Clover

[Ghost]

Mowing will help to control the grasses, but if it gets too bad then a good dose of Select will help.

Frost seeding is always better than just "overseeding" in the Fall.

Your best bet may be to wait to seed until mid-March and just keep it mowed this Summer.

Then in mid-March, go in and hit it with 5 to 7 pounds per acre clover seed and add 250 pounds per acre of 6-28-28.

I can come take a look at it with you sometime if you want. You got my number... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

 

[Ghost]

I see we were typing at the same time again Paul... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

 

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ghost</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I see we were typing at the same time again Paul... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

</div></div>

and great minds think alike! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

 

[Sligh1]

I think I might try BOTH seeding before a rain AND frost seeding later BECAUSE- I know frost seeding is better BUT I want as much clover as possible for this fall (having deer snacks all over!) PLUS it's less than an acre (if it fails I might be out $50). Now, the point where I wouldn't do the before rain, late summer broadcast is if someone said "there's little to no chance it will improve your FALL PLOT". It sounds like from above, there's a DECENT CHANCE (???) it could thicken it up. I know after frost seeding this next March my plot will be MONEY but hopefully there's some "hope" for this fall. There's a chance I might want to yank a drill into the area and just drill in about 10-15 lbs too. THANKS AGAIN FOR YOUR ABOVE SUGGESTIONS!!!

 

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"there's little to no chance it will improve your FALL PLOT" </div></div>

I would try for a late July/early August seeding to get enough growth by fall Skip. It won't get very big even then but it's better then not having anything for sure. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

[Crimson Arrows]

Thanks Guys! More helpful than any magazine! Ghost, I will def take you up on that offer! Have had trouble getting down from Cedar Rapids and Coralville until yesterday with the flood. I'll give you a buzz and maybe after work on a Wed I can meet you out at my place this summer. Thanks Paul..again...I appreciate it!

 

[Sligh1]

LAST QUESTION, in next month or so here I will buy some seed for down the road (wait as long as I can). For the ways I described broadcasting (late summer & Frost seeding) & say cost is no issue (small acreage amounts), what would be your top couple choices? My sparse plots have Jumbo Ladino, grazing alf-alfa, Alice white, small amount of Persist red, small amount of alsike.

I am leaning towards Jumbo Ladino and maybe one other, possibly Kura clover and/or some Alice white. Opinions?!?!? THANKS!

 

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For the ways I described broadcasting (late summer & Frost seeding) & say cost is no issue (small acreage amounts), what would be your top couple choices? My sparse plots have Jumbo Ladino, grazing alf-alfa, Alice white, small amount of Persist red, small amount of alsike.

I am leaning towards Jumbo Ladino and maybe one other, possibly Kura clover and/or some Alice white. Opinions?!?!? </div></div>

I would discourage anyone from trying to broadcast alfalfa seed on untilled ground. I won't say it will never work but it has rarely been successful for me and frost seeding alfalfa never works, so in your case I would rule out alfalfa.

Kura clover is also difficult and slow to establish under even the best circumstances and soil/seed contact is crucial so again it is a poor choice for this type of seeding.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Establishment
Kura clover establishes well with orchardgrass, tall fescue, bluegrass, reeds canarygrass, bromes, timothies, birdsfoot trefoil, and both red and white clovers. These companion species should be seeded at moderate seeding rates. Ryegrass and festuloliums can be added after Endura has successfully established. When seeding, it is ideal to use a brillion seeder, a no-till drill or a cultipacker. Seed to soil contact is vital to having a successful stand. Take caution to not plant seed more than 1/4" deep.
Management
Producers must realize that Kura clover is more difficult to establish than either white or red clovers. Competive grasses must be controlled, especially during the first six weeks of growth. Newly established stands must be grazed or clipped if established with grasses to reduce competition. Herbicides may be applied for weed control if sowing a pure stand. Weed control and proper grazing management the first year is vital to stand establishment.

</div></div>

Alice, Jumbo Ladino, Kopu 2 and Durana and almost any types of red clovers will have a reasonable chance broadcast this summer ahead of a good rain and excellent success if you frost seed them.

Other white clovers will of course have the same chance of success if you find a deal on them. Ghost has a very reasonable source for alsike clover seed although I prefer white clover for palatability for deer.

Many commercial mixes will have white and red clovers that will work well but they are just a little to expensive for me. They contain to many seed types that would not do well unless tilled and planted properly. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

[risto2351]

Put this plot in last year in the spring. It was mainly white clovers with chicory. It was real weedy and sparse last year. I frost seeded the bare spots this spring and mowed it two weeks ago.
It has really taken off.

I can not even see the chicory.

I would like to cut it but it again but it is in CRP. I will have to wait until the nesting season is over. I will spray this coming weekend or the next.

 

[TallTines]

[/quote]I would like to cut it but it again but it is in CRP. I will have to wait until the nesting season is over. I will spray this coming weekend or the next. [/quote]

I think if the clover plot is built into your conservation plan that you can mow when you want to.

 

[dbltree]

That looks awesome!! I can see a little chicory but the clover is pretty thick for sure.

Doesn't look like any real threatening weed or grass problems in those pics at least so it should be fine until August, especially if you spray.

Remember you could have someone harvest it for hay by paying the $75 fee at FSA to release it for haying. Good way to remove all the growth and not have to worry about smothering.

If you clip it yourself...do just that, clip the weeds and flowering tops of the clover but no need to mow it to the ground unless your going to bale it.

2nd year clover always looks much better then the first year and with some care it should look great for a long time to come.

Thanks for sharing the pics Tony /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

[Sligh1]

ON AVERAGE, when is the last time you all generally cut your clover or alf-alfa AND at what height? Basically, how tall do you like it to be when fall hunting is upon you?

I obviously love the great browse/nutrition in the summer BUT I want optimal tenderness and palatability to attract deer late into fall with enough leaf for it to last as long as possible.

 

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ON AVERAGE, when is the last time you all generally cut your clover or alf-alfa AND at what height? Basically, how tall do you like it to be when fall hunting is upon you?
</div></div>

Everybody has different situations and conditions but I ususally try for early September. Clover could be cut a little later but alfalfa needs time to regenerate and cutting during the month of September is usally not reccomended.

I just clipped on of my Alice White Clover plots and took some pics that shoe before and after and how I do it but that does not mean one can cut taller or shorter, less or more. Just sharing what works for me.

This is a small plot of Alice right beside alfalfa and adjacent to heavy cover so they hit it the moment they step out.

Heavy farm equipment has been run over it recently during haying of the alfalfa:

I like Alice because it doesn't get real tall:

Hard to see but if you look close you can see where they have been grazing it and nipping the tender tops off:

This plot is several years old and some grass is starting to invade but clover is well adapted to growing in and among grass.

This is a different plot that has gotten somewhat weedy:

I just clipped them for the first time June 22nd and will spray Select to kill grasses when they start to grow again.

This gives you some idea of the height I cut mine and I could have even clipped it a little higher.

White clover just doesn't get rank and tough like red clover or alfalfa, so it pretty much stays green, lush and palatable until cold weather. Clipping the tops off often is all that is needed.

If you have rich fertile soil with plenty of moisture such as Ghosts clover plot then growth may be so heavy that more frequent mowings may be needed.

Ghost shared this pic in another thread but it is perhaps some of the best clover I have ever seen.

Soil type can make a huge difference in fertility and moisture retention and that can vary widely on any given farm let alone across the state so everyone will have different maintenance requirements.

Types of clovers and alfalfa also require different mowing schedules but for white clover I would just clip the tops in early to mid September to encourage a flush of new growth by opening day.

Another trick is to give clover a shot of nitrogen, even though it is a legume it will make it very "happy" and encourage some sweet succulent growth. Urea is expensive so perhaps using some in a prime area or funnel spot. If you pick it up at a lawn care center remember not buy any with weed killer in it!! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

[huntdoc]

I have a small clover plot doing fairly well, does have some weed growth. It is remote and I have never mowed it, but the clover has no blossoms and lots of nipped off stems. If the deer do the mowing for me, is there any other reason to clip other than to knock back the weeds? Just wondered if the clover "needs" to be mowed back.

 

[dbltree]

Re: Clover - when to mow?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: huntdoc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a small clover plot doing fairly well, does have some weed growth. It is remote and I have never mowed it, but the clover has no blossoms and lots of nipped off stems. If the deer do the mowing for me, is there any other reason to clip other than to knock back the weeds? Just wondered if the clover "needs" to be mowed back. </div></div>

I wouldn't worry about clipping it if the deer are doing that for you, that's the advantage of white clover, it's pretty easy to maintain.

White clover has such a short height stature that it just doesn't usually get to a point where it just has to be mowed.


As I mentioned that depends a great deal on soil type because if it has all the right "stuff" it's going to grow too high and need to be clipped every so often.

If you have red clover in the mix, that's another story because it get's stemmy and rank.

I'd say yours isn't a problem right now at least. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

[dbltree]

Re: Clover - Using Select Herbicide

I sprayed Select 2 EC grass herbicide on some new clover seedings and some older clover stands that had brome and other grasses creeping back into them.

The new seeding has mostly foxtail and I could have gotten by with just mowing but wanted to test the Select on some of it.

I split a gallon with a friend which makes it a little more affordable because it can run nearly $140 a gallon. If you can't find any locally , PM nannyslayer and he can fix you right up /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

Select 2EC (Clethodium) is applied postemergence at 6-8 Fl oz. per acre.

Crop oil must be used with it at 1% of final spray solution.

I take a long a measuring cup so I don't have any guess work.

Most grasses the label suggests spraying at 2-8" so I mowed my older stand as noted in my previous post and waited for the regrowth before spraying.

2,4–DB Amine (Butyrac 200) can be tank mixed with Select at 2.0–6.0 pt per acre to control broadleaves but I'm not having a problem with them and I find them easy to control via clipping.

The Durana clover the end of June was doing very well, I took the following pics just before clipping these plots which happen to be in a tree planting and was sorely in need of having the weeds clipped. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/blush.gif /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

Close up of the Durana leaves...deer had been grazing it pretty hard and the strips were full of beds.

The Alice, Kopu 2 and Jumbo Ladino Clover mix from Welters

and some Grazer Alfalfa that I added to the mix (hard to see in all the clover...)

I planted new plots of the above mentioned clover seeds from Welters next to alfalfa and falcata alfalfa plots to compare pros and cons and see how clover stacks up to alfalfa.

I planted them all with Forage Oats from nannyslayer and added berseem clover as well.

It's all very thick and lush and doing very well

The oats are heading out now and I should mention the clover seed from Welters is two years old, having been left over from last year. If germination was affected...you could've fooled me!

but they served their purpose in acting as a nurse crop and providing early spring forage for deer.

I really love the Berseem Clover, it takes off quickly and can be noted by the longer slender leaves vs the rounder "cloverleaf" of the white clover.

Berseem is an annual clover that is often added to brand name mixes, however it is very inexpensive seed and you will end up paying 4-5 times it's value in a commercial mix.

Welters Berseem Clover seed is roughly $1.65 a # and they will sell it by the pound.

Welters White Clover seed will average $4 a pound and at 4 pounds per acre plus a pound of berseem your looking at a 20 dollar bill versus 40 bucks for a 1/2 worth from some seed companies.

I did like the Tecomate mix which was reasonably priced but it hasn't fared to well on the dry clay soil where I planted it and the other mixes.

Durana and Alice really shine under poor conditions, however if you have moist fertile clay soils then almost any of the clover mixes sold commercially will do great (price not withstanding...)


This is some mature red clover and you can see it get's much taller and ranker then white clover and requires several clippings to keep it palatable to deer.

Red clover is a better choice with alfalfa or managed alone IMO and nannyslayer has some resonably priced premium red clover seed available if you choose that route.

I like to add red clover with a fall rye plot or frost seed it into a brassica plot, previous soybean plot etc. It's a great source of nitrogen when plowed down and makes great hay if you have a farmer willing to bale it.

I'll post results of the Select spraying after it's had time to work and I have some more to do that I just mowed...stay tuned. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

This link is about managing weeds in alfalfa and clover is pretty much the same when it comes to dealing with herbicides.

Managing Weeds in Alfalfa

It provides more information about types and tank mixes and other "need to know" information before you fill the sprayer tank! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

 

[koba]

Re: Clover - Using Select Herbicide

Butyrac 200 & Crop Oil will kill the weeds !! This year i am probably Not gonna mow just weed whack the grasses, since Select is so EXPENSIVE !! Hey maybe i buy some BILLY GOATS !!

 

[dbltree]

Re: Clover - Using Select Herbicide

I mowed one Alice white clover plot on June 25th (see pic in previous posts) and took this pic on July 5th...amazing! Never had an ounce of fertilizer and poor dry ground to boot!

I sprayed Select on this plot because it has some grass working it's way in...

The grass appears to be about the right height however a successful kill will confirm that. I just wanted to have a reference as to how long after mowing can we spray? How quickly after mowing will clover recover?

Obviously white clover can recover very quickly and grasses may be ready to spray only a few days after mowing if there is suffcient moisture to encourage growth. 2-8" is what the Select label calls for and this grass is all of that so we'll see what happens.

There are lot's of great clover varieties out there but I have tried Alice on all types of soils and planted it sprig, summer fall and frost seeded it and never once...has it failed and did I mention...
deer love it! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

Alice Clover seed source

Barenburg White Clover Varieties

University Tests

Alice White Clover

Identify Pasture Legumes

I like to mix Alice and Kopu 2...

Ampac Newsletter - Alice and Kopu 2

 

[Crimson Arrows]

Re: Clover - Using Select Herbicide

Is it Ok to let weeds grow on a first year stand of clover? Seems they are growing great "under" the weeds and I didn't want to risk damaging the seedlings. Any Thoughts on whether I should mow or let it be?

 

[dbltree]

Re: Clover - Using Select Herbicide

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: huntyak</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is it Ok to let weeds grow on a first year stand of clover? Seems they are growing great "under" the weeds and I didn't want to risk damaging the seedlings. Any Thoughts on whether I should mow or let it be? </div></div>

Clover is able to survive quite well as an understory to grass...up to a point.

Your not going to damage your clover seedlings at this point but you also don't really need to actually cut the seedlings, clip the weeds above the clover.

Just don't wait until you have a mess like this... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/crazy.gif

You don't want to let those weeds go to seed and you also don't want to smother the clover when you mow it.

Surprisingly enough the clover actually survived that mess and looks real nice this year.

This is what a spring clover seeding should look like

I do have a couple spots where broadleafs are trying to become a problem

but we're going to mow and bale every thing in a few weeks which means no worries about smothering or weed seeds left behind.

I would think about clipping the tops of weeds in any new or established clover or alfalfa plots right now and perhaps a second clipping in late August or early September.