placed shots. Many bowhunters seems to think archery is god's gift to conservation and sportsmanship afield. Hardly.
 
CurtisWalker said:
Here is how I feel on why ducks/pheasants so forth are different. And I'm sure most will respect that because it does provide much support..

Say in an area of 707 square inches you put 150 bbs. Now suppose a duck has a ventral dorsal area of 360 square inches(way over actual size) you are going to get around 50 bbs into that duck and bbs around it. Since we set up for ducks to be landing towards us I chose the ventral side. Now as the duck is landing yes your margin of error decreases however the bbs or becoming more compact as the target increases. Causing more bbs to hit a vital zone. Didn't do the math on speed due that fact..


Here is why coyotes, deer, and other large game are in the same category. Yes some people can make an ethical running shot. But I bet 95+% of the people who say or think they can can't.

Now take a deer, one slug. Maybe an inch in diameter. The vitals of a deer lets say are 78.5 square inches while the surface area on one side is roughly 630.75 square inches when the deer is broadside. 12.5% of that deer is vitals. Now placing a slug on a running deer you have 10 inches horizontally to hit the vitals. A deer moves 15 mph while running(not even full speed) that is about 264 inches per second. If a slug has a 1760 fps then it takes 0.05 seconds to reach the deer at 30 yards. Now say that deer is running still 264 ips that deer will move 13.5 inches by the time the slug reaches the deer. You only have an inch of marginal error. So if you are aiming for the vitals you'll hit the back legs. Pretty much a pull and pray method to hit a deer on the run.


And bowtech I don't separate whitetail from other large game or does from bucks. They all deserve the quickest kill we can provide. Also I enjoy hunting mature whitetails doe or buck. More enjoyable in my eyes. Also like I've stated before I believe it to be easier to do because the fact I know they have lived a longer life and the younger ones can grow..(think about how people act at a kids funeral compared to an elderly persons).. I don't press my opinions on others in fact I have taken people out this year and said shoot whatever deer makes you happy. I would never call a person off a shot when I knew they are going to cherish that deer just as much as I would if it made it another year. I find does to be just as much of a trophy as a big buck, that's why I take harvest photos with them too. I think pushing is fine when done safe, legally, and ethically. However I don't think there should be party hunting due to the very reason the outfitter in the first post was busted. It's abused. Buy and fill your own tags. Don't have 99 year old grandma doe who can't walk with out a walker buy a tag so you can go fill it.. Party hunting is the main reason shotgunners get the bad rep. People abuse it. Take it away and you'll most likely be left with the shotgun groups that do the things legally, safely, and ethically. My rant is done.
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CW. You usually have respectable posts but your ignorance and ARROGANCE in the last few post is so astounding I will not give a lengthy reply because I know it will fall on deaf ears. I will however point out that they are both ignorant and arrogant. Hunters need to respect each other that legally take game. There are many moral ways to accomplish this. Continue to bash each other and you will hurt our sport and also eventually ruin a good web site. There used to be another good Iowa site that fell victim to this same thing.
 
2-bucks said:
CW. You usually have respectable posts but your ignorance and ARROGANCE in the last few post is so astounding I will not give a lengthy reply because I know it will fall on deaf ears. I will however point out that they are both ignorant and arrogant. Hunters need to respect each other that legally take game. There are many moral ways to accomplish this. Continue to bash each other and you will hurt our sport and also eventually ruin a good web site. There used to be another good Iowa site that fell victim to this same thing.
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I have not stated anything but rather asked about how the pushers recover an animal. As I stated in my posts I have nothing against the hunters that do it safely, legally, and ethically. It's the people that abuse the system and blast at everything that moves that are the problem when it comes to the debates between shot gunners and bowhunters. Every one has a way of hunting and their own definition of a trophy. And I respect that, animals deserve the respect also when we all go out to harvest them we need to be confident with a shot, know what's behind the target, know how are gun shoots,..so forth. That's why we practice taking shots at different angles, sight in our rifles,guns/bows every year. Yes things go wrong sometimes and we wound a deer, I know I have. But the practice we put in is to minimize the chances of wounding an animal.

We as hunters are the countries biggest conservational group and do need to stick together.
 
To me its more about safety and what the non hunter Itakes from what they see. Kid in Minnesota was killed in the fog last weekend with a muzloader. Every year bowhunters fall from there tree and get hurt and die. If you tell me that most guys know where shots 3,4,5+ are going if they miss I will call you a liar to your face. Gun season is necessary or we would be overrun with deer and EHD would run rampant like on all these unfenced game farms. At least most bow hunters that are foolish hurt themselves. Maybe a 3 shot limit like waterfowl would be a good start. I don't think in the end most people fully grasp how dangerous that gun they are holding is. And they garner more negative pub because every shot is heard loud and clear and the trucks with cans around them and piled in them are in plain view, along with the pile of dead deer. Some of every group are bad. Its what is seen out in the open that people remember. We will always disagree but its the outsiders that have the money and the power to try to shut it down. In a time when people are edgy about guns maybe instead of getting pissed think about the valid points and make sure we all do what we can to stop foolishness and help the overall reputaion of our pastime.
 
People against hunting already have their minds made up just like people against guns. Now you are saying we should cater to those people?! If shotgun hunting is soooo dangerous where are all the accidents taking place? I understand there are a few but there are accidents during every season. If what you are saying is true about not knowing where the 3rd, 4th, and 5th shots are going there should be bodies laying everywhere throughout the state. Call me a liar but I know where my slug is going to end up every time I make the decision to pull the trigger. Shotgun season is not for everyone. It takes SKILL to hit a moving target and be aware of your surroundings. Thankfully for those without that skill, there is muzzy season.
 
I am convinced I need to join PETA after reading this thread. Deer hunting is just too unethical...
 
Liv4Rut said:
I am convinced I need to join PETA after reading this thread. Deer hunting is just too unethical...
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I'm thinking about it. Those poor deer deserve to be killed with one shot rather than three and I'm sure peta would agree. I'm convinced some people are brain washed over deer. A couple post up someone was comparing killing an old deer or a young deer to going to a funeral for a child and a elderly person. I'm starting to wonder if some of you are hunting the same four legged creature I am? Maybe the deer around where I hunt just aren't as mystical. Idk different sub species maybe.
 
In the age of cell phones and animal rights nutjubs you dont think you should care???? A lawyer just got a chimp out of a zoo because he was sad. A dairy got shut down and all lost their jobs because someone took cell phone video of someone dragging a cow out of the mud with a chain. Must have been out of feather boa's. All it takes is some clown to video something that looks dramatic and get it on the iterweb 5 seconds later and its a problem. They have the money to make it a problem sooner or later. Also if my sons grow up and want to gun hunt i will say go for it and try to teach them the best i can The fact is to be proficient with a gun takes a TON of practice. I am glad all gun hunters on here are professional snipers but have you heard of a ricochet? Most do not take that time, me included.
 
Bowtech84 said:
People against hunting already have their minds made up just like people against guns. Now you are saying we should cater to those people?! If shotgun hunting is soooo dangerous where are all the accidents taking place? I understand there are a few but there are accidents during every season. If what you are saying is true about not knowing where the 3rd, 4th, and 5th shots are going there should be bodies laying everywhere throughout the state. Call me a liar but I know where my slug is going to end up every time I make the decision to pull the trigger. Shotgun season is not for everyone. It takes SKILL to hit a moving target and be aware of your surroundings. Thankfully for those without that skill, there is muzzy season.
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I will call malarkey, bet if we take a poll of all those that have heard a slug whip by or smack a tree or building a lot more have than have not. Hey, I bet they knew just where their slug was going to end up. One death hunting is to many.
 
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