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Native Warm Season Grass

I have a TRICKY situation with some switchgrass...

I have AREAS amongst 40 acres that are SO sparse it's unreal- all established and planted the same way & at same time. Other areas as thick as can be. This is AFTER I reseeded them and sprayed with Atrazine- this was INTERSEEDING on established switch. The tricky part is some of the areas are on low lying crop land and other sparse areas on some slightly hilly stuff. SO- I don't think flooding is the problem. I am not sure if it could be soil quality? I noticed this recently- one thing it also COULD have been was thicker foxtail in these areas over the summer I just didn't notice (now it's under snow SO it just looks bare).

The reason I put under Native Grasses and not switchgrass- I am thinking of trying to add some Big Blue or possibly Indian to the bare areas. YET- one bare area was planted with some Indian and Big Blue and still very sparse.

QUESTIONS:

-Think it's a soil quality or areas that are too wet and NOTHING I could do will get them going? Can't figure out why these random spots are bare or sparse?!?!!?

-Should I let it go this year (last year was the frost seeding with Atrazine, etc (no atrazine on new Indian grass of course)) and just see what happens, maybe it will come in better???

-What would you do with these sparse areas? Let it go another year, plant to beans to start over, frost seed CIR/BB/Indian, more atrazine, plant to trees, etc, etc???? Maybe one type of NWSG would be a choice to try in my wierd circumstance?

-Lastly, I know that Alfalfa has auto-immune traits to kill new alfalfa and Switchgrass obviously does NOT but i have heard of this occuring in switchgrass, anyone else ever heard of such a thing (Osenbaugh's had mentioned this and toyed with idea of starting over)? I do also have black spots all over CIR- diseased?

Thanks a ton!!!!
 
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It sounds like to me some wildflowers are due on those thin areas, blazing star will grow on some of the poorest soils I have seen, also some purple and white prairie clover, slender bush clover and round headed bush clovers would be good choices. I have seen deer browse the clovers for sure...not sure about the blazing stars.
 
The black spots are normal and on all of my switch so no worries there Skip. Since it's first year I suspect that some of it will come up this year and may have been held back by foxtail which was difficult to control with all the heavy rains we had.

No reason you couldn't try some other tallgrass or wildflowers though, you might even consider some eastern gamagrass in that low ground. Perfect place for EG and you can still use atrazine on it.

You could try almost anything or try different things in different spots too. If we get a melt so we can look at it better I'll stop over and we'll go for a walk...;)
 
This next winter I'm planning on venturing in my first NWSG planting. As some of you may have seen in another thread I have a 22 acre field that will most likely be planted in beans next year to work with. I plan leaving 5 acres for additional food plots but with the remaining I would like to plant half to a quality short/tall grass mix and the half to solid CIR switch. My concern is the switch eventually becoming established in the mix and dominating. Any thoughts on how this will work out? My goal is to provide some quality upland bird habitat as well as some good winter cover for deer.
 
Nontypcl1 said:
This next winter I'm planning on venturing in my first NWSG planting. As some of you may have seen in another thread I have a 22 acre field that will most likely be planted in beans next year to work with. I plan leaving 5 acres for additional food plots but with the remaining I would like to plant half to a quality short/tall grass mix and the half to solid CIR switch. My concern is the switch eventually becoming established in the mix and dominating. Any thoughts on how this will work out? My goal is to provide some quality upland bird habitat as well as some good winter cover for deer.
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If your concerned about switchgrass spreading to the "mixed" area it won't.

Indiangrass and Big Bluestem will both spread via windblown seed because they are "fluffy" and easily blown around.

My stands are 15 years old now and Indiangrass is rapidly taking over the pure CIR stands and Big Bluestem is also popping up everywhere.

Long term the short grasses will not survive planted with the tall grasses and IMO they are better off planted seperately out left out of a NWSG mix.
Little Bluestem is a favorite of mine and would work wel with many wildflowers but the tall grasses smother it and it can't compete long term. ;)
 
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Dbltree... This is an area that we clear cut and then transplanted 8 year old white spruce into... my plan is to next plant some little bluestem inbetween the trees to make it more of a bedding area... I would have liked to plant CIR but some of the trees are pretty small yet and I dont want the tall CIR to choke them out... I know that you say not to mix tree plantings and NWSG, but I cant have just bare ground inbetween the trees or the deer wont bed there... Plus can you imagine these spruce trees with NWSG inbetween them?? MONEY!!!
I Thought that as for burning the NWSG I would mow the grass right before I burn it so that the flames wouldnt be as high and hopefully wont kill my trees... what are your thoughts on that?
I will only leave the little bluestem for a few years (until the trees are bigger and I can plant CIR)
also what is the seeding rate for little bluestem?



 
IQDM said:
I Thought that as for burning the NWSG I would mow the grass right before I burn it so that the flames wouldnt be as high and hopefully wont kill my trees... what are your thoughts on that?
http://iowawhitetail.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=786&c=9
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Ummmm...I could take a picture of either my place OR my neighbors place, both with scorched/fried conifers leftover from separate burns last spring. I inadvertantly killed off various volunteer cedars on my place, so no big whoop, but my neighbor had planted dozens of nice conifers, spruces, etc, and he fried all of those accidentally. I personally think you are really asking for your good conifers to get killed by some future fire episode if you mix them that way.
 
I agree with Dave, I think your asking for trouble! A better bet is to interplant fast growing shrubs inbetween the conifers. The shrubs will provide far better and more attractive bedding then any NWSG and you won't have to worry about burns destroying all your hard work.

If you feel that Little Bluestem is the way you want to go then plant it at 7-9#'s of PLS per acre...
 
what sort of fast growing shrubs would you suggest to make this area more of a bedding area?
 
IQDM said:
what sort of fast growing shrubs would you suggest to make this area more of a bedding area?
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Here's a link to some ideas and I have lots more pics, ideas and nurseries to choose from in the Tree Planting thread.

Iowa Seedling Catalog

Depends on your soil type but most of the dogwoods, nannyberry, ninebark, hazlenuts, wild plum and high bush cranberries all work well...:)
 
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EASTERN GAMAGRASS?!?!? What's you folks' experience with it? Now, I know it's a large seed that should be planted 1-1&1/2 inches down!?!? Think I could ever get away with frost seeding it, obviously that makes me nervous being that big- thoughts??? It would be interseeded in some other thin NWSG areas.

How has you guys' stands of Eastern Gamagrass turned out? Awesome cover?
 
Sligh1 said:
EASTERN GAMAGRASS?!?!? What's you folks' experience with it? Now, I know it's a large seed that should be planted 1-1&1/2 inches down!?!? Think I could ever get away with frost seeding it, obviously that makes me nervous being that big- thoughts??? It would be interseeded in some other thin NWSG areas.

How has you guys' stands of Eastern Gamagrass turned out? Awesome cover?
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Hopefully letemgrow will post back because he actually has some. I will be planting some but it does have to "planted" unlike switchgrass so one can't just throw it out there.

A corn planter works great but then you have to stratify it first because it is VERY dormant seed! I posted some pics and info earlier in this thread but Shepherd Farms has stratified seed so one can plant it with a planter in the spring.

I'm going to hand plant mine this winter when we have a winter warm spell and let Nature do the rest.

EG is awesome stuff and I have always wanted to plant some! You can use atrazine, simazine and Panoramic herbicides to get it established.

Here's the link to Shepherd Farms :

Shepherd Farms

If your serious about EG and want to deal with someone who knows this stuff inside and out..Call Shepherd Farms! When I inquired they were very helpful!

One thing a little different about EG is they say deer love to eat the stuff too...so might not want it right next to the road...;)


EG Plant Guide

About Shepherd Farms

Panoramic Herbicide Label

EG article in MO Conservationist

EG establishment guide

Optimum Planting Procedures for Eastern Gamagrass
 
Looks like a bargain if you can get it done for $65/acre (plus atrazine, etc). Obviously this stuff comes back year after year right?!? I think I'd like to put some of this in, might wait another year BUT it's on my agenda for sure! Thanks for above info, really good stuff!
 
An individual gama grass plant may last 70 years if properly cared for. Their roots have air passages in them which supposibly allow for better hard clay pan penetration and to recovery quickly from flooded waters.

I doubt you would get much of a stand by broadcasting since it is such a large seed. I hand collected several pounds from remnant stands this past summer/fall and sent a sample off to be analyzed for germination percentage. It has been sitting in my fridge in damp peat since fall so hopefully I get a high number. If not, them maybe it was collected too early.

All mine will be hand planted in rows so I can select for traits I want more of, such as color, vigor, seed production and forage production. I will be fertilizing the gama along the roadsides this spring so when the DOT mows them, I will still be able to collect seeds later on. They got me on a few places last year when the gama was mowed right at seed collection time. :D
 
I like to use this photo as a reference, this is poor soil along a roadside where the cool season grass does not grow well and you can still see how good the gama grass is doing there. I collected several seeds off this plant from July-September. That is the one downfall I see to gama, the seeds mature periodically over a long period so harvest can be tricky.

untitled1.jpg
 
I'm going to re-post some great info from NWSG test plots done at the SE Iowa ISU Research Farm...simply because many of you wonder why frost seed even the non-dormant fluffy natives??

The following will give evidence that dormant seedings of NWSG will help landowners establish a stand much quicker then late spring or summer seedings....;)

Native Grass Establishment Demonstration Plots

Greg Brenneman, Ext. Ag Engineering Spec.
Kevin Van Dee, Farm Superintendent

Introduction

Current CRP programs have emphasized the use of warm season native grasses. In the early 1990’s a variety trial of different species and varieties of native grasses was established at the SE Research and Demonstration farm by NRCS staff. These plots have been very useful for landowners to see the growth characteristics of the different varieties. However, landowners have had many questions on what a seeding should look like during the establishment years. The project goal was to compare different seeding times and weed control methods in the establishment of native grasses.

Methods

In the fall of 2001, a plot area previously in corn was laid out for seeding to native grasses over the following 3 years. One third of the plot area was seeded each year. The remainder of the plot area was planted to soybeans until the year it was seeded to native grasses. This resulted in native grasses being established in 2002, 2003, and 2004.

Each year’s seeding was further subdivided into a late fall dormant seeding (late November – early December), a early spring frost seeding (late February – early March), and a late spring seeding (mid May – early June).

A diverse mix of native grasses and forbs (wild flowers) was used in each seeding. The primary grasses used were big bluestem, Indian grass, switchgrass, little bluestem, side oats gramma, and Canada wild rye. All of the seeding was done by broadcasting the seed on the surface. If disking needed to be done in the late spring for weed control, those plots were packed with a roller after seeding.

During the establishment year, each of the planting times was split and 4.0 oz/acre of Plateau herbicide was applied to one-half of each plot for control of annual weeds. In addition, during the establishment year, the plots were mowed 1 or 2 times for weed control.

Results

While each seeding time resulted in the establishment of native grasses, there were noticeable differences in the density and composition of the stands.

The fall dormant seeding and early spring frost seeding usually resulted in a more complete stand in the first year.
The fall dormant seedings also had greater variety and density of forbs observed in the first and second year.

With the late spring seeding, it was often the second or third year before a full stand of native grasses was established.

The primary weed challenges were heavy stands of giant foxtail along with field pennycress, common lambsquarter, and marestail. The use of Plateau provided good to excellent control of giant foxtail into mid or late summer depending on the year. This usually allowed full establishment of the native grasses with seed head production in the first year. Where Plateau was used, it was often noted that there was a greater density of native grasses and a lower density forbs in the second or third year.
A heavy stand of marestail was often seen in the second growing season.
Very little marestail was seen after the second growing season.

These plots were used as a part of 8 different public and interagency field days with a total attendance of over 200. The plots will be maintained for observation for the next several years.
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I want to make sure that everyone understands that even though fluffies are not dormant, the seed is naturally dropped in late fall and lays on the ground thru the winter and germinates in the spring.

Dormant seeding is the natural way to seed and the ISU tests results are proof positive that dormant seedings result in a successful stand in one year versus 2-3 years for summer seedings.

Landowners of course are free to choose any method of planting but reccomending the poorest method to others is unfair and unwise advice.

Dormant seeding is not only the most effective but least expensive method that is also the most successful! Note that all of the seed was merely broadcasted...something any landowner can do without using expensive equipment.

In the case of fluffies a special broadcaster or fluffy drill will make the job easier but they can be rented at minimal fees...:way:
 
Broadcasting in winter works great!! Here is some big blue that I scattered by hand in fescue sod I sprayed and killed earlier that fall. Never did a thing to it after I scatter seeded it.

You can easily see the section on the left hand side where I did not spray/broadcast the big blue.

big_bluestem.jpg
 
Looks nice Letemgrow !!!!!!!

OK guys,,,,,,,,,
I'm looking for ideas. Took a walk today and noticed that my grass waterways, which are mostly canary grass
and some other cool season grasses are pretty
well nocked down and laying flat.

As you can see in the attached picture, (The grasses to the right and
left are my CRP WSG's).

waterway2.jpg


I was thinking of mowing this summer, probably would spray
a few times as that canary can be tough to kill, get a good late
fall spraying and hope I get a good kill.
Then I would probably frost seed next winter.
I'm thinking of switch and Big Blue, as then I could spray
with simazine or atrazine.
My concern would be, am I asking for trouble trying to seed in a waterway.
Some springs hardly any water flowing and some years
it can be as wide as the picture and flowing pretty swiftly.
Anyone have experience with this type of situation??????

Thanks, Tom
 
Tom...I have found that by spraying and not illing the dead sod and roots hold the soil until the NWSG gets established. I did a whole series of waterways that are very steep and all on HEL land with no problems at all.

I would wait til late summer so that you are past the spring rains and it should be fine.

You might consider a combination of Oust XP and crop oil and roundup to kill the RDC...that is a wicked combination that switch and big bluestem can tolerate. Works best if that combination is applied in the fall, then use the atrazine/simazine/gly combo in the spring before May 10th and you'll be good to go!

Great pic and example of why we need to replace coolseasons with WSG!!

Letemgrow...great example of dormant seeding!!:way:
 
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