Switchgrass

[hillrunner]

"work on my site prep and weed control this summer and then frost seed next winter "

that's what I'd do, Maybe plant beans this spring and frost seed into the stubble next winter.

 

[buckmagnet]

dbltree, got a question for you... I think you'll recall my post from last summer of the 15 ac.corn/swith I planted and posted pics of. I decided to leave the corn stand for more cover and the wind has knocked some of it down this winter. The switch came in pretty well in some areas and in other areas where the corn grew tall and thick its really thin. What would you recommend doing this spring? I would like to leave the corn in the field another year but not at the expense of the field turning to weeds. I've got the option of spraying over the top but I'm a little worried about the deer and other wildlife comsuming the corn after spraying chemicals. Any help would be apprectiated.

 

[buckmagnet]

dbltree, got a question for you... I think you'll recall my post from last summer of the 15 ac.corn/swith I planted and posted pics of. I decided to leave the corn stand for more cover and the wind has knocked some of it down this winter. The switch came in pretty well in some areas and in other areas where the corn grew tall and thick its really thin. What would you recommend doing this spring? I would like to leave the corn in the field another year but not at the expense of the field turning to weeds. I've got the option of spraying over the top but I'm a little worried about the deer and other wildlife comsuming the corn after spraying chemicals. Any help would be apprectiated.

 

[dbltree]

I wouldn't think the corn itself would interfer that much this year but if weeds invade in the thin spots you may have to mow.

Spraying would be tough with all that trash on top anyway.

Kind of uncharted territory leaving it for several years(corn) so all I can say is monitor weed growth versus the switchgrass progress and clip the whole mess if you have to this summer.

You could frost seed some switch into the bare spots right now too. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

[risto2351]

Don't know if this is the right place to put or not but did a burn a couple of weeks ago and the landowners got it planted with switchgrass and clover.


The start of the fire. Gov't job of course. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

Going good now.

Watching the fire.

One of the finished fields. We did approx. 50 acres. Not bad for some rookies. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

Of course we had to look for some sheds. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/grin.gif

 

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Of course we had to look for some sheds. </div></div>

Of course! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/cool.gif

Looks like you had lots of help, that's very important when doing a burn!

Thanks for sharing and keep us posted on how the new switchgrass seeding does... /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

[tomt]

Question for you dbltree. Frost seeded 30# of CIR last weekend. Darn snow finally going away!!!!!!!!
Can I substitute Princep vs. Atrazine this spring or did I read where you said it doesn't work as well?? My farmer friend has the Princep and no Atrazine.
Thanks.

 

[dbltree]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tomt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Question for you dbltree. Frost seeded 30# of CIR last weekend. Darn snow finally going away!!!!!!!!
Can I substitute Princep vs. Atrazine this spring or did I read where you said it doesn't work as well?? My farmer friend has the Princep and no Atrazine.
Thanks. </div></div>

Princep will work, just not quite as effectively. It's certainly better then no herbicide at all! /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

[dbltree]

I frost seeded some switchgrass last winter for a friend and then killed the sod early in April with roundup before the switchgrass came up.

Much of the brome and fescue was still dormant however despite appearing to be "greened up" and I re-sprayed much a second time in late April.

This points out the problems associated with "seed n spray" versus killing mowed, regrowth in September to prepare for winter seeding.

What does it look like now? Pretty typical of first year switchgrass...it's there albeit small and thin at this point.

Unfortunately we were not able to use any residual herbicide (atrazine) on this seeding nor were we able to mow it.

This resulted in plenty of competition from "junk" that seems to sprout up out of nowhere depsite to applications of roundup.

The thick mat of what appears to be fall panicum and other weeds/grasses slows native grass growth the first year.

This year we'll be able to mow it in a few weeks and apply atrazine to reduce weed competion

and encourage the young switchgrass seedlings

This switchgrass was planted in an old pasture which happens to be very poor clay soil. Switchgrass prefers moist loamy soil but fortunately will eventually take hold on poor soils, it just takes time.

When fertility levels can be brought up that certainly helps and after switchgrass is several years old, nitrogen applications will cause a flush of rapid strong growth.

Early on however nitrogen will only encourage competitive weeds and cool season grasses that can easily dominate the struggling switchgrass seedlings.

We'll keep an eye on this seeding in years to come but these pics at least give on a realistic idea of what to expect for growth the first year on unimproved soils. /forum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

[dbltree]

Switchgrass - Using Atrazine

Several people have expressed concerns/doubts about applying atrazine for weed control in switchgrass seedings, mostly about heavy rainfall.

Just to reassure...atrazine can be fall applied for instance on cut soybean ground where corn or sorghum will be planted the following spring.

So no worries about "too much rain"!

Atrazine should not be applied to frozen ground or bare soil that is highly erodible land in the fall where it might wash into waterways by spring.

Most switchgrass is planted in killed sod and spraying in very early April is not a problem at all. Rain is needed to incorporate the atrazine into the soil where the residual action prevents weed seeds from germinating.

Atrazine is NOT a contact herbicide and needs to be on the soil, not on foliage/surface trash to be effective.

Fall applied Atrazine label

Atrazine general label

PRINCIPAL USES: Atrazine is a widely used selective herbicide for
control of broadleaf and grassy weeds in corn, sorghum,
sugarcane, macadamia orchards, and turf grass sod. It is
used also in some areas for selective weed control in conifer
reforestation and Christmas tree plantations as well as for nonselective
control of vegetation in chemical fallow. Atrazine also is used as a
nonselective herbicide for vegetation control in noncrop land. Sugar-
beets, tobacco, oats, and many vegetable crops are very sensitive to
atrazine (56).

APPLICATION METHOD(S): Depending upon the crop or intended use,
atrazine sprays may be applied preplant, preemergence, or postemergence,
but before weed seedlings are more than 3.8 cm (1.5 inches) high with
few exceptions. These exceptions include postemergent application for
yellow nutsedge and Canada thistle control. Preemergence use is
generally the preferred method of application where it can be used.
Under dry conditions, a shallow incorporation may increase the degree of
weed control. A single lay-by cultivation is sometimes useful to
prevent relatively tolerant late season grasses from developing. Aerial
applications have been very successful, especially when wet weather
prevents the use of ground equipment and in cases where rough terrain
such as in conifer reforestation makes ground application impractical.
A liquified formulation containing 0.48 kg/l (4 lb ai/gal) has been
developed and is registered for weed control in conifers, corn,
chemical fallow, rangeland, sugarcane, and sorghum. A 90% water
dispersible granular formulation has been registered bearing the full
AAtrex label. Future registration of the 4L formulation is planned on
other crops. Postemergent application of the wettable powder, the
water dispersible granule or liquified formulation of atrazine is usually
made in combination with a nonphytotoxic crop oil, crop oil concentrate
or surfactant. These additions enhance the uptake of atrazine and hence
its activity (58). May be applied to corn in solution with liquid
nitrogen (8b).

I. EFFICACY
Important Weeds Controlled:
1. Crop areas - Barnyardgrass, mustards, chickweed, cocklebur,
crabgrass, downy brome, foxtail, jimsonweed, lambsquarters, nutgrass,
quackgrass, purslane, ragweed, velvetleaf, wild oats, and many others.
2. Total vegetation control - The above weeds plus bindweed, dock,
horsetail, milkweed, mullein, orchardgrass, plantain, quackgrass,
leafy spurge, Canada thistle, and many others (8b).
Moisture activates the chemical. Usually considered more toxic
than the other triazines. Will not control Johnsongrass or Bermudagrass.
Corn completely metabolizes it, not being injured. Effective on most
annual broadleaves for about three months. Resembles simazine, but is
faster acting under low rainfall conditions. Proven and used in all
climates (8b).

Do note that other plants like clover, alfalfa, oats, rye etc cannot be planted the year of atrazine application...they may germinate but then die shortly after!

I'm not a fan of atrazine in general but it is very effective in controlling weed/grass growth in the seeding year for switchgrass to allow it to become more rapidly established.

Proper application will ensure it does it's jobe without ending up in our drinking water...so follow labeled advice!

 

[whitetail fanatic]

dbltree,
You say Atrazine must be in the soil to work, not on vegetation. Does that mean that if I spray roundup and atrazine when the weeds are about 6 inches tall that the atrazine won't be as effective? Or will the atrazine still work it's way into the soil after being sprayed on vegetation that tall? Also, I'm sure you've answered this question many times already, but if you don't mind, what rates per acre do you recommend for roundup and atrazine on newly seeded switchgrass plantings?

Thanks

 

[dbltree]

dbltree,
You say Atrazine must be in the soil to work, not on vegetation. Does that mean that if I spray roundup and atrazine when the weeds are about 6 inches tall that the atrazine won't be as effective? Or will the atrazine still work it's way into the soil after being sprayed on vegetation that tall? Also, I'm sure you've answered this question many times already, but if you don't mind, what rates per acre do you recommend for roundup and atrazine on newly seeded switchgrass plantings?

Thanks

It will work it's way to the soil especially when roundup is used and existing "trash" isn't extensive.

If the field is 3 foot high foxtail leftover from last year then the atrazine is going to end up being absorbed by the dead grass stalks rather then on the soil surface.

Atrazine will only be effective when it can reach the soil itself, so mowing or burning before hand will do the trick. This is why frost seeding switch into a a field that was in RR soybeans the year before is very effective as the soil is already bare and free of trash.

I use roughly a quart of roundup (assuming sod has ben previously killed...2 quarts if not) and 3 quarts of atrazine per acre.

You could put on more atrazine and not hurt the switchgrass but it's best to follow the lable.....

 

[whitetail fanatic]

dbltree,
I remember reading somewhere (but I can't seem to find it now) about roundup being sold in different forms and the percentage of active ingredient in each. 40% sticks in my head for some reason, was that the amount of active ingredient in the strongest version? What's the best way to buy roundup? The local farm coop says they use "Touchdown". He said this is roundup with the sticking agent and anti-foaming stuff all in it. I could get that for $60 a gallon. Is there a cheaper or better way to buy it? Can I get just straight roundup and buy the sticking agent seperate and save a lot of money? If so, what do you recommend?

Also, I realize atrazine is a big help in growing switchgrass and I would like to use it, but I'm concerned about it's impacts on the environment, wildlife, and people. My question is, why is atrazine such a problem when compared to other herbicides? Is it just so much more toxic than other chemicals? Or is it because it takes longer to break down than other chemicals so then it can remain in soils longer and potentially end up in waterways or groundwater? Or is there another reason?

Also, if we kill existing grass in the late summer like suggested by mowing and later spraying with roundup, then frost seed in February or March, and spray again with roundup in early May before switchgrass is germinated, can we get good weed control without using atrazine or will the weeds come back thick later that summer? Would the weed control be good enough doing it that way that we would not have to mow weeds, or is that only possible with using atrazine?

Thanks for all your great advice on this thread! It is very helpful. We planted 2.5 acres of CIR a few weeks ago, but we did it the wrong way (tilled ground, probably too late to break all dormancy), so I'm already planning on more plots of CIR next year and want to do it the best we can! Kill the grass this fall, frost seed next winter, etc..

 

[dbltree]

dbltree,
I remember reading somewhere (but I can't seem to find it now) about roundup being sold in different forms and the percentage of active ingredient in each. 40% sticks in my head for some reason, was that the amount of active ingredient in the strongest version? What's the best way to buy roundup? The local farm coop says they use "Touchdown". He said this is roundup with the sticking agent and anti-foaming stuff all in it. I could get that for $60 a gallon. Is there a cheaper or better way to buy it? Can I get just straight roundup and buy the sticking agent seperate and save a lot of money? If so, what do you recommend?

Also, I realize atrazine is a big help in growing switchgrass and I would like to use it, but I'm concerned about it's impacts on the environment, wildlife, and people. My question is, why is atrazine such a problem when compared to other herbicides? Is it just so much more toxic than other chemicals? Or is it because it takes longer to break down than other chemicals so then it can remain in soils longer and potentially end up in waterways or groundwater? Or is there another reason?

Also, if we kill existing grass in the late summer like suggested by mowing and later spraying with roundup, then frost seed in February or March, and spray again with roundup in early May before switchgrass is germinated, can we get good weed control without using atrazine or will the weeds come back thick later that summer? Would the weed control be good enough doing it that way that we would not have to mow weeds, or is that only possible with using atrazine?

Thanks for all your great advice on this thread! It is very helpful. We planted 2.5 acres of CIR a few weeks ago, but we did it the wrong way (tilled ground, probably too late to break all dormancy), so I'm already planning on more plots of CIR next year and want to do it the best we can! Kill the grass this fall, frost seed next winter, etc..

41% glyphosate is the normal amount when comparing "apples to apples" and right now, TSC has a generic 41% glyphosate for $99 so check around.

Surfacants can be helpful but mostly to make the gly rainfast, so if you apply on a nice day IMO it's not that big of a deal. If your trying to kill some nasty old fescue then then AMS can be helpful but I wouldn't worry about it to much.

Anti foaming agents and all of that are important to commercial sprayers but I never have a problem in small equipment.


In then end, just make sure it is 41% or more when checking prices...

Atrazine... is no more "toxic" then any other pesticide (herbicide) the problem is that we use it on nearly every acre of corn planted in this nation! That means that nationwide we are using perhaps 1000's of TONS of atrazine that if not used correctly can wash in to our waterways and eventually into our drinking water.

The little dab you apply once on a switchgrass seeing doesn't amount to anything and because it's usually used on killed sod it is extremely unlikely to wash anywhere. The important aspect is, that you are establishing a long tern native grass that will help reverse the impact of soil erosion and the possibility of not only atrazine but nitrates ending up in the Gulf of Mexico.

Use it once, use it wisely and...no worries...

Keep us posted on how your new plot does, if you control weeds and it germinates at all it will do great...

 

[Sligh1]

Question (scenario 1st)- I have a very wierd neighbor that I am trying to screen a 8' strip that is about 100 yards long along our fence. He also spooks the deer when he's outside of his house SO a screen would at least help that. He burns that area and burns on my side of the fence. That burning has killed all the trees I've planted well into my side.

Would you plant switchgrass as a screen???? Obviously it's ok with burning, think it would do what I want it to with only 8' strip (100 yard long). Or would you go with something like an Autumn Olive which is somewhat fireproof? Thanks!

 

[dbltree]

Question (scenario 1st)- I have a very wierd neighbor that I am trying to screen a 8' strip that is about 100 yards long along our fence. He also spooks the deer when he's outside of his house SO a screen would at least help that. He burns that area and burns on my side of the fence. That burning has killed all the trees I've planted well into my side.

Would you plant switchgrass as a screen???? Obviously it's ok with burning, think it would do what I want it to with only 8' strip (100 yard long). Or would you go with something like an Autumn Olive which is somewhat fireproof? Thanks!

I would do both Skip...switchgrass and most shrubs are immune to fire while red cedars are easily killed with fire.

 

[whitetail fanatic]

Has anyone ever tried "strikeout extra". It's a generic 41% glyphosate with 15% surfactant I found on ebay for a good price, $110/2.5gal with shipping.

dbltree,
If I use 2 quarts of 41% glyphosate and 2-3 quarts of atrazine per acre for switchgrass, does it matter how much water I mix this with? I've been told 15-20 gallons of water plus the chemical per acre would be good. Does that sound right or what amount of water per acre do you recommend for switchgrass when spraying a roundup/atrazine mix?

thanks again!

 

[dbltree]

Has anyone ever tried "strikeout extra". It's a generic 41% glyphosate with 15% surfactant I found on ebay for a good price, $110/2.5gal with shipping.

dbltree,
If I use 2 quarts of 41% glyphosate and 2-3 quarts of atrazine per acre for switchgrass, does it matter how much water I mix this with? I've been told 15-20 gallons of water plus the chemical per acre would be good. Does that sound right or what amount of water per acre do you recommend for switchgrass when spraying a roundup/atrazine mix?

thanks again!

The amount of wather is relevant only to the calibration of your sprayer. Commonly sprayers (and hence herbicide labels) put on roughly 20 gallons per acre. This can vary of course depending on groundspeed, pressure, nozzle type, etc., so you need to calibrate your sprayer, find out how much water per acre is being applied ans then add the appropriate amount of product.

If you applying 2 quarts per acre of product then it doesn't matter if you apply 10 or a 100 gallons of water per acre...but you have to KNOW that before mixing it....

Make sense?

Check the herbicide thread for links to sprayer calibration

 

[whitetail fanatic]

We are planning to do 4 more acres of CIR next year. If we get a good kill on the existing grass late this summer by mowing a couple times and spraying the regrowth in late August/September, would it be better to broadcast the CIR seed in Late November/Early December, or wait until February/March? What are the pros/cons of seeding in late fall vs. mid winter? Also, if we prepare the site correctly by killing the existing grass and weeds this way, broadcast seed sometime betweeen December and February, and spray again in late April/Early May with roundup/atrazine mixture, would we gain anything by using more than 6 pounds pls of CIR per acre or would that just be a waste of seed and money?

thanks again!

 

[dbltree]

We are planning to do 4 more acres of CIR next year. If we get a good kill on the existing grass late this summer by mowing a couple times and spraying the regrowth in late August/September, would it be better to broadcast the CIR seed in Late November/Early December, or wait until February/March? What are the pros/cons of seeding in late fall vs. mid winter? Also, if we prepare the site correctly by killing the existing grass and weeds this way, broadcast seed sometime betweeen December and February, and spray again in late April/Early May with roundup/atrazine mixture, would we gain anything by using more than 6 pounds pls of CIR per acre or would that just be a waste of seed and money?

thanks again!

I have seeded both fall and winter and like others who have tried both it seems that late Janurary thru mid March seems to get a better germination rate then fall seedings. So IMO I would seed mid winter during a thaw on bare ground or at least no more then a few inches of snow.

One pound of seed sown at the proper time on properly prepared ground (sod killed previous to planting) and weeds controlled with herbicide is worth more then 100#'s planted the wrong time under the wrong conditions.

Would a higher seeding rate be beneficial? Perhaps...but more then likely you might just be throwing money away.

I would say this....like clover or any other seed, broadcast rates can be slightly higher then drilled seeding rates. A no-till drill on frozen sod will cut thru residue and allow seed to make soil contact whereas broadcasting some seed may land on surface residue and never reach the soil.

Perhaps broadcasting one might bump the rate up a pound or two but that's a luxery I was never able to afford.

Just a reminder for those thinking way a head....consider planting Roundup Ready Soybeans or corn with roundup/atrazine to get a complete grass kill and leave a relatively clean soil surface to seed into next winter....