dbltree
Super Moderator
I have often asked myself that same question, but usually it does come back...let us know if yours does as well?
I have often asked myself that same question, but usually it does come back...let us know if yours does as well?
Daver
PMA Member
I have been in the same boat a few times myself and usually the clover surprises in the spring and does well, even though it was decimated in the winter. Where I had bad regrowth a time or two I think may have had more to do with the soil not being ideal in that specific spot. But in good soil areas my sense is that you will be OK.
You could always spruce things up a bit with a little frost seeding as a form of insurance.
6x6
PMA Member
Dbltree, I've been useing your brassica mix and rye fall mix for a few years with great results. I am planning on another drought year, but tearing up more brome sod this spring.
Can I plant winter rye and maybe clover early, like march, to get the benefit of all the organic matter and deep root system, instead of oats and clover? Then the fall mixes july/aug. All the areas that were brome sod last year burned up and did not turn into anything, no rain from mid aug-early oct. Wouldn't the rye still grow and seed out, to give me plenty of free rye seed, to disc under, for the late summer planting, plus hold moisture?
Can I plant winter rye and maybe clover early, like march, to get the benefit of all the organic matter and deep root system, instead of oats and clover? Then the fall mixes july/aug. All the areas that were brome sod last year burned up and did not turn into anything, no rain from mid aug-early oct. Wouldn't the rye still grow and seed out, to give me plenty of free rye seed, to disc under, for the late summer planting, plus hold moisture?
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dbltree
Super Moderator
February 20th, 2013
Unfortunately, the average landowner passionate about managing their property for whitetails understands very little about soils and the importance of planting crops that enhance rather then destroy the soil. Mostly their only concern is about attracting whitetails during hunting season and then...that lack of knowledge comes back to haunt them in the form of crop failures.
No crops = deer on the neighbors property who had the foresight to grow crops capable of building soils and feeding whitetails at the same time and for the most part, that largely excludes common crops like corn and soybeans that abuse the soil and are intolerant to drought.
Several extremely important things to consider for 2013 and beyond...
The 2011/2012 drought was so severe that soils are bone dry to 5' below the surface!!! Even with above average rainfall it will take two years for water to reach that level and replenish subsoil moisture! Think about that...TWO YEARS!!
Now...face this fact...forecasters are predicting that we may very well see continued drought cycle....that's pretty grim news my friends. If subsoils are already bone dry and we receive lower then normal rainfall, that doesn't bode well for growing successful food plots, unless....you are using the right cover crops!
The No Till Farmer is a great resource for info on cover crops and a recent article on extended drought.
Looking back thru the pages of this thread and the brassica thread one can see the outstanding benefits of planting winter rye along with other oft used cover crops such as winter peas, forage radish, red clover, crimson clover, rape and turnips.
Despite the worse drought since 1956 and possibly since the dust bowl days of the 30's, we successfully grew giant turnips and lush winter rye and thanks to those combinations our landowners successfully harvested mature bucks AND....their deer are still there, still feeding on the winter rye!!
Those without, those who plant soybeans and corn....(all of which his long ago gone)...had extremely poor yields and deer left for greener pastures! Now if you live on the east coast with plenty of rainfall, things went well for you but....your time will come....
The following pics are where I no-tilled the rye mix into an older white clover patch, purposefully leaving some areas for comparison. Deer have kept the rye mix mowed to the ground (as they have in 100% of our plots!!) but the rye roots have continued to grow and that is our insurance against disaster!
Winter rye roots extend deep into the soil and that allows water to reach the subsoil that otherwise would take years to get there!
385 miles of roots per acre act like a giant sponge, holding on to and preserving whatever moisture we get
Red clover planted with the rye will also help shade the soil from early spring till tilled under for brassicas in July
Brassica roots will follow the rye root channels deep into subsoils that are NOT as dry thanks to the cereal rye!!
Forage radish planted with the rye also create deep channels and freezing/thawing action helps pulverize hard pan soils which in turn allows the soil to absorb and HOLD moisture
While all of these fantastic things are going on below ground...deer are of course taking advantage of what is happening above ground!
Every time soils warm slightly, the rye continues to grow and in March as the early spring sun warms the ground, deer will flock to the now lush green fields...
What each landowner plants or doesn't plant can be crucial to their habitat/whitetail management plan, consider your options and make the choices right for you. The following works extremely well for us...not only in terms of successful nature buck harvests but in growing lush healthy crops when all others....fail.....
Unfortunately, the average landowner passionate about managing their property for whitetails understands very little about soils and the importance of planting crops that enhance rather then destroy the soil. Mostly their only concern is about attracting whitetails during hunting season and then...that lack of knowledge comes back to haunt them in the form of crop failures.
No crops = deer on the neighbors property who had the foresight to grow crops capable of building soils and feeding whitetails at the same time and for the most part, that largely excludes common crops like corn and soybeans that abuse the soil and are intolerant to drought.
Several extremely important things to consider for 2013 and beyond...
The 2011/2012 drought was so severe that soils are bone dry to 5' below the surface!!! Even with above average rainfall it will take two years for water to reach that level and replenish subsoil moisture! Think about that...TWO YEARS!!
Now...face this fact...forecasters are predicting that we may very well see continued drought cycle....that's pretty grim news my friends. If subsoils are already bone dry and we receive lower then normal rainfall, that doesn't bode well for growing successful food plots, unless....you are using the right cover crops!
The No Till Farmer is a great resource for info on cover crops and a recent article on extended drought.
Looking back thru the pages of this thread and the brassica thread one can see the outstanding benefits of planting winter rye along with other oft used cover crops such as winter peas, forage radish, red clover, crimson clover, rape and turnips.
Despite the worse drought since 1956 and possibly since the dust bowl days of the 30's, we successfully grew giant turnips and lush winter rye and thanks to those combinations our landowners successfully harvested mature bucks AND....their deer are still there, still feeding on the winter rye!!
Those without, those who plant soybeans and corn....(all of which his long ago gone)...had extremely poor yields and deer left for greener pastures! Now if you live on the east coast with plenty of rainfall, things went well for you but....your time will come....
The following pics are where I no-tilled the rye mix into an older white clover patch, purposefully leaving some areas for comparison. Deer have kept the rye mix mowed to the ground (as they have in 100% of our plots!!) but the rye roots have continued to grow and that is our insurance against disaster!
Winter rye roots extend deep into the soil and that allows water to reach the subsoil that otherwise would take years to get there!
385 miles of roots per acre act like a giant sponge, holding on to and preserving whatever moisture we get
Red clover planted with the rye will also help shade the soil from early spring till tilled under for brassicas in July
Brassica roots will follow the rye root channels deep into subsoils that are NOT as dry thanks to the cereal rye!!
Forage radish planted with the rye also create deep channels and freezing/thawing action helps pulverize hard pan soils which in turn allows the soil to absorb and HOLD moisture
While all of these fantastic things are going on below ground...deer are of course taking advantage of what is happening above ground!
Every time soils warm slightly, the rye continues to grow and in March as the early spring sun warms the ground, deer will flock to the now lush green fields...
What each landowner plants or doesn't plant can be crucial to their habitat/whitetail management plan, consider your options and make the choices right for you. The following works extremely well for us...not only in terms of successful nature buck harvests but in growing lush healthy crops when all others....fail.....
goatman
I hunt days ending in Y
March 3,2013
The deer have eaten all the brassicas,rye and clover away from the house. So they inch closer to the house for some rye that grew under the snow and no pressure.
Will be dirt before long. 10 on it last night at 5:00PM. Only 2 bucks packing now. Only one shed so far in the plots.
The deer have eaten all the brassicas,rye and clover away from the house. So they inch closer to the house for some rye that grew under the snow and no pressure.
Will be dirt before long. 10 on it last night at 5:00PM. Only 2 bucks packing now. Only one shed so far in the plots.
dbltree
Super Moderator
March 11th, 2013
Tough time of year to find anything to eat if you are a winter weary whitetail, unless of course you live where winter rye is a part of each feeding area...
Commonly landowners grow crops solely to hunt over and crops like corn and soybeans are short lived sources of food. I find it ironic that people will feed expensive minerals for instance yet never give any thought to providing a food source that lasts all winter. Winter rye on average is the highest in crude protein of all winter cereals and at 14-15% it alone can provide all of a whitetails winter protein needs. One can of course feed corn or commercial supplements but those are extremely costly, labor intensive and come with an increased risk of disease by concentrating deer in small areas where nose to nose contact is a daily occurrence.
We plant all of our crops in each feeding area and then rotate those crops annually for many reasons...having ALL the crop types in each feeding area helps adapt deer to feeding there 365 days a year which has obvious advantages from a hunting standpoint. The ability to rotate those crops helps eliminate disease and pest problems by breaking the cycle and we can lower herbicide and fertilizer needs by tilling under lush legumes like red, crimson and berseem clovers. Those legumes add tons of biomass and nitrogen as the killed plants break down.
While the rotation is very simple, it may seem otherwise at first so occasionally we try to show clear examples of how the rotation works. White clover is an important tool in our feeding areas but because it is a relatively long lived perennial it is really not considered part of the rotation. When the clover starts to get "tired" we can start rotating to brassicas one time, then re-seeding via the rye mix and adding white clover. This process might only happen every 5 years for instance so for the purposes of understanding our crop rotation...we'll exclude clover.
That leaves the rye mix (winter rye, oats, peas, radish and red clover) and the brassica mix (forage radish, rape and turnips)...two crop types which makes for a very simple "flip flop" each year. The following shows 2012 plantings on one of our landowners farms...
Note that this field is around 5 acres so we divide it into multiple strips but most fields are simply divided in 1/2. Note also that we planted white clover in odd corners of the field other then one strip within the field (not disable in the pic)
This summer the strips will be rotated to opposite crops as they were in 2012 while the clover stays the same. Each spring the strips that now have dead/eaten brassicas will be planted to a temporary cover crop of oats and annual clovers which will then be tilled under in late August to plant the rye mix...this is a part of the overall rotation but not a 3rd or different one.
Hopefully for those just reading these threads now, or new to "farming for deer" the pictures will make the concept of rotating crops a little easier to understand. The mixes themselves are listed below but fertilizer and lime recommendations are just a starting point for those who did not have time to take soil samples...failure to test your soils can mean you needlessly apply unnecessary nutrients which can be very costly not to mention laborious.
Tough time of year to find anything to eat if you are a winter weary whitetail, unless of course you live where winter rye is a part of each feeding area...
Commonly landowners grow crops solely to hunt over and crops like corn and soybeans are short lived sources of food. I find it ironic that people will feed expensive minerals for instance yet never give any thought to providing a food source that lasts all winter. Winter rye on average is the highest in crude protein of all winter cereals and at 14-15% it alone can provide all of a whitetails winter protein needs. One can of course feed corn or commercial supplements but those are extremely costly, labor intensive and come with an increased risk of disease by concentrating deer in small areas where nose to nose contact is a daily occurrence.
We plant all of our crops in each feeding area and then rotate those crops annually for many reasons...having ALL the crop types in each feeding area helps adapt deer to feeding there 365 days a year which has obvious advantages from a hunting standpoint. The ability to rotate those crops helps eliminate disease and pest problems by breaking the cycle and we can lower herbicide and fertilizer needs by tilling under lush legumes like red, crimson and berseem clovers. Those legumes add tons of biomass and nitrogen as the killed plants break down.
While the rotation is very simple, it may seem otherwise at first so occasionally we try to show clear examples of how the rotation works. White clover is an important tool in our feeding areas but because it is a relatively long lived perennial it is really not considered part of the rotation. When the clover starts to get "tired" we can start rotating to brassicas one time, then re-seeding via the rye mix and adding white clover. This process might only happen every 5 years for instance so for the purposes of understanding our crop rotation...we'll exclude clover.
That leaves the rye mix (winter rye, oats, peas, radish and red clover) and the brassica mix (forage radish, rape and turnips)...two crop types which makes for a very simple "flip flop" each year. The following shows 2012 plantings on one of our landowners farms...
Note that this field is around 5 acres so we divide it into multiple strips but most fields are simply divided in 1/2. Note also that we planted white clover in odd corners of the field other then one strip within the field (not disable in the pic)
This summer the strips will be rotated to opposite crops as they were in 2012 while the clover stays the same. Each spring the strips that now have dead/eaten brassicas will be planted to a temporary cover crop of oats and annual clovers which will then be tilled under in late August to plant the rye mix...this is a part of the overall rotation but not a 3rd or different one.
Hopefully for those just reading these threads now, or new to "farming for deer" the pictures will make the concept of rotating crops a little easier to understand. The mixes themselves are listed below but fertilizer and lime recommendations are just a starting point for those who did not have time to take soil samples...failure to test your soils can mean you needlessly apply unnecessary nutrients which can be very costly not to mention laborious.
Daver
PMA Member
Call Aaron at Iowa Missouri Hybrids, he is right in Keosauqua and what he doesn't have on hand he will get it in for you in a couple of days. 641-919-1695
dbltree
Super Moderator
April 3rd, 2013
The winter rye element of the crop combos really shines this time of year! Because rye is the most winter hardy cereal and will grow at 34 degrees, it's keeping deer fed while other cereals are still sleeping! It also has the highest average crude protein which is important to winter weary whitetails. Note the brassica half of the plot is nothing but dirt...those who plant only brassicas or beans force their deer to look elsewhere for food and at a time they need it most.
Deer are grazing this rye as fast as it can grow but what is going on underground is amazing! Nearly 400 miles of root systems that provide insurance against drought this summer as well as leaving 4' channels into the subsoil. The brassica crop that follows will send their roots down those same channels to reach subsoil moisture and nutrients.
The sleeping giant in the mix is...red clover! It started last fall and is waiting to leap to life this spring, providing high quality food sources up to 2 1/2 tons of biomass and up to 130#'s of nitrogen for the next brassica crop. Winter rye is the perfect companion crop because unlike wheat, rye does not tiller and suffocate the clovers.
No question where the landowners deer are!! They come to this plot 24-7, 365 days a year knowing they can count on it! Winter rye is just one of the important yet crucial tools in keeping our deer fed, and allowing us to better manage our deer herd.
The following is what we use to help landowners across Iowa and Missouri successfully manage their deer herds and their soils at the same time....
The winter rye element of the crop combos really shines this time of year! Because rye is the most winter hardy cereal and will grow at 34 degrees, it's keeping deer fed while other cereals are still sleeping! It also has the highest average crude protein which is important to winter weary whitetails. Note the brassica half of the plot is nothing but dirt...those who plant only brassicas or beans force their deer to look elsewhere for food and at a time they need it most.
Deer are grazing this rye as fast as it can grow but what is going on underground is amazing! Nearly 400 miles of root systems that provide insurance against drought this summer as well as leaving 4' channels into the subsoil. The brassica crop that follows will send their roots down those same channels to reach subsoil moisture and nutrients.
The sleeping giant in the mix is...red clover! It started last fall and is waiting to leap to life this spring, providing high quality food sources up to 2 1/2 tons of biomass and up to 130#'s of nitrogen for the next brassica crop. Winter rye is the perfect companion crop because unlike wheat, rye does not tiller and suffocate the clovers.
No question where the landowners deer are!! They come to this plot 24-7, 365 days a year knowing they can count on it! Winter rye is just one of the important yet crucial tools in keeping our deer fed, and allowing us to better manage our deer herd.
The following is what we use to help landowners across Iowa and Missouri successfully manage their deer herds and their soils at the same time....
Daver
PMA Member
A FWIW on rye...I have rye that is now back green and growing just like the pictures that Paul showed. (In fact some of my rye was drilled in by Paul last fall.) As we were leaving our farm a few days ago in the evening close to dark, deer were coming into the nearby rye and were "heads down feeding" right away even though we were only 75 yards away loading up the ATV, etc.
They not only flock to the new rye shoots at this time of the year, they almost appear desparate to get to it. This is a low food availability time of the year naturally and there really is nothing better than rye to keep the deer fed right now.
I know I am feeding a lot of deer right now on my place primarily with the rye that was planted last fall that is regrowing now and tender browse from tree tops that I am dropping as I continue hinge cutting in my timber.
They not only flock to the new rye shoots at this time of the year, they almost appear desparate to get to it. This is a low food availability time of the year naturally and there really is nothing better than rye to keep the deer fed right now.
I know I am feeding a lot of deer right now on my place primarily with the rye that was planted last fall that is regrowing now and tender browse from tree tops that I am dropping as I continue hinge cutting in my timber.
Looking to start my rotation with the notorious dbltree mix, can I plant something in May to keep weeds down until summer/fall plantings? I am looking to get the mix going as soon as possible while at the same time having plots to hunt on this fall. The locations are on newly planted highly productive CRP ground only 2 years old located along the Des Moines river.
Thanks in advance.
Jeremy
Thanks in advance.
Jeremy
HorseDoctor
PMA Member
"Follow the dead brassicas with oats and berseem or crimson clover in mid spring at 60#'s oats and 12-15#'s berseem clover and/or 50#'s of chickling vetch)"
excerpted from dbltree's post. I have used straight oats but plan on adding some berseem this year.
excerpted from dbltree's post. I have used straight oats but plan on adding some berseem this year.
SEIowaDeerslayer
Well-Known Member
You can plant oats and clover in May to hold down the weeds. Till that under and plant your rye and radishes in early September. If you're planting turnips, plant those towards the end of July.
I'm having a hard time finding what (if anything) I should do with the Cereal plot this Spring, until I rotate it to Brassicas later this summer? It looks great right now as others are saying, clovers are coming up great and the Winter Rye looks amazing! I'm just not sure if I should kill off the Winter Rye or ???
dbltree
Super Moderator
Spray the rye with clethodim and crop oil in late May or mow before May 15th or after mid June. Does hide fawns in the rye so don't mow during fawning season.
We prefer to spray and leave rye standing until 1st of July and then shred straw. We use 12 ounces clethodim, 6-8 ounces glyphosate and 1 quart crop...all of which is safe on clovers but will nuke the rye and any grasses, yet leave the rye for fawning cover.
dbltree
Super Moderator
May 15th, 2013
In most of the Midwest we should try avoid mowing winter rye after May 15th because it makes great fawning habitat and mowing between now and early June not only destroys that habitat but the fawns themselves. Spraying however will leave the rye standing and far less likely to harm fawns.
Allowing the winter rye to grow also provides more soil benefits then if killed earlier...this rye was the first planted last fall.
We have had the wettest spring in 140 years of keeping records here in Iowa so we are only now starting to get some oats and annual clovers planted in the brassica portions of the plots. With more rain on the way it may be June before many of those areas get planted!
Spray rye/clover areas with 12 ounces clethodim, 8 ounces glyphosate and 1 quart crop oil in early June
The red clover planted with the rye last fall is now providing an excellent source of food and keeping whitetails coming to our plots
Many landowners plant only one food source which means that for 6 or more months of the year they offer their deer nothing more then a "dirt plot" which forces whitetails to develop new habits as they seek out other food sources. Offering them a lush, high quality source of protein at a time when lactating does and bucks growing antlers need it most, in the same field/plot as they fed in last fall is a win win! Not only is it important for deer and our hunting strategies but clovers also contribute a large share of the nitrogen needed for the brassicas that will be planted here in July.
Hairy vetch can fix even more nitrogen and winter rye/hairy vetch is a nearly unbeatable cover crop combination and a good healthy crop of vetch has the potential to provide all the nitrogen needs for a crop of corn or brassicas. Since urea can be difficult to find in bags, not to mention expensive, planting both red clover and hairy vetch with the rye mix in the fall can have obvious advantages.
Planting the right combination of crops in each field covers all bases so to speak, providing year around food sources that keep deer adapted and habituated to coming to one place, 24-7, 365 days a year as well as building organic matter and lowering fertilizer costs.
Consider the following mixes to grow more tons of high quality food sources then anything you will find advertised in your hunting magazine....
In most of the Midwest we should try avoid mowing winter rye after May 15th because it makes great fawning habitat and mowing between now and early June not only destroys that habitat but the fawns themselves. Spraying however will leave the rye standing and far less likely to harm fawns.
Allowing the winter rye to grow also provides more soil benefits then if killed earlier...this rye was the first planted last fall.
We have had the wettest spring in 140 years of keeping records here in Iowa so we are only now starting to get some oats and annual clovers planted in the brassica portions of the plots. With more rain on the way it may be June before many of those areas get planted!
Spray rye/clover areas with 12 ounces clethodim, 8 ounces glyphosate and 1 quart crop oil in early June
The red clover planted with the rye last fall is now providing an excellent source of food and keeping whitetails coming to our plots
Many landowners plant only one food source which means that for 6 or more months of the year they offer their deer nothing more then a "dirt plot" which forces whitetails to develop new habits as they seek out other food sources. Offering them a lush, high quality source of protein at a time when lactating does and bucks growing antlers need it most, in the same field/plot as they fed in last fall is a win win! Not only is it important for deer and our hunting strategies but clovers also contribute a large share of the nitrogen needed for the brassicas that will be planted here in July.
Hairy vetch can fix even more nitrogen and winter rye/hairy vetch is a nearly unbeatable cover crop combination and a good healthy crop of vetch has the potential to provide all the nitrogen needs for a crop of corn or brassicas. Since urea can be difficult to find in bags, not to mention expensive, planting both red clover and hairy vetch with the rye mix in the fall can have obvious advantages.
Planting the right combination of crops in each field covers all bases so to speak, providing year around food sources that keep deer adapted and habituated to coming to one place, 24-7, 365 days a year as well as building organic matter and lowering fertilizer costs.
Consider the following mixes to grow more tons of high quality food sources then anything you will find advertised in your hunting magazine....