medicsnoke
Member
Dbltree,
Ok sorry if Im beating a dead horse. But Im itching to plan something, anything to provide soft edge along the roadways and field edges on my farm. The areas I want this in is currently an old hay crop. Is their any kind of medium to tall grass that I can palnt having not done soil preperation last fall?
dbltree
Super Moderator
I assume you are referring to native grasses and not something like Egyptian Wheat? Remember it can take up to three years to establish a good stand of native grass and in most cases it will not get tall enough to screen from the road....cedars are far better for that purpose.
If you want to establish NWSG you must prepare by killing the sod first...unless of course you like throwing money away. It's not "soil" prep that needs to be done...it's about killing the sod grass first and that is an iffy proposition trying to do that in the spring and establish natives at the same time.
You'll have to get it killed with glyphosate and panoramic and then use a NWSG drill to no-till drill it in....if you are prepared to do all of that I'll elaborate...
http://extension.agron.iastate.edu/NPKnowledge/soiltemphistory.html
Map showing soil temps across Iowa. With this weather, I am concerned things will be popping up earlier than normal. Just something I'm watching just in case it seems to be a bit earlier spring/summer this year.
Map showing soil temps across Iowa. With this weather, I am concerned things will be popping up earlier than normal. Just something I'm watching just in case it seems to be a bit earlier spring/summer this year.
OneCam
Well-Known Member
Thanks Skip ...
I have a few burns originally planned for the first part of May to maximize effectiveness.
Does anyone have suggestions regarding how to identify the best time to burn (CIR) this year?
Fire isn't going to hurt NWSG's so if you burnt a little too late, not that big of deal. On the other hand, spraying round-up "too late" is the end of native grasses if much is up. I am moving my stuff up ONE MONTH most likely this year. I am spraying my round-up early April, maybe April 1 if this weather continues. heck, if it really continues, maybe even sooner! Burning, I think I'd be burning mid-april. Most the cool seasons are up and most the NWSG's hopefully won't be up yet BUT who knows. Watch these soil temps!!!! The thing folks need to really watch is spraying round-up too late!!!!!
dbltree
Super Moderator
Thanks for posting the link Skip...I'll just add a few thoughts on the subject :way:
When to burn....when to spray??
This time of year I am often asked about the timing for burning and spraying NWSG but weather is the key factor and the timing of either burning or spraying is largely dependent on soil temps.
Burning...
Native warm season grasses are WARM season grasses that regardless if established or a new seeding come up far later then cool seasons like brome or fescue. Burning to early then, encourages the cool seasons to explode to life long before the native grasses and that defeats the purpose. Burning should be timed so that it occurs just before or just as the NWSG is ready or starting to emerge. ***NOTE*** do not burn new seedings! Wait 2-3 years for the plants to become fully established before burning!
In the mid west typically late April to early May would be optimum burn times but this year with unusual record temps, that time may very well be several weeks earlier. It's the middle of March, 80 degrees and this field of brome grass (cool season) is already growing!
If one wanted to burn that field...now would be the time but with native grass it is still too early and it defeats the purpose if we encourage the cool season grasses to grow before the natives are ready. Time the burn so that the natives will emerge at the same time as the cool seasons and dominate them.
Spraying...
Spraying a new dormant seeding or established NWSG stand also requires careful observation when weather warms abnormally early, typically a glyphosate can be applied well into mid to late April with no worries that the NWSG plants will have emerged, but this year is different!
NWSG seed may begin to germinate when soils are consistently at 65 degrees for 5 or more days and established NWSG will emerge before then so watch soil temps in your area and spray before NWSG might emerge.
This soil temp map (or one like it in your area) allows us to keep an eye on things and be prepared to take action before it's too late.
4 inch soil temp maps
Note that the cool season brome is well on it's way and soils are only in the 50's
That allows us to spray a herbicide cocktail of glyphosate and Panoramic/Plateau to kill cool seasons before the NWSG emerges. In the case of switchgrass alone, use gly and atrazine or simazine.
I Iowa typically dormant seeded switchgrass could be sprayed with gly and atrazine all the way up to May 10th but if abnormally warm temps continue, the switch seed will germinate long before them.
Those are just some cautions to be aware of and there are of course other options and exceptions but at the very least...don't nuke your new NWSG seeding based on previous "time/date" factors...watch the weather and act accordingly....
When to burn....when to spray??
This time of year I am often asked about the timing for burning and spraying NWSG but weather is the key factor and the timing of either burning or spraying is largely dependent on soil temps.
Burning...
Native warm season grasses are WARM season grasses that regardless if established or a new seeding come up far later then cool seasons like brome or fescue. Burning to early then, encourages the cool seasons to explode to life long before the native grasses and that defeats the purpose. Burning should be timed so that it occurs just before or just as the NWSG is ready or starting to emerge. ***NOTE*** do not burn new seedings! Wait 2-3 years for the plants to become fully established before burning!
In the mid west typically late April to early May would be optimum burn times but this year with unusual record temps, that time may very well be several weeks earlier. It's the middle of March, 80 degrees and this field of brome grass (cool season) is already growing!
If one wanted to burn that field...now would be the time but with native grass it is still too early and it defeats the purpose if we encourage the cool season grasses to grow before the natives are ready. Time the burn so that the natives will emerge at the same time as the cool seasons and dominate them.
Spraying...
Spraying a new dormant seeding or established NWSG stand also requires careful observation when weather warms abnormally early, typically a glyphosate can be applied well into mid to late April with no worries that the NWSG plants will have emerged, but this year is different!
NWSG seed may begin to germinate when soils are consistently at 65 degrees for 5 or more days and established NWSG will emerge before then so watch soil temps in your area and spray before NWSG might emerge.
This soil temp map (or one like it in your area) allows us to keep an eye on things and be prepared to take action before it's too late.
4 inch soil temp maps
Note that the cool season brome is well on it's way and soils are only in the 50's
That allows us to spray a herbicide cocktail of glyphosate and Panoramic/Plateau to kill cool seasons before the NWSG emerges. In the case of switchgrass alone, use gly and atrazine or simazine.
I Iowa typically dormant seeded switchgrass could be sprayed with gly and atrazine all the way up to May 10th but if abnormally warm temps continue, the switch seed will germinate long before them.
Those are just some cautions to be aware of and there are of course other options and exceptions but at the very least...don't nuke your new NWSG seeding based on previous "time/date" factors...watch the weather and act accordingly....
rackhunter
Member
Atrazine spraying
How long before a rain does Atrazine have to be applied to work. Lets say i spray at 2pm and it rains early evening. Would this be ok?
How long before a rain does Atrazine have to be applied to work. Lets say i spray at 2pm and it rains early evening. Would this be ok?
showstopper
PMA Member
If I am doing a heavy dose of atrizine do I still need to do a treatment of gly? Does atrizine only work as a pre-emergent? Thanks for the help!
dbltree
Super Moderator
Atrazine will be more effective once you get a rain to help incorporate it into the soil surface so sooner is better.
Atrazine is not very effective as a post emergence herbicide so that's why adding gly is more effective to kill existing vegetation and then the atrazine will help keep weeds seeds from germinating.
Keep in mind here that atrazine is only safe on Big Bluestem and switchgrass so can NOT be used on a NWSG mix containing Indiangrass and Little Bluestem
showstopper
PMA Member
Thanks, I posted in the wrong title as I am talking about my frost seeded switchgrass. Thanks for the info, my dad is trying to get me to skip on spraying both gly and atrazine altogether. I think I have him talked in to doing them in the same mixture so we don't have to clean out the sprayer twice. Is there anything I should know about mixing these two together and spraying in one batch or will this work? Thanks again for the help!
U can mix Atrazine & Round-up together with no issues. with the low cost of Round-up & extra insurance, I like putting it on heavy. Like 2 qts + to acre & depending on what I'm doing/timing/killing. Heck, 2 qts to acre is $5/acre! Can't beat that! I also put the max of Atrazine on as well. If your state allows it, I'd do 4 qts of Atrazine per acre. Mix em together and get going. Keep in mind that u will want to circulate your tank & keep it agitated, Atrazine is sticky & goopie stuff, make sure it's mixed really well and you keep agitating it of course.
showstopper
PMA Member
Good to know. Thanks again Sligh!
Crimson Arrows
Well-Known Member
What effect does Atrazine have on success rates of first year stands vs no -atrazine? Is it night and day or just " a little" better per any of your experience?
I am more curious than anything as we are establishing some SG and will have it put on but curious as to your results through the years or what you have seen. Thanks :way:
I am more curious than anything as we are establishing some SG and will have it put on but curious as to your results through the years or what you have seen. Thanks :way:
Huge difference!!! If you look WAY back on this thread, Dbltree took some pics of my 1st year switch that was chest high, etc. I put the Atrazine on as heavy as I could. If a guy didn't use atrazine, would want to keep it mowed & also would have a lot of weeds in there. 2nd year probably would be decent/good stand depending on how well you kept up with mowing & weeds. In EITHER case you want to watch for foxtail as well- in the case of foxtail with Atrazine, it USUALLY comes in (from what I've seen) when a guy hasn't put enough Atrazine down BUT sometimes it's just a problem anyways, which you can spray the Foxtail with other herbicides. Dbltree may have some things to add, etc but that's been my experience/thoughts.
dbltree
Super Moderator
As Skip mentions...controlling weed competition the first year can mean having a head high stand the first year versus waiting three years for it to reach that point.
The only problem with atrazine or simazine is that they are not very effective on trash covered surfaces, so clean mowed surfaces will have better weed control.
If foxtail still becomes a problem, use Drive 75 or Paramount (same product) post emergence to kill the foxtail. See first page of this thread for more herbicide details...
The only problem with atrazine or simazine is that they are not very effective on trash covered surfaces, so clean mowed surfaces will have better weed control.
If foxtail still becomes a problem, use Drive 75 or Paramount (same product) post emergence to kill the foxtail. See first page of this thread for more herbicide details...
Crimson Arrows
Well-Known Member
Thanks Paul and Skip...very helpful :way:
LoessHillsArcher
PMA Member
Properly taken care of should last forever!
Prairie likes fire... most natural way to manage a NWSG stand.
I was talking with Osenbaugh the other day- he was referring to big blue stem as a "100 year grass" - as in a plant will live 100 yrs if taken care of and on good conditions. Of course above is right that it'll last forever if properly maintained because of reseeding itself. Soil types and sites are major factors though, obviously. Osenbaugh also mentioned Indian grass only living 5 years if not on ideal spots. He claimed u want clay and if it's planted on black soil (great for most others) it will last about 5 yrs. he of course has a lot more information, experience and specifics on all that. Paraphrasing.
Last edited: