SWBUCKHNTR
Member
Thanks always a big help I appreciate every bit.
Thanks always a big help I appreciate every bit.
Dbltree,
I'm going to expand a plot for next year since the deer ate my rye mix to the dirt. I want to get something going in this new plot this spring to begin improving the soil. I think I remember reading in one of your threads that you prefer oats and some kind of annual clover for new spring plots. However I can't seem to find it anywhere now. How much should I plant and which clover is best for a hilltop pipeline right of way that is compacted from being driven on? Thanks in advance.
Doug
I'm going to expand a plot for next year since the deer ate my rye mix to the dirt. I want to get something going in this new plot this spring to begin improving the soil. I think I remember reading in one of your threads that you prefer oats and some kind of annual clover for new spring plots. However I can't seem to find it anywhere now. How much should I plant and which clover is best for a hilltop pipeline right of way that is compacted from being driven on? Thanks in advance.
Doug
dbltree
Super Moderator
I plant oats and any annual clover which might include berseem, crimson or arrowleaf clovers. Yo may find them at your local co-op or you can order from outside sources and ship seed to your door.
Clover Seed
Plant roughly 60#'s or 2 bushel of oats along with the 8-12 berseem clover or 10-15 crimson clover, you can clip the oats off mid summer or allow them to mature and mow/shred them before tilling them under for the rye mix and end up with some free oat seed...:way:
dbltree
Super Moderator
Thanks friend...Happy New Year :way:
dbltree
Super Moderator
January 1, 2011
Forage peas and forage radish
The winter rye, oats, forage peas, forage radish, red clover mix is still being grazed hard although repeated nights in the single digits has started to kill out the oats.
Despite the fact I repeatedly focus on the fact this is a mix and how each plant in the mix serves a purpose, people often leave out the important elements such as peas and radish plants. Forage peas, be it Austrian Winter Peas or forage peas like 4010 peas are the candy in the mix that makes it irresistible to whitetails and helps attract and hold deer on our property.
The peas have all been grazed hard and I had to really search for the only surviving remnants
Fall planted peas that are not grazed can easily be a foot or more high but as you can see these are barely and inch or two high.
Peas are tender succulent and tasty morsels that whitetails cannot resist and help us compete against neighboring crop fields
Peas are not unlike baby soybeans that we see whitetails feeding in during late spring early summer months but the difference is that peas are very cold hardy and often if not eaten to the dirt will survive the winter under a blanket of snow.
The Groundhog Forage Radish is another "candy plant" that deer cannot resist and in every field the GHFR plants are grazed to the dirt
and eventually they will eat the remaining roots as well
I have nearly 20 feeding areas on 8 farms that have the rye/oats/peas/radish/red clover mix planted in them in an area that covers two counties and each of them has been grazed to the ground. Talk is cheap of course and I never expect anyone to believe in the effectiveness of this mix without solid, consistent and undeniable pictorial proof...not from one day, one week or one month but from the time it comes up in September until I till it under for brassicas next summer....
The cam monitoring this field had over 4000+ pics in 30 days...common on any fields I plant and certainly nothing extraordinary
Every day regardless of the weather
they graze like cattle in the rye mix
and in this field have nothing left but the rye at this point
The red clover will take off in the spring to continue feeding deer until tilled under for a rotation to brassicas.
Whitetails that have food sources in one central feeding area become adapted to it if they have it year around
and that's what keeps the big boys hanging around
Some recent questions...
Absolutely! Always seed the clovers in the fall if you can because that insures they are already established and will grow rapidly in the spring but if you forgot or didn't think to add clovers this fall you can easily and effectively frost seed white, red or alsike clovers into the rye in March (when ground is freezing at night and thawing during the day...mid to late march in my area)
Clover seeds will germinate earlier then common warm season annual weeds and long before rye has developed allelopathic chemicals that inhibit small weed seeds from germinating.
You bet! The fall planted radish plants will first...be eaten to the dirt and then any root that is left will quickly decompose by mid to late winter and 4-6 months will have passed before planting the next brassicas, more then enough time to break any disease/pest cycles.
Oats and annual clovers like berseem, crimson and arrowleaf are great cover crops that feed deer all spring and summer and then provide biomass and nitrogen when tilled under for brassicas in July or the rye mix in late August.
A summary of what I plant is listed below....
Forage peas and forage radish
The winter rye, oats, forage peas, forage radish, red clover mix is still being grazed hard although repeated nights in the single digits has started to kill out the oats.
Despite the fact I repeatedly focus on the fact this is a mix and how each plant in the mix serves a purpose, people often leave out the important elements such as peas and radish plants. Forage peas, be it Austrian Winter Peas or forage peas like 4010 peas are the candy in the mix that makes it irresistible to whitetails and helps attract and hold deer on our property.
The peas have all been grazed hard and I had to really search for the only surviving remnants
Fall planted peas that are not grazed can easily be a foot or more high but as you can see these are barely and inch or two high.
Peas are tender succulent and tasty morsels that whitetails cannot resist and help us compete against neighboring crop fields
Peas are not unlike baby soybeans that we see whitetails feeding in during late spring early summer months but the difference is that peas are very cold hardy and often if not eaten to the dirt will survive the winter under a blanket of snow.
The Groundhog Forage Radish is another "candy plant" that deer cannot resist and in every field the GHFR plants are grazed to the dirt
and eventually they will eat the remaining roots as well
I have nearly 20 feeding areas on 8 farms that have the rye/oats/peas/radish/red clover mix planted in them in an area that covers two counties and each of them has been grazed to the ground. Talk is cheap of course and I never expect anyone to believe in the effectiveness of this mix without solid, consistent and undeniable pictorial proof...not from one day, one week or one month but from the time it comes up in September until I till it under for brassicas next summer....
The cam monitoring this field had over 4000+ pics in 30 days...common on any fields I plant and certainly nothing extraordinary
Every day regardless of the weather
they graze like cattle in the rye mix
and in this field have nothing left but the rye at this point
The red clover will take off in the spring to continue feeding deer until tilled under for a rotation to brassicas.
Whitetails that have food sources in one central feeding area become adapted to it if they have it year around
and that's what keeps the big boys hanging around
Some recent questions...
Absolutely! Always seed the clovers in the fall if you can because that insures they are already established and will grow rapidly in the spring but if you forgot or didn't think to add clovers this fall you can easily and effectively frost seed white, red or alsike clovers into the rye in March (when ground is freezing at night and thawing during the day...mid to late march in my area)
Clover seeds will germinate earlier then common warm season annual weeds and long before rye has developed allelopathic chemicals that inhibit small weed seeds from germinating.
You bet! The fall planted radish plants will first...be eaten to the dirt and then any root that is left will quickly decompose by mid to late winter and 4-6 months will have passed before planting the next brassicas, more then enough time to break any disease/pest cycles.
Oats and annual clovers like berseem, crimson and arrowleaf are great cover crops that feed deer all spring and summer and then provide biomass and nitrogen when tilled under for brassicas in July or the rye mix in late August.
A summary of what I plant is listed below....
SWBUCKHNTR
Member
It is like you read my mind. I am sitting here today going through what to plant next year and when to plant it and at what rates. I have an 11 acre field that is gonna be my hotspot from now on. I was trying to decide how to break it down and then you post this:way:. This is what I am thinking, three of the four outside edges planted into switch about 3 acres of the field. The next area will be 3 acres of corn. Followed by a break of egyptian wheat with 3 more acres of beans "inside" the ew screen. That leaves an acre for brassicas and an acre for rye mix and a little border of clover around the beans, brassicas, and rye. The field is a perfect square so I figure with the corn and then the ew screen shaped like this [ it will really keep that pesky neighbor to my west from being able to shoot into my field.
dbltree
Super Moderator
Sounds like a great plan SWBUCKHNTR...keep us posted this next year...:way:
I always enjoy getting pictures from other landowners and these were sent in from a friend in South Dakota (SoDakarcher) where he planted the cereal grain mix on his 180 acre farm there.
Pretty country and lot's of cover in the native warm season grass!
The rye mix received only a 1/4" of rain after planting
so while it could have done better, it's not to shabby considering the lack of rain!
This coming year he plans to sub-divide the plots and include white clover and brassica plantings within the same plot
The winter rye in the mix is still green and he estimates 20-30 deer are using his feeding areas
all of which are literally torn up and covered with deer scat
This is Bryan's first year at planting food for whitetails and is delighted with the results of the rye mix which is the most dependable and easy mix to start with and then one can easily move forward into the crop rotation where white clover, brassicas and the rye mix are all grown in strips or blocks within the same field.
This is the mixes that I encourage landowners to plant in one centralized feeding area per 80-120 acres that will allow you to feed deer year around and thereby adapt them to always feeding there and in turn always living on your property. You must of course have excellent bedding cover in the form of timber and/or NWSG or food sources may go unnoticed...
For great examples of how to lay out a feeding area and incorporate ALL the food sources into one feeding area, read thru the Getting Started thread for detailed aerial layouts.
Getting Started
I always enjoy getting pictures from other landowners and these were sent in from a friend in South Dakota (SoDakarcher) where he planted the cereal grain mix on his 180 acre farm there.
Pretty country and lot's of cover in the native warm season grass!
The rye mix received only a 1/4" of rain after planting
so while it could have done better, it's not to shabby considering the lack of rain!
This coming year he plans to sub-divide the plots and include white clover and brassica plantings within the same plot
The winter rye in the mix is still green and he estimates 20-30 deer are using his feeding areas
all of which are literally torn up and covered with deer scat
This is Bryan's first year at planting food for whitetails and is delighted with the results of the rye mix which is the most dependable and easy mix to start with and then one can easily move forward into the crop rotation where white clover, brassicas and the rye mix are all grown in strips or blocks within the same field.
This is the mixes that I encourage landowners to plant in one centralized feeding area per 80-120 acres that will allow you to feed deer year around and thereby adapt them to always feeding there and in turn always living on your property. You must of course have excellent bedding cover in the form of timber and/or NWSG or food sources may go unnoticed...
For great examples of how to lay out a feeding area and incorporate ALL the food sources into one feeding area, read thru the Getting Started thread for detailed aerial layouts.
Getting Started
dbltree
Super Moderator
If the field has been previously fertilized and limed (as if for brassicas the following year)...no...however if this is a first time virgin plot then it's a great time to get P&K and lime tilled in at planting.
Mid April to mid May is most of the Midwest is proper planting time for oats and annual clovers
dbltree
Super Moderator
Plant as noted below...lower rates for low deer density but higher rates for high deer numbers...
dbltree
Super Moderator
January 8th, 2012
When I am asked to start a new feeding area from scratch where I am dealing with sod (such as that found in a CRP field) I always start with the winter rye combination mix. The mix works great to establish white clover around the perimeter, to break down the sod and to adapt deer to feeding somewhere they have never fed before. Never once has it let me down on any counts....even when it has to compete with corn a hundred yards away....
Cams verify use night....
and day
The tender succulent winter rye and oats is irresistible to whitetails
and the peas and radish are impossible to pass up
The rye keeps growing when temps are above 34 degrees and keeps them fed all winter long
and the red clover in the mix keeps them fed all spring and summer
This coming summer we will expand the feeding area (it's grazed to the dirt now) and incorporate the brassica mix into half to provide a combination of year around food sources that will adapt deer to coming to one central feeding area. It will be screened with Egyptian Wheat to make them even more comfortable during daylight hours.
When I am asked to start a new feeding area from scratch where I am dealing with sod (such as that found in a CRP field) I always start with the winter rye combination mix. The mix works great to establish white clover around the perimeter, to break down the sod and to adapt deer to feeding somewhere they have never fed before. Never once has it let me down on any counts....even when it has to compete with corn a hundred yards away....
Cams verify use night....
and day
The tender succulent winter rye and oats is irresistible to whitetails
and the peas and radish are impossible to pass up
The rye keeps growing when temps are above 34 degrees and keeps them fed all winter long
and the red clover in the mix keeps them fed all spring and summer
This coming summer we will expand the feeding area (it's grazed to the dirt now) and incorporate the brassica mix into half to provide a combination of year around food sources that will adapt deer to coming to one central feeding area. It will be screened with Egyptian Wheat to make them even more comfortable during daylight hours.
dbltree
Super Moderator
Hairy Vetch
I use red clover with my fall winter rye/oats/peas/radish mix to provide a high quality source of spring and summer feed while at the same time producing up to 2 1/2 tons of organic matter and as much as 130#'s of nitrogen per acre. Clover however does not do well on light, sandy dry soils so one option where improving poor soils is imperative is adding hairy vetch.
Hairy vetch is not the most attractive forage but forage nonetheless and far better then no cover crop at all. It far exceeds the value of a non-legume like buckwheat at all levels yet is rarely used simply because few people are aware of it's value as a soil builder. Unlike clovers hairy vetch will grow on poor sandy soils and like clovers can produce a significant amount of nitrogen that can be utilized by the next crop (such as brassicas)
While vetch can improve soil tilth it is not as adept at building organic matter because it breaks down quickly, however winter rye (which also grows well on sand) can feed deer all fall, winter and early spring...AND provide long lasting organic matter.
A great combination on poor soils that will not grow red clover might be winter rye, crimson clover and hairy vetch (such as in this picture) a combination that also naturally suppresses weeds.
There other positives about utilizing hairy vetch
Keep in mind that if you can grow clovers that rec clover is far more palatable and attractive to whitetails then hairy vetch so in most cases would be the superior option but hairy vetch is an excellent cover crop where clovers do not do well.
Chickling vetch is very useful for a quick spring planted cover crop and can be planted with oats and either berseem or crimson clover in the spring.
This is a mix that can follow dead brassicas to provide summer forage until tilled under for the rotation to the rye mix.
A common mistake is to leave your plot bare during the spring and summer months but "dirt plots" don't attract whitetails and cost you money because you could be utilizing a legume cover crop that can fix nitrogen, pull up sub soil nutrients, build up soil organic matter, suppress weeds AND...provide a source of spring and summer forage that helps adapt deer to feeding in one central feeding area....year around.
Some possible options listed below utilizing vetch rather then red clover on poor soils
Vetch seed
Clover seed
Effective Cover Cropping in the Midwest
I use red clover with my fall winter rye/oats/peas/radish mix to provide a high quality source of spring and summer feed while at the same time producing up to 2 1/2 tons of organic matter and as much as 130#'s of nitrogen per acre. Clover however does not do well on light, sandy dry soils so one option where improving poor soils is imperative is adding hairy vetch.
Hairy vetch is not the most attractive forage but forage nonetheless and far better then no cover crop at all. It far exceeds the value of a non-legume like buckwheat at all levels yet is rarely used simply because few people are aware of it's value as a soil builder. Unlike clovers hairy vetch will grow on poor sandy soils and like clovers can produce a significant amount of nitrogen that can be utilized by the next crop (such as brassicas)
While vetch can improve soil tilth it is not as adept at building organic matter because it breaks down quickly, however winter rye (which also grows well on sand) can feed deer all fall, winter and early spring...AND provide long lasting organic matter.
A great combination on poor soils that will not grow red clover might be winter rye, crimson clover and hairy vetch (such as in this picture) a combination that also naturally suppresses weeds.
There other positives about utilizing hairy vetch
Keep in mind that if you can grow clovers that rec clover is far more palatable and attractive to whitetails then hairy vetch so in most cases would be the superior option but hairy vetch is an excellent cover crop where clovers do not do well.
Chickling vetch is very useful for a quick spring planted cover crop and can be planted with oats and either berseem or crimson clover in the spring.
This is a mix that can follow dead brassicas to provide summer forage until tilled under for the rotation to the rye mix.
A common mistake is to leave your plot bare during the spring and summer months but "dirt plots" don't attract whitetails and cost you money because you could be utilizing a legume cover crop that can fix nitrogen, pull up sub soil nutrients, build up soil organic matter, suppress weeds AND...provide a source of spring and summer forage that helps adapt deer to feeding in one central feeding area....year around.
Some possible options listed below utilizing vetch rather then red clover on poor soils
Vetch seed
Clover seed
Effective Cover Cropping in the Midwest
SWBUCKHNTR
Member
Hey guys just wondering if any of you got much for snow? We have got pry 4-5 inches and it is still snowing. Just wondering if the rye mix gets covered up how well the deer dig for it? I am adding it to my plot next year just wondering how well it attracts them after snow?
dbltree
Super Moderator
They will dig thru a foot of snow if necessary assuming of course that they have good bedding close by. Pics below show them feeding in perhaps 2-4" of snow.
If the rye was not seeding to heavily (roughly 50#'s per acre) then as mentioned it can be left standing, but also can be clipped or sprayed with clethodim...lot's of options.
January 22nd, 2012
Snow and bitter cold temps have finally arrived here in SE Iowa but whitetails are still finding plenty to eat in the rye combination plantings in our centralized feeding areas.
The winter rye is still green as it was this fall and providing attractive high quality forage.
They scratch around for what is left of the Austrian Winter Peas and any remaining forage radish tops.
The red clover is the unseen component at this point but is waiting to spring to life and feed deer all summer until tilled under for a rotation to brassicas.
The deer just keep coming and by providing year around food sources....they don't go anywhere else!
They are already adapted to coming here and there is nothing that will change their daily plans
The common mistake is planting a "kill plot" rather then a year around feeding area
Where does one suppose they will go with no feed left?
and then people wonder why they are so hard to pattern each fall
Plant year around food sources in one central feeding area for every 80-120 acres, surround it with premium cover and whitetails will become very...predictable
I am a die hard archery hunter and not much for the firearms seasons but when the sun came out one evening I volunteered to take out a couple does on this farm.
Turns out the rye...is to die for!
I killed a couple and called it a night
Soon the rye will be the place to find sheds too and in the spring...fawns will be born in it and the cycle of adaption and predictable patterns will continue....
whitetail fanatic
Member
I planted 100# per acre rye with 12# per acre medium red clover, and never mowed or killed the rye and the clover did fantastic. I mowed the plots one time last summer, but by then the rye was fully mature and seeded out. The rye did not overcrowd the clover, even at 100# per acre. The only reason I mowed it was to get more fresh growth out of the clover because it was so tall and thick by mid July. Below I will copy what I posted from Paul's thread on the QDM forum, this was posted there on October 12, 2011.
I planted medium red clover with rye in late August 2010. Below and in the following posts are some pics from this past spring, the first on a frosty April 29th morning when the red clover only had a few inches of growth (although they were heavily browsing it or it would be taller. The next pics are on May 22 and by that time, it has a good amount of growth. The pics in the post after this one, the pics are from June 25, as the rye was seeding out and the clover was very tall and thick. Notice the heavy browsing on the clover. They were feeding heavily on it all spring and summer.
Frosty morning turkey hunt, April 29th
May 22nd
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