dbltree
Super Moderator
I would just leave it and more then likely you won't need to spray anything next spring either but that is an option.
It's only if you have large areas that have no switch at all that spot spraying may be needed.
I would just leave it and more then likely you won't need to spray anything next spring either but that is an option.
It's only if you have large areas that have no switch at all that spot spraying may be needed.
dbltree
Super Moderator
I've been helping my friend Walt establish native grasses on some rough poor old pasture ground that has required a lot of "leg work" by the both of us but...it's paying off! :way:
We've done it all by hand,clearing trees, spraying glyphosate, broadcasting seed and spraying on atrazine...
No tractors, no drills, no tilling no anything but good old fashioned hard work!
No fertilizer no lime...nothing but spray and seed...
No mowing...not a lick! Sure is some pretty Cave In Rock switchgrass!
In this case due to time contsraints and costshare limitations we had frost seeded during late winter, sprayed the sod in early spring with gly and let er go the first summer...
This past spring Walt hit it once again in early spring with a glyphosate and atrazine cocktail
That cleared the way for the switch to flourish!
It's amazing how easy it really is to frost seed native grasses and how much you can do with a bag seeder and a backpack sprayer! Nearly 7 acres in this case :way:
I still get a few people who are bound and determined to work everything up and plant it in June but you know what they say..."you can lead a horse to water but...you shore nuff can't make em drink...
We've done it all by hand,clearing trees, spraying glyphosate, broadcasting seed and spraying on atrazine...
No tractors, no drills, no tilling no anything but good old fashioned hard work!
No fertilizer no lime...nothing but spray and seed...
No mowing...not a lick! Sure is some pretty Cave In Rock switchgrass!
In this case due to time contsraints and costshare limitations we had frost seeded during late winter, sprayed the sod in early spring with gly and let er go the first summer...
This past spring Walt hit it once again in early spring with a glyphosate and atrazine cocktail
That cleared the way for the switch to flourish!
It's amazing how easy it really is to frost seed native grasses and how much you can do with a bag seeder and a backpack sprayer! Nearly 7 acres in this case :way:
I still get a few people who are bound and determined to work everything up and plant it in June but you know what they say..."you can lead a horse to water but...you shore nuff can't make em drink...
whitetail fanatic
Member
I have emailed some more pictures of our first year CIR SG to dbltree and I hope he can post them below for me. Thanks dbltree! The early picture was from 6-28-09 and the recent pictures were taken on 8-24-09. If you are interested you can see more pictures and read more about how we prepared and planted this plot in my earlier posts (post #321 on 5-30-09 and post #348 on 7-2-09). One of the photos below was in my post on 7-2-09 and shows what our SG looked like earlier this summer on June 28. It looks pretty sparse, but it was short and early in the growth stage then. I never imagined that it would get as tall and thick as it is now. I'm 5'-11" tall and as you can see in the recent photos, taken on 8-24-09, it is up to my chest and thick! Here in SW Wisconsin we had the coldest July on record, as well as the 7th dryest July on record, so that didn't help SG growth the best either. We finally got some good rains and heat in August and it really took off then. The biggest lesson I learned this year is that if you control weeds, first year SG will grow like crazy. I never expected this good of results, next year and after will be amazing!
I also have some photos of the 4.4 acres we have been preparing to frost seed SG this coming winter. We did a lot of things wrong with our planting earlier this year, but next years will be done the right way by killing the existing vegetation now and frost seeding later this winter. We mowed the area several times and sprayed it with glyphosate on August 2. A few days later I "drop seeded" dwarf essex rape seed from our old grain drill. This shows how easily rape will grow. With no tillage and simply dropping the seed on the surface, rape will start to grow after a decent rain. The deer will have the rape eaten down by mid winter, and it will be perfect for frost seeding the SG seed in February. I wanted to grow rape in this area so there would be something besides dead vegetation this fall and winter. Now it will be over 4 acres of an attractive food source for the deer and turkeys.
I also have some photos of the 4.4 acres we have been preparing to frost seed SG this coming winter. We did a lot of things wrong with our planting earlier this year, but next years will be done the right way by killing the existing vegetation now and frost seeding later this winter. We mowed the area several times and sprayed it with glyphosate on August 2. A few days later I "drop seeded" dwarf essex rape seed from our old grain drill. This shows how easily rape will grow. With no tillage and simply dropping the seed on the surface, rape will start to grow after a decent rain. The deer will have the rape eaten down by mid winter, and it will be perfect for frost seeding the SG seed in February. I wanted to grow rape in this area so there would be something besides dead vegetation this fall and winter. Now it will be over 4 acres of an attractive food source for the deer and turkeys.
Last edited by a moderator:
dbltree
Super Moderator
That's some absoutely beautiful switchgrass Wes! Another perfect example of what using residual herbicides can accomplish!
Kudos for preparing for next winters switch seeding, so keep us posted on how that works out as well.
One small caution...brassicas can have strong allelopathic chemicals that sometimes inhibit small seeds from growing. I think this is more so in turnips, radishes and mustards but I have heard of NWSG seedings failing because of brassicas being planted there first.
Keep us posted on this seeding and take note of how tall and thick the rape gets this fall, if deer eat it etc. I think it's worse if the dead leaves lay all over the ground versus being eaten off early in the fall.
Kudos for preparing for next winters switch seeding, so keep us posted on how that works out as well.
One small caution...brassicas can have strong allelopathic chemicals that sometimes inhibit small seeds from growing. I think this is more so in turnips, radishes and mustards but I have heard of NWSG seedings failing because of brassicas being planted there first.
Keep us posted on this seeding and take note of how tall and thick the rape gets this fall, if deer eat it etc. I think it's worse if the dead leaves lay all over the ground versus being eaten off early in the fall.
whitetail fanatic
Member
quote: "That's some absoutely beautiful switchgrass Wes!"
Thanks Paul, and thanks for all your advice and help with getting this plot to work out the way it did.
quote: "One small caution...brassicas can have strong allelopathic chemicals that sometimes inhibit small seeds from growing. I think this is more so in turnips, radishes and mustards but I have heard of NWSG seedings failing because of brassicas being planted there first."
So what do you think I should do? Go ahead and frost seed this winter and hope for the best or put off seeding the SG for another year? I don't really want to put it off but if the rape will cause a germination failure, it would not be worth seeding this winter. Has anyone had experience with seeding switchgrass or any other NWSG after rape has been grown in the same spot? If so what happened? I know the deer wil eat the rape up. We always plant a few acres around July 20 and it gets "thigh high" by late fall and the deer eat it down to the dirt by January, so there won't be much if any leaves still on the ground by late winter. The stems get bigger around than a man's thumb, and they eat them down to within a few inches of the ground. Also, weeds always seem to grow ok in our rape food plots the following year, such as lambs quarter and foxtail to name a few. Does that mean that SG would also germinate ok?
thanks
Thanks Paul, and thanks for all your advice and help with getting this plot to work out the way it did.
quote: "One small caution...brassicas can have strong allelopathic chemicals that sometimes inhibit small seeds from growing. I think this is more so in turnips, radishes and mustards but I have heard of NWSG seedings failing because of brassicas being planted there first."
So what do you think I should do? Go ahead and frost seed this winter and hope for the best or put off seeding the SG for another year? I don't really want to put it off but if the rape will cause a germination failure, it would not be worth seeding this winter. Has anyone had experience with seeding switchgrass or any other NWSG after rape has been grown in the same spot? If so what happened? I know the deer wil eat the rape up. We always plant a few acres around July 20 and it gets "thigh high" by late fall and the deer eat it down to the dirt by January, so there won't be much if any leaves still on the ground by late winter. The stems get bigger around than a man's thumb, and they eat them down to within a few inches of the ground. Also, weeds always seem to grow ok in our rape food plots the following year, such as lambs quarter and foxtail to name a few. Does that mean that SG would also germinate ok?
thanks
whitetail fanatic
Member
Dbltree, I think you usually recommend about 5 or 6 pounds PLS of CIR SG per acre, correct? If you could afford it, would it be better to use a higher rate? If so, what would be the best rate to frost seed to make it most appealing to deer? Would 7, 8, 9 or 10 pounds PLS per acre be better?
Also, is there much difference in the quality of CIR SG seed depending on where we buy it from or is it all pretty much equal as long as we get it from one of the reputable seed dealers? Is it better to order the seed in the fall or later during mid winter, or does it not really matter. It seems like I read somewhere that if you buy in the fall you might get seed that's almost a year old but if you buy during the winter, it would probably be fresh seed. Just wondering if that matters at all.
thanks again
Also, is there much difference in the quality of CIR SG seed depending on where we buy it from or is it all pretty much equal as long as we get it from one of the reputable seed dealers? Is it better to order the seed in the fall or later during mid winter, or does it not really matter. It seems like I read somewhere that if you buy in the fall you might get seed that's almost a year old but if you buy during the winter, it would probably be fresh seed. Just wondering if that matters at all.
thanks again
dbltree
Super Moderator
personally I think 5-6#'s is enough to end up with a good thick robust stand but I can't honestly say that 8#'s is better or worse. I have seen some switch that was planted very thick and I really don't think that's an advantage to wildlife as it discourages movement.
The height is what hides them and they need a little room to walk thru it and make beds in it but the only way to know for sure is to try sowing different rates in different areas, side by side and see where the most beds end up being..then report back and let us know...
IMO John Osenbaugh (Prairie Seed Farms) has the best CIR just because I have planted CIR purchased from other sources (grown who knows where) and it's just not the same.
That's not to say there isn't plenty of good CIR seed out there, that's just what I have found and I certainly have not tried and tested every source of CIR seed.
I think that eco-types (those grown closest to your area) may work a little better and Johns farm is not that far from where I live so that could be the reason I like his better?
Seed bought now will be a year old and less dormant but dormancy is not an issue when frost seeding, so either is fine. I suspect prices may go down slightly when new seed is harvested but bad weather could cause problems and prices could rise so it's always a bit of a crap shoot.
I have a list of seed sources on the front page so you can call around and see what suppliers think and check for sales or price breaks on year old seed...
Frost seeding after a fall burn
We are going to burning some crp this fall to encourage forbs/wildflowers. What are your thoughts of frost seeding switchgrass on a portion of it as a screen ( we have neighbors that believe they can shoot anywhere as long as they are standing on their land) and lightly overseeding the rest ? Would it help to lightly disk after the burn? I can't identify what is in their now, it was planted in '96 and has mostly cool season grasses. Thanks in advance for all of your info on these forums, can't wait to go put my plots in this weekend.
We are going to burning some crp this fall to encourage forbs/wildflowers. What are your thoughts of frost seeding switchgrass on a portion of it as a screen ( we have neighbors that believe they can shoot anywhere as long as they are standing on their land) and lightly overseeding the rest ? Would it help to lightly disk after the burn? I can't identify what is in their now, it was planted in '96 and has mostly cool season grasses. Thanks in advance for all of your info on these forums, can't wait to go put my plots in this weekend.
dbltree
Super Moderator
I like your idea but you may want to kill the sod with glyphosate right now to give the switch a fighting chance (or spray it early in April after you burn)
To bad you couldn't work on converting all of it to native grasses! Maybe a little each year? :way:
Now that I have a good start in getting my Switchgrass plots growing I am beginning to look down the road to make sure those plots last for a long time. I have read many post that after a few years the best way to control weeds in Switchgrass is by burning. My problem is my plots are surrounded by National Forest's and my visit with the resident ranger did not go well. He stated they would never give me a burn permit at my location during that time of year!
So, I need to find another way to keep the Switchgrass healthy and weed free. My first thought would be to mow the SG plots every other year in early spring, (or if needed every year) this should allow new growth and help re-seed from the plants them self. One question regarding this is if I use a brush hog will the remaining trash effect (smoother) the SG plants if I do not remove it? As far as weed control, is it still OK to apply Atrazine in established SG plots? I believe I have read, that like corn Atrazine has no effect on SG. I had very good luck with Atrazine this year and had very few weeds, so I would apply it each spring before the cool season grasses and other broadleaf plants begin to grow.
By following the above plan, should I be able to keep my SG plots healthy and growing vigorously weed free?
So, I need to find another way to keep the Switchgrass healthy and weed free. My first thought would be to mow the SG plots every other year in early spring, (or if needed every year) this should allow new growth and help re-seed from the plants them self. One question regarding this is if I use a brush hog will the remaining trash effect (smoother) the SG plants if I do not remove it? As far as weed control, is it still OK to apply Atrazine in established SG plots? I believe I have read, that like corn Atrazine has no effect on SG. I had very good luck with Atrazine this year and had very few weeds, so I would apply it each spring before the cool season grasses and other broadleaf plants begin to grow.
By following the above plan, should I be able to keep my SG plots healthy and growing vigorously weed free?
hillrunner
PMA Member
If it is just weeds you are worried about then I would think a littlen 2-4d would do the trick in late may or so.
dbltree
Super Moderator
The reason that we have to burn is to remove the thick thatch that accumulates in native grass stands and eventually smothers itself. You can mow when the switch is dormant and try to chop the straw up and shred it around so that it can break down.
Short of cutting it and baling it, mowing is you only option.
You can use atrazine on switchgrass any time, year after year but hopfully mowing will do the trick...
Short of cutting it and baling it, mowing is you only option.
You can use atrazine on switchgrass any time, year after year but hopfully mowing will do the trick...
dbltree
Super Moderator
The key to establishing any native grass is killing any and all cool season grasses first because they tend to be the only thing that can really stand in the way of establishing a successful stand of natives.
They are very easy to kill this time of year and I sprayed mine several weeks ago with 2 quarts of glyphosate, one quart of crop oil and one ounce of Oust XP (optional) that will also give me a little residual control going into early spring.
I mowed it all first in mid August, allowed it to start to re-grow and then nailed it!
That combination is deadly and nuked the tough fescue and brome on this site.
Now I'll keep and eye on it and make sure everything is DEAD
We have lot's of growing time so after we have had some rain and things cool down a bit (the type of weather that encourages cool season grass) I'll go back and hit any surviving plants such as this one.
We sprayed this all with a backpack sprayer and it will all be frost seeded in late winter. I 'll be testing various residual herbicide rates including some non-restrcited herbicides such as Oust XP to see what switch can handle and offer some inexpensive and easy to purchase herbicide options.
If you kill everything well in the fall it is of course very easy to establish any natives with no herbicides at all by just clipping weeds the first year at 8-12" high as needed. Establishment will be slower but just as successful.
Another option is planting RR soybeans the year before converting a field to native, which leaves a clean, grass killed area to frost seed natives onto.
In my case killing sod leaves a nice mat of dead grass and a root system that helps hold my top soil until the natives get established.
Everything I am sharing in regards to establishment at this point will work for any native grass and forbs, it's only when we get to residual herbicides that we need to make some choices.
There is still time to kill grasses to prepare for frost seeding so...giterdone!
They are very easy to kill this time of year and I sprayed mine several weeks ago with 2 quarts of glyphosate, one quart of crop oil and one ounce of Oust XP (optional) that will also give me a little residual control going into early spring.
I mowed it all first in mid August, allowed it to start to re-grow and then nailed it!
That combination is deadly and nuked the tough fescue and brome on this site.
Now I'll keep and eye on it and make sure everything is DEAD
We have lot's of growing time so after we have had some rain and things cool down a bit (the type of weather that encourages cool season grass) I'll go back and hit any surviving plants such as this one.
We sprayed this all with a backpack sprayer and it will all be frost seeded in late winter. I 'll be testing various residual herbicide rates including some non-restrcited herbicides such as Oust XP to see what switch can handle and offer some inexpensive and easy to purchase herbicide options.
If you kill everything well in the fall it is of course very easy to establish any natives with no herbicides at all by just clipping weeds the first year at 8-12" high as needed. Establishment will be slower but just as successful.
Another option is planting RR soybeans the year before converting a field to native, which leaves a clean, grass killed area to frost seed natives onto.
In my case killing sod leaves a nice mat of dead grass and a root system that helps hold my top soil until the natives get established.
Everything I am sharing in regards to establishment at this point will work for any native grass and forbs, it's only when we get to residual herbicides that we need to make some choices.
There is still time to kill grasses to prepare for frost seeding so...giterdone!
dbltree
Super Moderator
Mike (Mbow) sent me a couple pics of his successful first year frost seed switchgrass seeding that I'd like to share along with a note of how and what he did...
Frost seeding works equally well for all natives grasses and native wildflowers (if there is an exception I am unaware of it) but the key as always is to prepare by killing the area well the fall before.
Planting RR soybeans is perhaps the supreme way to do this and the soybean stubble leaves a perfect seed bed to sow any natives by broadcasting seed or drilling into frozen sod if you prefer.
I have successfully established switchgrass, big bluestem, indiangrass, little bluestem and a number of forbs (wildflowers) via frost seeding on my own farm as well as for others for 15 years now.
Herbicides vary of course, atrazine is safe for switchgrass and big bluestem while Plateau and Panoramic are safe for most native mixes but hard on switchgrass.
You can establish native grasses with no residual herbicides by clipping weeds off the first year or two at 8-12" above the new seedlings.
Frost seeding works equally well for all natives grasses and native wildflowers (if there is an exception I am unaware of it) but the key as always is to prepare by killing the area well the fall before.
Planting RR soybeans is perhaps the supreme way to do this and the soybean stubble leaves a perfect seed bed to sow any natives by broadcasting seed or drilling into frozen sod if you prefer.
I have successfully established switchgrass, big bluestem, indiangrass, little bluestem and a number of forbs (wildflowers) via frost seeding on my own farm as well as for others for 15 years now.
Herbicides vary of course, atrazine is safe for switchgrass and big bluestem while Plateau and Panoramic are safe for most native mixes but hard on switchgrass.
You can establish native grasses with no residual herbicides by clipping weeds off the first year or two at 8-12" above the new seedlings.
dbltree
Super Moderator
I got down out of my stand Saturday a.m. after taking a doe and decided to check a trail cam and without much thought, cut across one of my switchgrass fields. I made it barely 80 yards into the field when a huge buck exploded from the tall switchgrass and in seconds was out of sight!
I was more then a little peeved at myself for walking right through the middle of their bedroom this time of year but also delighted to see the Cave In Rock being used just as I intended.
Over the years I have found that mature bucks are the most likely to use switchgrass for safe bedding while does are more inclined to use my hinge cut bedding areas. They like to be alone and away from any other activity and the tall native grasses are just the ticket.
A few days earlier I dragged another doe out following this runway thru the switch
The dense tallgrass makes a perfect hiding place and safe haven for mature bucks
My Cave In Rock switchgrass is the only tall nativegrass that I can count on to remain standing all winter and insure I hold bucks year around as well.
Just don't go exploring in it this time of year...
I was more then a little peeved at myself for walking right through the middle of their bedroom this time of year but also delighted to see the Cave In Rock being used just as I intended.
Over the years I have found that mature bucks are the most likely to use switchgrass for safe bedding while does are more inclined to use my hinge cut bedding areas. They like to be alone and away from any other activity and the tall native grasses are just the ticket.
A few days earlier I dragged another doe out following this runway thru the switch
The dense tallgrass makes a perfect hiding place and safe haven for mature bucks
My Cave In Rock switchgrass is the only tall nativegrass that I can count on to remain standing all winter and insure I hold bucks year around as well.
Just don't go exploring in it this time of year...
SEIowaDeerslayer
Well-Known Member
I have two 1 acre fields right now that are in winter rye, oats, and peas. I want plant CIR switchgrass in these fields...can I frost seed into the rye in february, spray with roundup at the first sign of greenup in april and be okay?
dbltree
Super Moderator
dbltree
Super Moderator
Preperation is the key to successful native grass establishment and killing any cool season grasses beforehand is crucial. Mowing in late August and killing the re-growth in mid to late September allows for a second kill in October if anything is missed.
I sprayed mine with a glyphosate, Oust XP and crop oil cocktail in September and this is what it looks like in November...stone cold dead!
The killed sod will hold the soil through the winter months and I will broadcast switchgrass seed in Febuary to allow time for the often dormant seed to statify allowing it to germinate as early as possible in the spring.
In my case I will be doing some test plots to compare different herbicides and rates including atrazine, simazine and Oust XP. I'll apply these residuals along with additional glyphosate in mid April to insure any new weed growth is killed and then kept killed!
Those that wil be planting on soybean stubble have already completed the "killing" steps and have a perfect seedbed ready to frost seed switchgrass or other natives into...
I sprayed mine with a glyphosate, Oust XP and crop oil cocktail in September and this is what it looks like in November...stone cold dead!
The killed sod will hold the soil through the winter months and I will broadcast switchgrass seed in Febuary to allow time for the often dormant seed to statify allowing it to germinate as early as possible in the spring.
In my case I will be doing some test plots to compare different herbicides and rates including atrazine, simazine and Oust XP. I'll apply these residuals along with additional glyphosate in mid April to insure any new weed growth is killed and then kept killed!
Those that wil be planting on soybean stubble have already completed the "killing" steps and have a perfect seedbed ready to frost seed switchgrass or other natives into...
I will be planting about 20 acres of switch this February. I am planting it for deer cover, I will be planting cave-in-rock variety. I ran across this blend and wanted to see if anyone had an opinion on it. It is being sold by a company owned by Don Higgins. I respect Don and his habitat management but also know people are trying to make a buck when they can. Does anyone think this would be a better deer cover mix than cave-in-rock. It says it gets up to 8ft.