Better put up the link http://www.realworldwhitetails.com/store/seed.php
dbltree
Super Moderator
It appears to be a native grass mix rather then pure switchgrass and I suspect you would find the same native grass seed for less by buying direct from someone like John Osenbaugh or Welter Seed.
people put fancy names on seed and up the price but that doesn't make it any better....
Here's my situation...
1. approx. twelve acres ws planted in RR Soybeans last spring. Ground looks good...weed free..very little thatch. Beans WILL NOT be harvested.
2. Would like to plant Cave-in-Rock Switchgrass...BUT...I need something slightly more economical. I read about the other varieties and all I can find info on is the Biomass yield which I'm not concerned about. I'm located in Eastern South Dakota so I need a species that is tolerant to our weather. What would be my next choice beside the CIR.
3. Would like to use a four-wheeler and spreader but if I do this in February i'm not sure if the snow will allow the use of a spreader. ALSO this area is right next to the Big Sioux River which has left it's banks in the spring and I don't want all that potential money in seed washed down the river. We may have to pay a guy to drill it in like we've done in the past. Without this cold stratification I'm assuming this is why it typically takes us three years before we see a decent stand of grass.
4. What's the going rate for atrazine now?? approximately??
I've got an applicators license.
Thanks for your help..I'll post pics of the progress as we go along.
Ryan
1. approx. twelve acres ws planted in RR Soybeans last spring. Ground looks good...weed free..very little thatch. Beans WILL NOT be harvested.
2. Would like to plant Cave-in-Rock Switchgrass...BUT...I need something slightly more economical. I read about the other varieties and all I can find info on is the Biomass yield which I'm not concerned about. I'm located in Eastern South Dakota so I need a species that is tolerant to our weather. What would be my next choice beside the CIR.
3. Would like to use a four-wheeler and spreader but if I do this in February i'm not sure if the snow will allow the use of a spreader. ALSO this area is right next to the Big Sioux River which has left it's banks in the spring and I don't want all that potential money in seed washed down the river. We may have to pay a guy to drill it in like we've done in the past. Without this cold stratification I'm assuming this is why it typically takes us three years before we see a decent stand of grass.
4. What's the going rate for atrazine now?? approximately??
I've got an applicators license.
Thanks for your help..I'll post pics of the progress as we go along.
Ryan
Lickcreek,
I came across this on another forum. This guy is planting switchgrass and talked to the maker of the Truax drill, his advice was to plant at a much lower rate than 5 pounds per acre. Any thoughts on that? I would guess there are other opinions but you are advising what you have had success with in the past. Here is the quote-----
Jim then said, "Ed you are planting Cave In Rock switch grass for cover for deer and this changes the picture quite a bit. Switch grass grows in clumps and grows aggresivly once it gets established. Cave In Rock is the most aggresive switch grass available and needs special consideration". Jim then discribed these special considerations. "You want these clumps to grow large in size and spread apart to allow deer to move easily within your field. If the seeding is too thick, deer and also you Ed will have a very difficult time moving about in these fields". They will bed in the field but near the edges and not move about very much and that's not what you want, since you told me that you intend to plant a long winding 48 foot wide strip of a variety of forage within this switch grass field.. I advise absolutely no more than 2 1/2 lbs of Cave In Rock per acre in poorer soils and at low as 1 lb per acre for the better soils".
Any thoughts?
I came across this on another forum. This guy is planting switchgrass and talked to the maker of the Truax drill, his advice was to plant at a much lower rate than 5 pounds per acre. Any thoughts on that? I would guess there are other opinions but you are advising what you have had success with in the past. Here is the quote-----
Jim then said, "Ed you are planting Cave In Rock switch grass for cover for deer and this changes the picture quite a bit. Switch grass grows in clumps and grows aggresivly once it gets established. Cave In Rock is the most aggresive switch grass available and needs special consideration". Jim then discribed these special considerations. "You want these clumps to grow large in size and spread apart to allow deer to move easily within your field. If the seeding is too thick, deer and also you Ed will have a very difficult time moving about in these fields". They will bed in the field but near the edges and not move about very much and that's not what you want, since you told me that you intend to plant a long winding 48 foot wide strip of a variety of forage within this switch grass field.. I advise absolutely no more than 2 1/2 lbs of Cave In Rock per acre in poorer soils and at low as 1 lb per acre for the better soils".
Any thoughts?
letemgrow
PMA Member
The clump forming nwsg's create a lot of screening cover even if they do not form a pure stand. You would be suprised at the screening cover provided by a field that is only 50% nwsg.
Personally, for bedding cover, I would not want 100% switch. I would rather have 50% along with some beneficial forbes to provide added cover and browse for deer and other wildlife.
Personally, for bedding cover, I would not want 100% switch. I would rather have 50% along with some beneficial forbes to provide added cover and browse for deer and other wildlife.
dbltree
Super Moderator
I think either one will do the trick in your area and both should get plenty tall enough.
I get in some heated debates over this subject from time to time but after 15 years of observing deer in my switchgrass I can tell you there is no such thing as "too thick".
Thick stands of native grasses make it impossible for people to see deer moving in them bringing about the assumption that deer cannot or will not move around or bed in it which is just absolute nonsense.
I have hilly ground and from some of my stands I can observe deer slipping thru my switch planted at 5-6#'s per acre. They dissappear often within seconds in the tall switch but they move about in it freely.
The tall CIR in fact has made it difficult to hunt deer simply because they have adapted to it's safety that the tall dense stands provide and they often tend to avoid the timber where they inevitably get shot at.
Having said all that, I will add that while mature bucks love to bed in my switchgrass because of the solitude, deer in general prefer the thick bedding areas I have created via hinge cutting.
So how do I know they wouldn't prefer thin clumpy areas that are easy to walk thru? Due to my poor soils I have some places just like that and they avoid those thin sparce areas like the plague! They choose instead the thick dense areas where they are completey hidden.
People don't understand what they can't see, so because they can't see deer in the thick stands, they assume they are not there. In areas with low deer density, small numbers of deer will not make well worn runways but instead will just filter thru the native grass, unseen leaving no trace they have even been there.
Switchgrass along with other natives provides a screen but NO natives will ever compete with natural thickets and hinged tree tops along ridges where deer can see danger. This is thier natural environment and with the exception of mature whitetails they will almost always choose these bedding areas over nativegrass.
Plant switch at lower rates and most people will have problems with invasive and worthless plants like goldenrod, brome and fescue invading and taking over.
Almost on a daily basis I am able to watch whitetails slipping in and out of field of switchgrass using it's protective screening to travel from feeding to cover...it's awesome stuff, but it will never ever replace natural brushy, woody habitat in regards to bedding....
Do you think that we'd be better off drilling in May in a floodplain, or broadcasting as soon as flood waters recede?? I'd really like to try frost seeding but can't risk thousands of dollars worth of seed floating downriver. So how much of a cold stratification does switch need? as in ...would it work to broadcast as soon as flood waters go down?? The river typically isn't high for very long.
Or can you buy seed already stratified.
Or can you buy seed already stratified.
dbltree
Super Moderator
The best bet would be to try and buy year old seed because the older it gets, the more it breaks dormancy on it's own.
Cold wet weather is required to stratify, while freezing thawing helps incorporate seed to make soil/seed contact so in your case i would just get it on as early as possible.
Dormancy issues vary widely but worst case is that some of it may not germinate until the following year and best case it may not be a problem at all.
Check around for older seed first...
Lickcreek,
My farm is very near your property, I am just south of Fairfield, I will be ordering switchgrass soon. I have found a seed dealer about 300 miles SW of my property but the cave-in-rock seed is $3.50 per pound cheaper than Osenbaugh's. Do you think I would be better off with Osenbaugh's due to the seed coming from the same area as my farm or do you think the other company would be close enough. I am doing about 20 acres so the price difference is several hundred dollars, but more than price doing it right is number 1 priority.
My farm is very near your property, I am just south of Fairfield, I will be ordering switchgrass soon. I have found a seed dealer about 300 miles SW of my property but the cave-in-rock seed is $3.50 per pound cheaper than Osenbaugh's. Do you think I would be better off with Osenbaugh's due to the seed coming from the same area as my farm or do you think the other company would be close enough. I am doing about 20 acres so the price difference is several hundred dollars, but more than price doing it right is number 1 priority.
whitetail fanatic
Member
dbltree, does first year Cave in Rock Switchgrass have less "standability" in snow than 2 year or older established CIR SG? Our first year planting which I sent you pictures of and you posted on this thread (in August I believe) was at least 5 feet tall and very thick. On Tuesday and Wednesday of this week we got 10 inches of heavy snow, and a lot of the SG is now laying down under the snow. Out of the total area, I'd estimate that about half of the SG is down and half is up. I knew some would be down from that much heavy snow, but I thought 80 percent of more would still be standing. I haven't looked very close yet, but do you think the stalks broke off and it is down for good or if we get some warmer weather will it stand back up? Sorry I don't have any pictures to show.
Another question, we have 4.5 acres of open field that we were planning on frost seeding CIR SG this winter. The field was mowed and sprayed with glyphosate this fall so it is ready to go. After reading some of your recent posts here and on the QDM switchgrass thread, I'm wondering if we should plant several varieties of shrubs and apple trees instead of the switchgrass. You say that deer prefer the brushy habitat types more than SG for bedding, so that is why I'm beginning to wonder if we should try to convert this area into a brushy type habitat. I've noticed that deer really like to bed under and around apple trees once they get big enough because the overhead branches get very thick and provide great screening cover. Planting more shrubs between the apple trees would also help thicken it up. I want to create the best bedding area possible so more mature bucks will bed there. If the area was off limits during the gun season, would more deer and/or bucks bed there if it was brushy with apple trees and other shrubs, or would more bed there if it was CIR SG?
Thanks again!
Another question, we have 4.5 acres of open field that we were planning on frost seeding CIR SG this winter. The field was mowed and sprayed with glyphosate this fall so it is ready to go. After reading some of your recent posts here and on the QDM switchgrass thread, I'm wondering if we should plant several varieties of shrubs and apple trees instead of the switchgrass. You say that deer prefer the brushy habitat types more than SG for bedding, so that is why I'm beginning to wonder if we should try to convert this area into a brushy type habitat. I've noticed that deer really like to bed under and around apple trees once they get big enough because the overhead branches get very thick and provide great screening cover. Planting more shrubs between the apple trees would also help thicken it up. I want to create the best bedding area possible so more mature bucks will bed there. If the area was off limits during the gun season, would more deer and/or bucks bed there if it was brushy with apple trees and other shrubs, or would more bed there if it was CIR SG?
Thanks again!
dbltree
Super Moderator
Mine always comes back up even after heavy ice and snow as does all of the neighboring fields but maybe you got a humdinger and it won't recover? 15 years mine has alway stood back up...
If you have lots of switch already I would consider at least a couple acres of shrubs or perhaps a perimeter of shrubs and switch in the middle.
I like a mix of red cedars and shrubs but spruce may work well in your area. If you decide to go that route, switch gears and head on over to the Tree Planting thread and will hash over the possibles there...
dbltree
Super Moderator
For those that are looking for switchgrass seed...check around, then give John at Praire Seed Farms a call...a friend just picked up some Cave In Rock seed for $8.75 which is pretty reasonable compared to other sources I am aware of.
The web site may not always reflect current pricing but it will give you the ph # to call.
Prairie Seed Farms
Hard to beat the quality of Johns seed but competition is always good, so if you have recent price quotes please share.
Just make sure you discuss PLS so you know our comparing apples to apples.
The web site may not always reflect current pricing but it will give you the ph # to call.
Prairie Seed Farms
Hard to beat the quality of Johns seed but competition is always good, so if you have recent price quotes please share.
Just make sure you discuss PLS so you know our comparing apples to apples.
dbltree
Super Moderator
I have had great luck anytime betwen mid January to mid March but earlier seems to work better. I think it depends on the seed with fresh seed being more dormant that older seed.
Usually a minimum of 30 days of "wet chill" is required so if one dormant seeds late and we get a warm dry spring then you miss out on the cold wet weather required for stratification.
I would say anytime after the first of the year when there is minimal or no snow cover would be good.:way:
Nontypcl1
Member
I've been thinkn about planting some CIR switch for the past couple years but haven't gotten around to doing so. Maybe the avg of $13+ per lb may have had something to do with that I haven't contacted them yet but at $8.75/lb from prairie seed farms I think I might just have to purchase some. I've got a 22 acre area which is currently mostly brome with a little alfalfa left that I am planning on rotating into something else. I've been leaning towards NWGS with about 6 acres of solid CIR along the timbered edge. The problem is it is still on lease thru next summer. I really don't want to pass up a good price on CIR but I'm concerned about its viability if I hold it over for a year.
So what would you guys do? Buy now and store it till next winter or hold out and hope for a good price later on?
I haven't contacted them yet but at $8.75/lb from prairie seed farms I think I might just have to purchase some. I've got a 22 acre area which is currently mostly brome with a little alfalfa left that I am planning on rotating into something else. I've been leaning towards NWGS with about 6 acres of solid CIR along the timbered edge. The problem is it is still on lease thru next summer. I really don't want to pass up a good price on CIR but I'm concerned about its viability if I hold it over for a year. So what would you guys do? Buy now and store it till next winter or hold out and hope for a good price later on?
whitetail fanatic
Member
"Mine always comes back up even after heavy ice and snow as does all of the neighboring fields but maybe you got a humdinger and it won't recover? 15 years mine has alway stood back up...
It's been almost two weeks since that heavy snow and we've had a few days around 30 to 33 degrees but no really warm days. That CIR hasn't stood back up anymore yet. If it was going to stand back up would it be up by now or does it need to get warmer and really melt a lot of it? There is still a lot of snow on top of the CIR in the places where it fell over from that storm which is about 50% of the area.
When I get time I will try to post more on this topic on the tree planting thread. We have tons of thick brushy areas and overgrown CRP on this farm which is excellent cover and bedding areas. Also, we have planted thousands and thousands of white spruce with close to 100% success rate, how did you guess dbltree?? They grow like weeds here, no site prep no nothing, just plant and forget them. I was suprised to hear that you have so much trouble with spruce in your area, but then again maybe not. I have hunted Iowa and only wish Wisconsin had the hunting season structure Iowa does to produce the great numbers of mature bucks in your state! I wish we had that problem with so many big bucks rubbing all our trees! We actuallly have more trouble with red cedar that grows so well for you, they love to browse the red cedar. Don't they browse the heck out of it there? I guess it doesnt' help that we have a lot of deer winter on our area with the food plots and great cover, they really browse the small red cedars to death. I will try to get more pictures sometime (maybe for the tree planting thread too), but I will send you one that I already have that shows the area I was talking about frost seeding CIR this winter. It is surrounded on 3 sides by white spruce (which you can see in the picture) with thick brush growing in between. I posted this earlier last fall, but you can see the rape coming up in that photo which I drop seeded after spraying the field with glyphosate. The rape go anywhere from four inches to over knee high by late fall and the deer have been pounding it. They should have it pretty well cleaned up in another month or two and then I could frost seed the CIR if I decide to do that. On the fourth side you will see an elelctric fence. I will try to post this on the tree planting thread too, with more pictures and more information. I know someone recently asked about electric fencing for keeping deer out of tree plantings on that thread. We have 8.1 acres enclosed with a 8 strand high tensile 7,000+ volt electric fence. We have 2500+ white cedars within the enclosure. It keeps 90% of the deer out, so hopefully in 10 years or so when the cedar are big enough we can take the fence down and let the deer enjoy them! The absolutely love white cedar esp. from late fall through early spring for browse and it makes great cover and bedding too! If you have any deer at all, you must somehow keep them off or no chance they will survive.
Anyway, would it be better to plant this field with CIR or more trees, shrubbs, etc. I want the best bedding area we can have. Switchgrass or trees/shrubs?
thanks
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