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i think i found a democrat to vote for

No, we are talking about killing innocents.

You didn't answer the question. I said there were innocent people being killed on death row. Are you ok with this?

I'm not ok with in innocent people being executed, for a crime they did not commit. But there are plenty of cut and dry cases where there is no question. Those need to be followed through. Colarodo movie shooter? Any questions on if he was guilty or not?

I think everyone here now realizes that I am very pro life. It is beyond me how anyone can look into their child's eyes, and say out loud, I support a woman who doesn't want you, to end you before you are born. The heart beat on a child is beating at 12 weeks. I guess I'm not really sure "when" life begins, but seems to be a living creature when it has a heart beat.

Sorry for being honest, I do not judge someone on their beliefs (I try not too), but this is a touchy subject for me, as in the last 4 years I've seen the pain and hardship that loved ones have gone through by not being able to bare a child, and lose a child before it is naturally born, to see these loved ones fall apart over it, only to hear stories about how a woman "has the right to a un-natural miscarriage".
 
I'm not ok with in innocent people being executed, for a crime they did not commit. But there are plenty of cut and dry cases where there is no question. Those need to be followed through. Colarodo movie shooter? Any questions on if he was guilty or not?
No question. Wack him.
I too am against abortion. This may be hard for some of you to understand but it is for that reason that I am a democrat. I support social services. I am willing to pay for healthcare for someone who can't afford it. I am also willing to do what I can to help people succeed. If that means allowing someone to keep their dignity while on welfare, well ,I'll do that too.
My point is that we need to look at why these things are happening and fix those things. I believe that when we do, we won't have abortions like we do now.
 
No question. Wack him.
I too am against abortion. This may be hard for some of you to understand but it is for that reason that I am a democrat. I support social services. I am willing to pay for healthcare for someone who can't afford it. I am also willing to do what I can to help people succeed. If that means allowing someone to keep their dignity while on welfare, well ,I'll do that too.
My point is that we need to look at why these things are happening and fix those things. I believe that when we do, we won't have abortions like we do now.

I gotta say, your an oxymoron. You seem to be a conservative democrat. :D
 
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Brian, I'm not sure looking into my child' s eyes and telling him that is a proper analogy as they were conceived by two who planned to love them and care for them so it is a moot point. Its a world full of unicorns and fairies where those unplanned pregnancies get the same shake.

I feel for your loved ones and their problems just like I feel for those affected by unwanted births. One could really go fishing and look for evidence on how those unwanted children affect the system in ways Conservatives are so against, such as welfare or healthcare.

I'm not saying I like abortion. I think it's ridiculous in today's world that unwanted pregnancies happen. Take a pill, put on a condom.

Anyways I don't judge people based on their beliefs, I don't have to try not to because I simply don't. I'm also used to being judged for my beliefs so I don't let that bother me.
 
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Beat me to it. I'm sorry but the estate or "death" tax is one of those wedge issues that I hear people citing all the time because they hear some blow hard, talking head spouting off about it with out knowing the facts. Like everyone is being held down by it. The current tax does not even kick in until 5 million.

Apparently those who think this haven't taken a close look at land prices lately. My in laws are working hard right to to find a way to save their 2000 acre farm when they die. Us kids will have to sell over half of it to pay the estate taxes. Also, we'll have to sell the livestock. To say they are livid about it is a massive understatement. Also the democrat appointed EPA is out of control!!!
 
Sorry, but I have no sympathy for anyone who has to pay taxes on anything they inherit over 5 million dollars.
Unfortunately KSQ2, this is the mind set your family is up against. Everyone has a dollar amount above what they have that is fair game to steal. Isn't stealing in the 10 commandments? I'm thinking #8.
 
Mike 311,

You're correct that some of the wealthy travel to the us. The majority are not wealthy and are content to wait a few weeks before beginning treatment for cancer or a hip replacement etc. I'm not wealthy and am grateful for what I have.
The long gun registry wasn't popular but it no longer exists. I don't know anyone personally who feels they are too strict. Yeah, I can't own a handgun but don't really see the need to, again, I don't know anyone ppersonally who feels otherwise.
Our game laws are a joke. I could have twenty walleye too many and may pay a couple hundred bucks. A 200" whitetail would cost me a grand or two. I'd like to know who thinks those are too steep, fish pigs and poachers that's who.
Some laws are too strict others not enough.
Taxes are high but they have to be, we have 35 million people and more land mass to worry about than you. It costs money.

I'd like to know what part of Canada the peoplel you speak of are from. I'm from a far more conservative area than Ontario.

Lots of retired folk sure like the cheap houses they can buy I'm Phoenix or Texas though and like the cheap beer they get while escaping winter.

All in all, I'm proud of the kids and people or education system produces.
Wow! I didn't know you can't own a handgun in Canada.
 
We are $20 trillion in debt (or will be shortly after this administration is done.)
For those who want to provide more for the poor, and provide open borders for more illegals to come to this country, what are you willing to give up? What are you willing to provide so that you can help pay for these expenses?
There has been roughly $17 trillion spent on the war on poverty that started in the 1960s. We are currently about $17 trillion in debt. The wealth of all the billionaires and millionaires in this country is about $4 trillion. You're going to need to give up quite about. So what are you giving ?

You and I think alike! Guys like Paul Ryan put out a budget plan and he is accused of pushing granny over the cliff. Fact is, we are all going to have to face up to the debt in the very near future or bust. Dem leaders say we will keep Social Security in a lockbox...however, the social security trust fund has been raided and borrowed against so there is no money in it!!

We need someone to come in and cut a bunch of stuff, because we are broke. No money is available to pay for obamacare/welfare/
pension bailouts/food stamps.

They (D) cannot tax us out of this, because we are talking 17-20+ trillion. Higher taxes might generate enough dollars to pay some of the interest.
 
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Unfortunately KSQ2, this is the mind set your family is up against. Everyone has a dollar amount above what they have that is fair game to steal. Isn't stealing in the 10 commandments? I'm thinking #8.


I am sooooo glad you brought that up!!!! Look at this!!http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+22:36-40
For those of you who don't want to follow that link, It is a verse where Jesus tells his disciples that the greatest commandment is to love God. And the second most important commandment is to love your neighbor as yourself!

Especially this one: "No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money."

And I'll end with this one Mark 12:17 where Jesus told the Pharisees to render unto Caesar what is Caesars, meaning: pay your taxes!
 
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This is a hunting forum, this is destroying the site imo.


TH, I have read a lot of your posts and threads since I've joined this site and I have come to the conclusion that you still have some growing up to do. I can appreciate that you might not want to read about politics/religion on a hunting forum but there is an awful lot of both involved with our sport. On top of that, there are a lot of good people on here with solid morals and beliefs and I think it would behoove you to pay attention and soak it up while you can.
The opportunity for you to be exposed to both sides of an argument in such a fashion is not something you'll readily find elsewhere.
I suggest you take a moment and digest some the things you've read here. It will help you form your own opinions later when we're not around to tell you what's what:D
 
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This explains my view better than I...

Question: "What does the Bible say about social justice?"

Answer:
Before discussing the Christian view of social justice, we need to define terms. Social justice is such a politically charged concept that it can’t really be divorced from its modern-day context. Social justice is often used as a rallying cry for many on the left side of the political spectrum. This excerpt from the “Social Justice” entry on Wikipedia is a good definition of this concept:

“Social justice is also a concept that some use to describe the movement towards a socially just world. In this context, social justice is based on the concepts of human rights and equality and involves a greater degree of economic egalitarianism through progressive taxation, income redistribution, or even property redistribution. These policies aim to achieve what developmental economists refer to as more equality of opportunity than may currently exist in some societies, and to manufacture equality of outcome in cases where incidental inequalities appear in a procedurally just system.”

The key word in this definition is the word “egalitarianism.” This word, coupled with the phrases “income redistribution,” “property redistribution,” and “equality of outcome,” says a great deal about social justice. Egalitarianism as a political doctrine essentially promotes the idea that all people should have the same (equal) political, social, economic and civil rights. This idea is based on the foundation of inalienable human rights enshrined in such documents as the Declaration of Independence.

However, as an economic doctrine, egalitarianism is the driving force behind socialism and communism. It is economic egalitarianism that seeks to remove the barriers of economic inequality by means of redistribution of wealth. We see this implemented in social welfare programs where progressive tax policies take proportionately more money from wealthy individuals in order to raise the standard of living for people who lack the same means. In other words, the government takes from the rich and gives to the poor.

The problem with this doctrine is twofold: first, there is a mistaken premise in economic egalitarianism that the rich have become wealthy by exploiting the poor. Much of the socialist literature of the past 150 years promotes this premise. This may have been primarily the case back when Karl Marx first wrote his Communist Manifesto, and even today it may be the case some of the time, but certainly not all of the time. Second, socialist programs tend to create more problems than they solve; in other words, they don’t work. Welfare, which uses public tax revenue to supplement the income of the underemployed or unemployed, typically has the effect of recipients becoming dependent on the government handout rather than trying to improve their situation. Every place where socialism/communism has been tried on a national scale, it has failed to remove the class distinctions in society. Instead, all it does is replace the nobility/common man distinction with a working class/political class distinction.

What, then, is the Christian view of social justice? The Bible teaches that God is a God of justice. In fact, “all his ways are justice” (Deuteronomy 32:4). Furthermore, the Bible supports the notion of social justice in which concern and care are shown to the plight of the poor and afflicted (Deuteronomy 10:18; 24:17; 27:19). The Bible often refers to the fatherless, the widow and the sojourner – that is, people who were not able to fend for themselves or had no support system. The nation of Israel was commanded by God to care for society’s less fortunate, and their eventual failure to do so was partly the reason for their judgment and expulsion from the land.

In Jesus’ Olivet Discourse, He mentions caring for the “least of these” (Matthew 25:40), and in James’ epistle he expounds on the nature of “true religion” (James 1:27). So, if by “social justice” we mean that society has a moral obligation to care for those less fortunate, then that is correct. God knows that, due to the fall, there will be widows, fatherless and sojourners in society, and He made provisions in the old and new covenants to care for these outcasts of society. The model of such behavior is Jesus Himself, who reflected God’s sense of justice by bringing the gospel message to even the outcasts of society.

However, the Christian notion of social justice is different from the contemporary notion of social justice. The biblical exhortations to care for the poor are more individual than societal. In other words, each Christian is encouraged to do what he can to help the “least of these.” The basis for such biblical commands is found in the second of the greatest commandments—love your neighbor as yourself (Matthew 22:39). Today’s notion of social justice replaces the individual with the government, which, through taxation and other means, redistributes wealth. This policy doesn’t encourage giving out of love, but resentment from those who see their hard-earned wealth being taken away.

Another difference is that the Christian worldview of social justice doesn’t assume the wealthy are the beneficiaries of ill-gotten gain. Wealth is not evil in a Christian worldview, but there is a responsibility and an expectation to be a good steward of one’s wealth (because all wealth comes from God). Today’s social justice operates under the assumption that the wealthy exploit the poor. A third difference is that, under the Christian concept of stewardship, the Christian can give to the charities he/she wants to support. For example, if a Christian has a heart for the unborn, he can support pro-life agencies with his time, talent and treasure. Under the contemporary form of social justice, it is those in power within the government who decide who receives the redistributed wealth. We have no control over what the government does with our tax money, and, more often than not, that money goes to charities we might not deem worthy.

Basically, there is a tension between a God-centered approach to social justice and a man-centered approach to social justice. The man-centered approach sees the government in the role of savior, bringing in a utopia through government policies. The God-centered approach sees Christ as Savior, bringing heaven to earth when He returns. At His return, Christ will restore all things and execute perfect justice. Until then, Christians express God's love and justice by showing kindness and mercy to those less fortunate.​
 
ThinkinRut...you didn't write that?:D

I'll read the whole thing in depth tonight when I get home. But I should warn you, I'm going out for drinks after work. Maybe I should beg your pardon now before I write something later under the influence!
It looks like an interesting read. I'm glad you posted it.
 
OK, here goes....

This explains my view better than I...


Question: "What does the Bible say about social justice?"


Answer: Before discussing the Christian view of social justice, we need to define terms. Social justice is such a politically charged concept that it can’t really be divorced from its modern-day context. Social justice is often used as a rallying cry for many on the left side of the political spectrum. This excerpt from the “Social Justice” entry on Wikipedia is a good definition of this concept:​

“Social justice is also a concept that some use to describe the movement towards a socially just world. In this context, social justice is based on the concepts of human rights and equality and involves a greater degree of economic egalitarianism through progressive taxation, income redistribution, or even property redistribution. These policies aim to achieve what developmental economists refer to as more equality of opportunity than may currently exist in some societies, and to manufacture equality of outcome in cases where incidental inequalities appear in a procedurally just system.”

The key word in this definition is the word “egalitarianism.” This word, coupled with the phrases “income redistribution,” “property redistribution,” and “equality of outcome,” says a great deal about social justice. Egalitarianism as a political doctrine essentially promotes the idea that all people should have the same (equal) political, social, economic and civil rights. This idea is based on the foundation of inalienable human rights enshrined in such documents as the Declaration of Independence.​
Remember this as you read this article.
1)However, as an economic doctrine, egalitarianism is the driving force behind socialism and communism. It is economic egalitarianism that seeks to remove the barriers of economic inequality by means of redistribution of wealth. We see this implemented in social welfare programs where progressive tax policies take proportionately more money from wealthy individuals in order to raise the standard of living for people who lack the same means. 2)In other words, the government takes from the rich and gives to the poor.
1)This is untrue. Egalitarianism has nothing to do with either socialism or communism. Egalitarianism is what was defined earlier. All people should have the same rights. Socialism and communism are more of a view on how goods are produced, consumed and what their worth is.
2) In a very narrow sense this is correct. Yet this is not the only thing the government does and to think that is their sole function is delusional and narrow minded.
The problem with this doctrine is twofold: first, there is a mistaken premise in economic egalitarianism that the rich have become wealthy by exploiting the poor.
There is some truth to people becoming wealthy by exploitation. Have you ever heard the Tennessee Ernie song "Sold My Soul to the Company Store"? It's about workers being exploited by the people they work for. What about the formation of Unions? Whether you agree with them or not, they were created for a reason.
Much of the socialist literature of the past 150 years promotes this premise. This may have been primarily the case back when Karl Marx first wrote his Communist Manifesto, and even today it may be the case some of the time, but certainly not all of the time. Second, socialist programs tend to create more problems than they solve; in other words, they don’t work. Welfare, which uses public tax revenue to supplement the income of the underemployed or unemployed, typically has the effect of recipients becoming dependent on the government handout rather than trying to improve their situation.
This is misleading in that it makes the assumption that jobs paying a live-able wage are available to had. Even Walmart had a company program that taught people how to apply for welfare and govn't assistance. These were full time employees.
Every place where socialism/communism has been tried on a national scale, it has failed to remove the class distinctions in society. Instead, all it does is replace the nobility/common man distinction with a working class/political class distinction.​
Yes, neither one has been successful when tried on a national level. It essentially looks like what we have here in the US. A few rich people and a lot of people who aren't. Granted we are much better off than those people, thanks in part to our judiciary system, yet at the end of the day our situations are similar.
What, then, is the Christian view of social justice? The Bible teaches that God is a God of justice. In fact, “all his ways are justice” (Deuteronomy 32:4). Furthermore, the Bible supports the notion of social justice in which concern and care are shown to the plight of the poor and afflicted (Deuteronomy 10:18; 24:17; 27:19). The Bible often refers to the fatherless, the widow and the sojourner – that is, people who were not able to fend for themselves or had no support system. The nation of Israel was commanded by God to care for society’s less fortunate, and their eventual failure to do so was partly the reason for their judgment and expulsion from the land.​

In Jesus’ Olivet Discourse, He mentions caring for the “least of these” (Matthew 25:40), and in James’ epistle he expounds on the nature of “true religion” (James 1:27). So, if by “social justice” we mean that society has a moral obligation to care for those less fortunate, then that is correct.
They have contradicted themselves in the paragraph after next, I will color it blue to highlight it.

God knows that, due to the fall, there will be widows, fatherless and sojourners in society, and He made provisions in the old and new covenants to care for these outcasts of society. The model of such behavior is Jesus Himself, who reflected God’s sense of justice by bringing the gospel message to even the outcasts of society.​

However, the Christian notion of social justice is different from the contemporary notion of social justice. The biblical exhortations to care for the poor are more individual than societal.
No, we have already established that it is societies responsibility.

In other words, each Christian is encouraged to do what he can to help the “least of these.” The basis for such biblical commands is found in the second of the greatest commandments—love your neighbor as yourself (Matthew 22:39). Today’s notion of social justice replaces the individual with the government, which, through taxation and other means, redistributes wealth.
No, what taxation does is pay for our roads, our national defense, healthcare, education, national parks systems....you get the idea.
This policy doesn’t encourage giving out of love, but resentment from those who see their hard-earned wealth being taken away.
As we discussed earlier, you can't love both God and money. There shouldn't be any resentment
Another difference is that the Christian worldview of social justice doesn’t assume the wealthy are the beneficiaries of ill-gotten gain. Wealth is not evil in a Christian worldview, but there is a responsibility and an expectation to be a good steward of one’s wealth (because all wealth comes from God).
This is true. Yet Romans 13:1-7 speaks about authority/government as well in that every person is to be subject to the governing authority because all authority comes from God.

Today’s social justice operates under the assumption that the wealthy exploit the poor.
No, todays social justice operates under the assumption that there are poor people who need help.
A third difference is that, under the Christian concept of stewardship, the Christian can give to the charities he/she wants to support. For example, if a Christian has a heart for the unborn, he can support pro-life agencies with his time, talent and treasure. Under the contemporary form of social justice, it is those in power within the government who decide who receives the redistributed wealth. We have no control over what the government does with our tax money,
This is a fallacy in that it is our unwillingness to hold elected officials responsible for their poor decisions. How many of you check on your representatives to make sure they are doing as you would wish?
and, more often than not, that money goes to charities we might not deem worthy.​
This is an assumption presented as fact. I bet many of you don't know what charities are or are not supported by the government.

Basically, there is a tension between a God-centered approach to social justice and a man-centered approach to social justice. The man-centered approach sees the government in the role of savior, bringing in a utopia through government policies.

Or, another way to say that would be...
So, if by “social justice” we mean that society has a moral obligation to care for those less fortunate, then that is correct.

The God-centered approach sees Christ as Savior, bringing heaven to earth when He returns. At His return, Christ will restore all things and execute perfect justice. Until then, Christians express God's love and justice by showing kindness and mercy to those less fortunate.​
This last paragraph is true as well.

For those of you following along, I commend you. This has been a winding and sometimes arduous mental exercise. Some of you may wonder what all of this has to do with hunting whitetail, well...nothing, really. It is just another topic that some here are passionate about and therefore find it a worthwhile thing with which to pass the time.

With that being said, I declare myself the victor in this debate! Unless someone else wants to make that declaration??:D:D:D
 
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