dbltree
Super Moderator
If left uncut it will flower by late June and eventually go to seed.
I don't have an exact time frame but I think clover flowers roughly in 3-4 weeks after clipping and will do so all season unless there is dry weather, frost or it remains uncut and goes to seed.
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Just read the thread on SPIKE OATS. I am thinking WAY AHEAD for a plot I am planting in August. I can fertilize later, PH is good.
If you could pick a few things to go in a mix what would it be? Annual Rye seems to be a favorite I hear mentioned.
Would you mix in a Winter Wheat or bag that component?
Jerry Oats or Frank Forage oats OR would you not go with any oats at all??
The last component COULD be something like a Turnip or something, what is your specific choice there????
Or would you throw these ideas out and go with some type of fast maturing beans, peas, etc???
Nearby I have 8 acres of Grazing Alfalfa, 4 acres of regular round-up ready beans, some standing corn and white clover with a small patch of red also. Looking for more November, December & January attractant- really worried the deer are going to starve!
Thanks!!!
If you could pick a few things to go in a mix what would it be? Annual Rye seems to be a favorite I hear mentioned.
Would you mix in a Winter Wheat or bag that component?
Jerry Oats or Frank Forage oats OR would you not go with any oats at all??
The last component COULD be something like a Turnip or something, what is your specific choice there????
Or would you throw these ideas out and go with some type of fast maturing beans, peas, etc???
Nearby I have 8 acres of Grazing Alfalfa, 4 acres of regular round-up ready beans, some standing corn and white clover with a small patch of red also. Looking for more November, December & January attractant- really worried the deer are going to starve!
Thanks!!!
dbltree
Super Moderator
My favorite fall mix is winter rye, spring oats and AWP's, it's to late to get any real growth out of brassicas and they don't coexist well with cereal grains (or anything else for that matter)
Forget the wheat...it's a nitrogen user while rye is a nitrogen scavenger, it can grow on almost any PH, with no fertilizer, it build soil, it has alleopathic weed control benefits and is the most winter hardy of all cereal grains.
On top of that rye has the highest crude protien which makes rye a no brainer! Plant it the last week of August thru the first week in September.
Very inexpensive mix to seed too! :way:
Forget the wheat...it's a nitrogen user while rye is a nitrogen scavenger, it can grow on almost any PH, with no fertilizer, it build soil, it has alleopathic weed control benefits and is the most winter hardy of all cereal grains.
On top of that rye has the highest crude protien which makes rye a no brainer! Plant it the last week of August thru the first week in September.
Very inexpensive mix to seed too! :way:
In Kansas where I hunt they plant wheat for about 5 years in a row and then rotate to milo.
What would a guy have to do to plant rye/oats/AWP every year?
Could you plant soybeans in the spring and then disc under and plant the rye/oats/AWP?
How many years could you do that in a row till you need to rotate?
Thanks Very Much For Your Unbelievable Knowledge!
What would a guy have to do to plant rye/oats/AWP every year?
Could you plant soybeans in the spring and then disc under and plant the rye/oats/AWP?
How many years could you do that in a row till you need to rotate?
Thanks Very Much For Your Unbelievable Knowledge!
dbltree
Super Moderator
Great question! I include an inexpensive red clover with my fall rye/oats/peas combo every year and that allows you to have a spring food source and a late summer legume plowdown that helps break up any disease/pest cycles.
This is red clover planted last fall with rye...this pic was taken in late May!
You can clip the rye off in late may or Early June or just leave it standing
The oats of course will have died during cold weather but the rye will survive and mature just like wheat.
This is field rye in late may
This is the "seed head" just like wheat and if you let them mature and till it under in late summer the scattered seed will come up again.
The clover will be thicker if the rye is clipped off in mid spring so that it can get plenty of light.
In short I suspect that you could go for years using this combination of rye/oats/AWP and red clover and never have a problem. None of those food sources are prone to disease like brassicas and wheat tend to be.
Soybeans are certainly an option but they would be very expensive compared to planting clover, although cereal rye could be broadcast into standing soybeans in late August.
dbltree
Super Moderator
I usually use Alta-Swede Mammoth Red Clover because it produces a large amount of organic mass to till under and deer seem to really hammer the stuff.
At 10-12#'s per acre it will run $20-25 an acre to add it to your fall grain mix.
Any of the white clovers will also work equally as well running only slightly more per acre. I have fall seeded Alice, KopuII and Jumbo Ladino white clovers for at 6#'s per acre which runs $25-30 an acre.
Any white or red clover would work well I just try to keep costs down for a plow down clover versus a long term clover plot.
You can find a selection of anything you need right here: Welter's Clover Seed List
Outdoor Family
New Member
dbltree
Couple questions. What would the seeding rate for AWP, Rye, Oats and Red Clover be per acre? Also, I am hoping to plant Buckwheat late June, prior to APW/Rye/Oat/Clover planting in early September. Is two months of BW enough time to help with weeds and soil?
Thanks
Couple questions. What would the seeding rate for AWP, Rye, Oats and Red Clover be per acre? Also, I am hoping to plant Buckwheat late June, prior to APW/Rye/Oat/Clover planting in early September. Is two months of BW enough time to help with weeds and soil?
Thanks
dbltree
Super Moderator
2 months is plenty for buckwheat and probally just perfect timing!
Planting rates for the mix can vary widely depending on your budget because it's not going to be used for grain, only forage meaning that we can sow much heavier then normal rates.
Rates depend on your expected usage or deer densities so there is no "right/wrong" just a range to choose from.
I like to sow 80#'s of winter rye, 80-120#'s of oats and 15-30#'s of AWPeas and 8-12#'s of red clover.
Till, plant grains, cultipack to cover, sow red clover and re-cultipack Grains can be lightly disced or dragged an 1" or so deep but clover needs to be just pressed into the top 1/8 to 1/4" of soil so don't mix clover seed with the grains.
You can use lower rates, you can leave out the oats and peas or mix and match to your choice but that's what I use in my high deer desnity area's. Look back at the beginning of this thread for details and pictures...
I almost never fertilize cereal grains so it's entirely up to the landowner if your trying to build soil fertility and PH then it's a good time to start adding P&K based on soil tests and lime if it's needed.
The grains will grow with out adding anything unless the ground is extremely poor. If you expect very heavy grazing then adding 100#'s of urea per acre will cause the rye and oats to take off like a rocket!
Sometimes growth can be TOO fast when nitrogen is added so use a little caution when using nitrogen. It's better with later planted grains then earlier.
In southern Iowa, very late August through Labor Day is optimum planting time for fall grains with the first of September being what I shoot for.
Again...flip back to page one for more details on all of your questions...
Outdoor Family
New Member
Thanks Dbltree
I have two other fields that I will be planting a rape/turnip mix in. Could I add red clover over the top of them also, to have a spring green up and adding N to the ground…
I have two other fields that I will be planting a rape/turnip mix in. Could I add red clover over the top of them also, to have a spring green up and adding N to the ground…
dbltree
Super Moderator
Rape and turnips need to be planted in late July to early August and they will quickly dominate and completely shade the ground. I have tried planting clover with them but it doesn't stand a chance and not a single clover plant survives.
Check the brassica thread for pics and examples: Brassicas
I have tried frost seeding into brassica plots and it will work if deer completely devour the plot, if however they leave most of it, the decaying plants are too toxic and have some alleopathic characteristics that can keep clover seed from germinating or even growing if it does germinate.
So far I have had the most success by tilling the spent brassica plot under in the spring and re-planting with oats and berseem clover and then tilling that under the end of the summer for a rye/oats/AWP plot.
Doing this allows me to rotate crops and keep disease and pest problems at a minimum....
Talked to Monte today with Iowa Habitats on fall food plots (great company if you guys ever need someone to do food plots, native plantings or TSI---www.iowahabitats.com)
He recommended broadcasting the oats, wheat, AWP, Red Clover and 1/3 of the rye around Sept 1st. Ten days to two weeks later broadcasting another 1/3 of the rye on same plot. Then the other 1/3 a week later. He said the different growth stages of the rye could be more attractive.
Thought it was a good idea.
He recommended broadcasting the oats, wheat, AWP, Red Clover and 1/3 of the rye around Sept 1st. Ten days to two weeks later broadcasting another 1/3 of the rye on same plot. Then the other 1/3 a week later. He said the different growth stages of the rye could be more attractive.
Thought it was a good idea.
dbltree
Super Moderator
It can work if you get rains so that the rye will germinate although usually it doesn't take to much.
Can't hurt except that I like to get them planted and stay the heck out of the food plots thru the fall.
The only way you can tell if something like that is worth the effort is to split the plot and add more rye to one side only and see if they find it more attractive.
I don't ned to coax mine, doggone things devour everything in site anyway...
Let us know how it works out...
Was looking at Albert Lea Seed Catalog and with the rye, AWP, and instead of the red clover, why not plant alsike clover.
It says for red clover to plant 10 to 12 lbs per acre and the seed cost $2.70 per pound
It says for alsike clover to plant 5 to 8 lbs per acre and the seed cost $1.40 per pound
If we are going to plowdown the clover, why not go with the "much" cheaper kind and my QDMA Quality Food Plots book gives Alsike clover a 5 star for attraction
Dbltree, we need your expertise!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It says for red clover to plant 10 to 12 lbs per acre and the seed cost $2.70 per pound
It says for alsike clover to plant 5 to 8 lbs per acre and the seed cost $1.40 per pound
If we are going to plowdown the clover, why not go with the "much" cheaper kind and my QDMA Quality Food Plots book gives Alsike clover a 5 star for attraction
Dbltree, we need your expertise!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
dbltree
Super Moderator
Great question, there are other options but here are my thoughts...
First off I use Alta-Swede Mammoth Red Cloverfrom Welter seed and it's only $2 a pound or roughly $20 an acre.
Red Clover fixes more nitrogen per acre then Alsike and more pounds per acre of organic matter when plowed down. I have also noticed that deer seem to find red clover more palatable and attractive then alsike.
Alsike has a few problems:
Alsike is adapted to moist low lying areas and I have all dry upland hill ground so consider that as well. Rye is tall and shading so you would want to clip the rye in the spring.
Having said that, if saving 10 bucks an acre is important to you, then it certainly would work. Just keep in mind that you "get what you pay for" as the benefits will be decreased along with the decreased expense.
Albert Lea has a great seed selection but shipping will be less for you if you order from Welter Seed in Iowa or check locally for red clover seed as often local producers may have it for less then $2 a pound and no shipping at all.
Adding white, red or alsike is a big plus and the difference in cost per acre is really minimal if you shop around for seed. In the spring, annuals such as berseem or crimson clovers fill the bill for green manure plowdowns.
In Iowa red clover is on of the most adaptable and widely used clovers for grazing and hay production and for me it's merits make it my choice for a plowdown clover...
Innoculent and Mixing Instructions
Dbltree,
Bought all of my oats, rye, AWP, red clover and a little wheat.
1. Should I innoculate any of these (I see in the past you have innoculated the AWP)
2. How is the best way to mix this stuff. I have a 3 point broadcaster just like the red one you have dbltree?
3. Should I premix it before going to the field? I was even thinking of taking some large plastic trash cans and mix them and have them ready so when I am in the field I am getting stuff done (I have about 10 acres of this to do)?
Thanks Again!!!!!!
Dbltree,
Bought all of my oats, rye, AWP, red clover and a little wheat.
1. Should I innoculate any of these (I see in the past you have innoculated the AWP)
2. How is the best way to mix this stuff. I have a 3 point broadcaster just like the red one you have dbltree?
3. Should I premix it before going to the field? I was even thinking of taking some large plastic trash cans and mix them and have them ready so when I am in the field I am getting stuff done (I have about 10 acres of this to do)?
Thanks Again!!!!!!
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dbltree
Super Moderator
Yes...you need to inoculate the peas and red clover as they are both legumes and you can order it from Welters for a few bucks and mix the inoculate with the legume seed in a seperate bucket before mixing seeds together.
Welters Inoculation
I mix the seeds right in the spreader, pour some of each in, stir it up, them keep adding and stirring but you could pre mix it for sure.
Make sure you wait until at least the last week in August before planting and DO NOT mix the red clover with the larger grains!
Sow the peas, rye, oats and wheat, cultipack to cover then broadcast the red clover and re-pack to cover that.
The red clover seed is very very tiny so if you use your broadcast spreader close it done to just barely let the RC seed go thru.
Personally I use a hand seeder to sow the clover seeds because it's easier to control but the 3 pt will work fine if you close it way down and check your seeding rate...