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Tree Planting

I never have problems with persimmons getting girdled by rodents or browsed by deer. The only thing that seems to be an attractant from persimmons are the seeds. They can spread and take over crp/grass areas since many animals eat the fruits and plant the seeds for ya when they feel the "urge" :D
 
When I get time I will try to post more on this topic on the tree planting thread. We have tons of thick brushy areas and overgrown CRP on this farm which is excellent cover and bedding areas. Also, we have planted thousands and thousands of white spruce with close to 100% success rate, how did you guess dbltree??

They grow like weeds here, no site prep no nothing, just plant and forget them. I was suprised to hear that you have so much trouble with spruce in your area, but then again maybe not. I have hunted Iowa and only wish Wisconsin had the hunting season structure Iowa does to produce the great numbers of mature bucks in your state! I wish we had that problem with so many big bucks rubbing all our trees! We actuallly have more trouble with red cedar that grows so well for you, they love to browse the red cedar. Don't they browse the heck out of it there?

I guess it doesnt' help that we have a lot of deer winter on our area with the food plots and great cover, they really browse the small red cedars to death. I will try to get more pictures sometime (maybe for the tree planting thread too), but I will send you one that I already have that shows the area I was talking about frost seeding CIR this winter. It is surrounded on 3 sides by white spruce (which you can see in the picture) with thick brush growing in between. I posted this earlier last fall, but you can see the rape coming up in that photo which I drop seeded after spraying the field with glyphosate. The rape go anywhere from four inches to over knee high by late fall and the deer have been pounding it. They should have it pretty well cleaned up in another month or two and then I could frost seed the CIR if I decide to do that. On the fourth side you will see an elelctric fence. I will try to post this on the tree planting thread too, with more pictures and more information.

I know someone recently asked about electric fencing for keeping deer out of tree plantings on that thread. We have 8.1 acres enclosed with a 8 strand high tensile 7,000+ volt electric fence. We have 2500+ white cedars within the enclosure. It keeps 90% of the deer out, so hopefully in 10 years or so when the cedar are big enough we can take the fence down and let the deer enjoy them! The absolutely love white cedar esp. from late fall through early spring for browse and it makes great cover and bedding too! If you have any deer at all, you must somehow keep them off or no chance they will survive.

Anyway, would it be better to plant this field with CIR or more trees, shrubbs, etc. I want the best bedding area we can have. Switchgrass or trees/shrubs?

thanks

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I wanted to address this question in this thread as well as the switch thread because the two are intertwined.

I do prefer brushy, shrubby cover along with conifers for bedding and the larger the area the more likely it is to hold mature animals.

Where we already have timber, then utilizing hinge cutting creates better bedding within the timber but what to do with open land?

I use NWSG's where I have income producing land and I want to convert that ground from coolseasons that are all but useless to a variety of NWSG. This creates diversity and certainly better bedding then coolseasons.

Mature bucks are loners and they are most likely to bed in NWSG stands but the bulk of the deer are likely to bed in brush or timber. This means a diverse combination of NWSG stands, brush and timber is the best bet for most landowners.

If one has income producing lands, converting them to trees means a loss of income that is permanent and for most that is not a plausible scenario. That being said I have converted some of my CRP to tree plantings in either 10-15 year programs, aware that when the contract ends there is no renewing it.

Looking at the picture above, the tree plantings are still young and pretty open but in time they will fill in and make great habitat. I probably would have included shrubs in those plantings to fill in the open areas and that is something that could still be done.

In the mean time I think I would plant the field to switch or a native mix to give you a well rounded diverse habitat.

If deer eat your red cedars they are something different then the ones that grow here! I wonder if even a starving deer would eat that nasty stuff! White cedar is of course a very different story...;)
 
quote: "If deer eat your red cedars they are something different then the ones that grow here! I wonder if even a starving deer would eat that nasty stuff!"

Nope, same tree dbltree, unless there's something different about the species in your area, but in your pictures they look exactly the same, except there's no sign of browsing on them. I will try to get some pictures soon. Besides being a "whitetail fanatic" I'm also a habitat fanatic and know my trees, shrubs, plants very well. I'm really surprised they don't browse the heck out of them in your area. I've seen 5 bucks at one time under one big red cedar. I've seen lots of deer stand on their hind legs to reach higher branches to browse on. Even in northeast Iowa and northwest Illlinois where I have hunted for 8 years, deer love to browse the red cedar during winter. I wonder if it's just a matter of being that far south that deer don't browse them or what? It's mainly during December-March, but I've seen them browse them here in November before it gets really cold and snowy and there's plenty of alfalfa, corn, soybeans, around, so they aren't short of food at all. It's also different that bucks will rub the spruce in your area so much but not the red cedar. Seems like they rub the red cedar here more than the spruce! I wish every spruce we had on this property was a red cedar instead because they are such an attractant here. The spruce do get super thick though. It might be hard to tell, but the ones in the picture are 11 years old and 12 to 18 feet tall. We have some that are 15 to 22 years old and all grown together very thick! Another thing that surprised me too was that you said goldenrod seems worthless in your area, but the deer here really seem to like that stuff too. They travel through, bed in it, and really like to browse the leaves when they are brown from Nov. till end of March. I've seen deer eat brown goldenrod leaves countless times. I'm not saying go out and plant goldenrod, but at least deer and other wildlife use goldenrod fields here, while cool season grasses are good for nothing but mice. Weird how much different deer can be from one area to another! Many people also believe that deer won't touch red oak acorns when there are white oak acorns available. Yes, deer usually like white oak acorns much better than reds, but I have watched deer in October walk through white oak acorns to get to red oaks and eat the red oak acorns instead, with white oak acorns just yards away. I'm not trying to disagree with anyone here, but those are just some differences that I have noticed compared to what others have said.

thanks for posting the pictures dbltree, I will hopefully have more for you soon.
 
dbltree said:
Mature bucks are loners and they are most likely to bed in NWSG stands but the bulk of the deer are likely to bed in brush or timber. This means a diverse combination of NWSG stands, brush and timber is the best bet for most landowners.
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My thoughts exactly, for instance, a 40 acres field will be far more attractive if 20 acres is in NWSG's and forbes and 20 acres of wildlife friendly shrubs. Diversity is the key to all wildlife and some of everything is best. :way:

As for the red cedars, I have never noticed them browsed in my area, but deer seem to have regional preferences, maybe with the deeper snow in your area, that has caused the deer to get a taste for red cedars since that maybe all they have to eat at times.
 
Weird how much different deer can be from one area to another!
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I guess! We have red cedars everywhere, they are actually very invasive and will quickly take over a field that isn't kept mowed or burned.

They don't eat them and very rarely rub them enough to kill them.

Interesting stuff! :)
 
dbltree and letemgrow (or anyone else who has experience with this, please add your thoughts), I have a question for you at the end of this, but first I need to explaing our situation:

The spruce in the previous picture are about 11 years old and mostly 12-15 feet tall and the deer travel and bed in them quite a bit. The trees are big enough that the deer can easily disapper in them and in most places if you are standing in the trees you can't see very far but there is still space to walk and forbes and brush growing between the trees. Then we have some areas where the spruce are 16 to 18 years old and the lower branches are still alive and touching and growing into one another pretty much down to ground level. You can't see 10 feet in most parts and it's basically a monoculture in most areas with little or no open spaces between them. It seems like the deer hardly travel through or bed in these areas. They travel around or bed on the outer edges some, but don't seem to use the interior much. Then we have a stand of 22 year old spruce where the lower branches up to about 4 feet or so have started to die off and the branches from there on up are still alive and growing into one another. With the lower brances near the ground starting to die off it gives a person or deer more room to move around underneath and between the trees. When sitting on the ground in this area you can see a little farther than in the 16 year old spruce because some of the lower branches have died off but the spruce still hold tight to the branches after they die, much like red cedar. But when you stand up you can't see far at all because the branches are still alive from about 4 feet and up. The deer seem to use these more than the 16 year old solid stand.

Have you noticed that deer use conifers less if it is a large area with a very thick stand with the lower branches of adjacent trees touching one another? It seems that they use conifers more if they are either spread out so there is space and other vegetation growing in between individual trees OR the trees are growing thick in SMALL patches of 5 to 10 trees with open space between other nearby patches of say 5-10 trees. My big question is, in our 16 year old spruce that are very thick, basically a monoculture where they don't seem to use it much, should we thin some of the trees and if so should we do it so the trees that are left are growing inidividually with space between other trees or should we leave 5-10 trees in small patches and clear patches of trees throughout the overall area to leave patches of 5-10 trees with open areas in between other patches of 5-10 trees? Any thoughts and advice would be appreciated. thanks
 
Our red cedars can end up the same way, and sometimes thinning them is the best option, because as you have noticed they'll use them more if they have some grass and open areas around them.

The only place I like them a little closer is a long the edge for a screen, but otherwise a thinner stand is far more attractive to whitetails!:way:
 
I have noticed deer use the cedars more if they are more openly spaced with NWSG around the cedars. On a south facing slope in the wintertime, this is a deadly combo to hold deer since it will be a lot warmer there through the days. A north facing slope of cedars is like an ice box in the wintertime and I would cut most of them out in that scenario.
 
Thanks guys. So what would you recommend? Thin the stands to leave individual trees spaced out with open areas between or leave patches of about 5 trees with open areas between the patches?

quote: "A north facing slope of cedars is like an ice box in the wintertime and I would cut most of them out in that scenario."

I have noticed the same thing on north facing slopes with thick conifers.
 
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I would do both, leave a few patches and have some single cedars. I would leave it so 10 yards or so is all the farther you can see if it was my place.
 
whitetail fanatic said:
Earlier it was mentioned that the leaves of persimmon seedlings are poisonous so deer usually don't eat them. Does that change as the tree matures or do deer usually never browse them even when the trees are older?......... My guess is that when you plant persimmons from seed some of the trees will be male and some female, it's just varies from one see to the next right? letemgrow, how old are the oldest persimmon trees that you have started from seed and are any of them fruiting yet? Do they grow fast? How many years from seed before they produce fruit?

thanks!
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Persimmon poisioning can occur when ruminants consume fresh new shoots growing off a cut stump....when these shoots are less than 6" tall is the critical poisonous stage. My cousin lost a few heifers to this a few years ago. Haven't noticed deer or cattle browsing the leaves. Dunno the specific poison.

How fast they grow will depend on the soil, but the neat thing about persimmon is they are tolerant of a wide variety of soils and drought.... excepting very poor, rocky, thin topsoil uplands where sumac would be a more suitable choice. Speaking about native persimmon.....seedlings should reach 5' tall within 3 yrs and your prolly looking at < 10 to first fruit. Resprouts from untreated cut stumps however, can grow 4-5' in one growing season.....with fruit production occuring again witin 5 yr. The difference is degree of rot establishment. There will be male, female, and hermaphroditic trees. Be farewarned that persimmon can be highly invasive in pastures...be prepared to manage them in the future BEFORE they take over! :D

Inre red cedar....have only noticed one eastern red cedar in 20 yr which was browsed...poor upland location and during hard mast failure....uncommon to see that in our area. ERC with no limbs below 3' are prime rub candidates. Scattered Xmas tree like ERC serve as bedding backdrops esp in areas with thigh to waist high broomshedge.....east facing slopes (morning sun) are common locations to find these beds. Try removing some lower limbs on trees near trails and see if that encourages rubbing. Supposedly the female tree has the berries....birds seem to do a decent job of scarifing and distributing the seed. EEasy buggers to kill if need be! ;)

Merry Cristmas to all!
 
For years I've read and heard about persimmon fruits being an awesome attractant to deer, as well as turkey and pheasants. I never really thought much about planting them until now, choosing to plant apple trees instead. It seems like persimmons would be an excellent tree to plant, especially since it soulds like deer, rabbits, or mice don't bother them. As much as the wildlife love the fruits, I think it would be great if we could just plant the seedlings/small trees and not have to put wire barriers around to keep mice, rabbits, and deer from killing them. I guess I'm wondering why there hasn't been more written about persimmons on this thread and the apple/pear tree thread? Is there something about persimmons that I haven't heard about that keeps people from planting them for deer and other wildlife and make apple trees so much more popular?
 
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whitetail fanatic said:
I guess I'm wondering why there hasn't been more written about persimmons on this thread and the apple/pear tree thread? Is there something about persimmons that I haven't heard about that keeps people from planting them for deer and other wildlife and make apple trees so much more popular?
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I think it is because apple trees cover the entire US basically. I know of only one persimmon patch in my County, but if I go 2-3 hours south they are all over the place. More people have never been exposed to them and neither did I until I went to college and saw them first hand. :way:
 
Below are some closer up pictures of some of our 11 year old white spruce that you could see in a previous posting. From a distance they don't look like they provide much cover, but when you stand amongst them you can only see about 25 to 30 yards in most places. You can also see some of the brush that is starting to grow up between them and the deer really seem to like this mixture with enough space between the conifers for forbs, grasses, and brush to grow.

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I took the next pictures while standing in some of our spruce that are about 16-18 years old. (The date on the next two pictures is wrong, it was 12-24-09 not 1-1-07 like it says, somehow it got changed in the camera) You can only see about 10 feet in any direction while standing amongst them and there isn't really anything else growing between the spruce. Here is where I think we will thin some out because the deer seem to like it better when there is enough space between the conifers to allow grass, weeds, or brush to grow. Scattered small patches of about 5 trees planted this close together seem to be OK, but over large areas, conifers planted this close does not seem to be as attractive to deer. I think we will leave some patches of about 5 spruces, and leave some single spruces with open areas between them to create a better mix of habitat than one solid stand like this provides.

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We also have some 22 year old white spruce planted as thick as the 16-18 year old spruce, but the deer seem to use them more because some of the branches on the lower 4 feet of the trunk have died but they still hang tight to the tree. This makes it easier for deer to move around underneath the thick spruce, whereas in the 16-18 year old spruce they have to plow their way through the live horizontal branches of the spruce, which they don't seem to do very much.

Next is a red cedar showing how the deer in our area like to browse the foliage. There's a white spruce gowing next to it. I have noticed quite a bit of browsing on red cedar in NE Iowa and NW Illinois too, but apparently the deer must lose their "taste" for red cedar as you go south from here:

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Red cedars this small have a hard time surviving in our area unless (1) they are in an area with hundreds or thousands of young red cedars growing, (2) if they are in an area with lower deer numbers, or (3) in areas where deer don't spend much time during the winter months. You can see how much this young red cedar has been browsed over:

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Deer in our area also seem to rub red cedar more than the white spruce. Here is one that was rubbed years ago, but kept growing from a "side shoot" and looks like it will survive.

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The next two red cedars were killed by bucks rubbing. There are thousands of white spruce around and they hardly touch any of them, but they love to pick on our red cedars. This one was killed after a buck "girdled" it by rubbing a year ago:

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This red cedar was totally trashed:

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Thanks again dbltree for posting my pictures!
 
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I have been told in the early days before wormers came along people would feed some cedar branches to their livestock to help rid them of parasites. Great pics and interesting.
 
I checked on my acorn "stash" in the fridge a few weeks back and noticed one bag had some mold starting so I got a big bowl out and cleaned them all. I then repackaged them in in fresh peat moss with a little less water added and they seem to be doing fine so far.

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Amazing the root that starts even in cold storage on the white oak acorns!

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and what a difference between these huge red oak acorns and the smaller chinkapins!

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I went thru all the packages icluding the ones I purchased from Oikos Tree Crops and just re-packed them in fresh peat moss just to be certain but most looked fine.

I think the amount of water added has a great deal to do with mold problems. Some folks poke holes in the ziploc bags and others just use brown paper sacks but other then the one bag mine seem to be doing fine sealed in ziplocs in barely damp peat moss.

Just something to be cautious of and check on them every now and then.

My wife has tolerated me confiscating a drawer in the fridge but i'm still uncertain of her reaction to me starting dozens of acorns in post in fron of the living room window in March...:p:D
 
Wow...lots of neat things since I last visited!

Fanatic...those pics look awsome! Just wondering if you have problems with spruce beetles? We used to fish in upper mannitoba and the local folk absolutely hated those bugs...they'd stop mid-conversation to run 10 yds and stomp a spruce beetle and always uttered "I hate those things!" Comical to watch...the bugs look alot like the various elongated blister beetles (common in alfalfa) except have longer antennae....lil devils do have a nasty bite.

The common or American persimmon is worth a shot to establish...how far north they will grow I dunno. Deer will rub the saplings but if the roots are well established then the tree comes back 'guns a blazin'....one can always plant enough to overcome rubbing damage. In fact, I kinda chew on my cousin if he runs over a persimmon with the tractor..just harder for me to kill down the road. As far as management....the biggest things to avoid are: letting a stand get too thick and minimizing spread. Thinning is best done by cutting and leaving a 2-4" stump in mid-June and treating immediately with Rem/diesel.....small saplings (from dispersed seed) can be treated with the same and at the same time but using basal bark application. Herbicide efficacy is lowered during drought. Persimmon are the last tree specie on our place to leaf out in spring. Suppose this feature minimizes frost damage during pollination...prolly why we have fruit about every year. Normally deer hit them first in the fall, but with abundant hardmast this yr they hit them in Dec...one could literally 'walk on persimmons' in Oct.

LC...any particular recipe for preserving acorns in peat? I picked up a bunch of live oak acorns in Austin on our visit for direct seeding. Just put them in the garage in a plastic bag for now. Some had begun to shoot a root. That area was hit hard by drought so about the only place to find the acorns was in irrigated flower beds around the motel....those trees were loaded and not hard to pick! :way:
 
With this weather it makes me wish I planted even more % of cedars or more of them period. Gotta be one of my favorite trees for deer/wildlife.
QUESTION- have any of you gathered the blue seed from the cedar and tried planting them? I have some cedars that hold the blue seed LATE and I was going to get them by the bucket and just throw them around where I want more - small amount of work of course.
Do you think the seed needs to stratify by being digested by a bird or something (stomach acids to break seed coat) OR anything needed for stratification OR do you feel I am safe to just grab and chuck them around? Any other suggestions?

*even thought about trying it with seed from hedge apples/osage orange because of its thick nature (not as good as cedar) and late season food. I'll have to experiement on how to get seed from those. Those trees grow everywhere like weeds, even all over in thick brome. seems like easy to establish.

WF- man, those pics are AWESOME! I wish I could grow spruce or pines here- I have to basically make a prison around them or they just get destryoed instantly. I have some spruce I fenced in BUT so much work. What a nice situation and habititat you have, great stuff!
 
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